Should CFL teams retire numbers of stars?

[Robbie]

This is a great great great topic. And this post is a bit of a repeat but I hope it brings some more things into focus.

Here are seven questions that are asked in the evaluation process of whether or not to retire a number:

1) Are they a Hall of Famer?
2) Did they help a team win a championship?
3) Do they meet a longevity threshold for tenure with the team?
4) Did they have significant statistical/award based achievements with the team?
5) Are they from, or did they make a significant contribution to the community?
6) Was there some sort of tragedy?
7) Can I piggyback that retirement in on someone else?

Unless you're an absolutist, you can use this criteria to determine when you get enough Yes answers to justify a number retirement, I think. You don't have to weigh these questions equally, either. But, to me, there is clearly a threshold here to justify circumstances under which a number is retired.

#5.
While it's always a nice and kind gesture if a player reaches out to the community off the field, from a fan's perspective it is still of secondary importance compared to his performance on the field. There is already a commendation award for players who reach out to the community in the form of the Tom Pate Memorial Award, and a fair amount of Lions have won the award:

2016 - Marco Iannuzzi
2006 - Mark Washington
2003 - Steve Hardin
1999 - Jamie Taras
1992 - Danny Barrett
1989 - Matt Dunigan
1986 - Tyrone Crews

Whenever there's a discussion on top, best, favourite players will these players be often mentioned? Unlikely.

And with the exception of #60 - Jamie Taras who had a long tenure and an all-star, will these players have their numbers retired? Unlikely.

And in two cases, winning the award didn't improve the fans perspective of him.

In 1992 Danny Barrett was a huge disappointment in that he was expected to effectively replace Doug Flutie as the Lions starting QB, and that he failed to do.

After the 1989 season, Matt Dunigan got into a huge dispute with the new management led by Joe Kapp on bonus money he expected to receive after all his community work. When he didn't receive the expected bonus money, he demanded a trade.

#6.
While it's always very sad and tragic when somebody passes away, there are other ways to give tribute than to retire their number. Perhaps a small memorial inside the stadium can suffice as a number retirement banner should be reserved for his on-field performance and dedication to his team and not act as his tombstone.

In some cases, it can cause more trouble, controversy, and confusion. The first number that the Vancouver Canucks retired (unofficially) was #11 Wayne Maki who played 2.5 seasons from 1970-72 but there was definitely no banner hung so Canucks fan may be confused as to why his number was retired. The number was retired as a tribute for Wayne Maki because he passed away of brain cancer and most Canucks fans may not know about that. And then controversy occurred when Mark Messier arrived to the team in 1997 and was given #11 after the number was supposedly retired.

[Toppy Vann]

A correction in my claim there are 100 numbers to choose from for football. There's actually 101 as you can have 0 and 00 plus 1-99. Read that after I posted the number.

My bottom line are the Irvin statements where he gets to hear his name on TV everytime the guy wearing his number makes a catch or drops a ball. Retire that number and that's guy not easily recalled mid-game when a great play happens.

Cromartie adds some great questions and not all would escape a debate.

Several of these questions such as contribution to the community plus Hambone's ""
two variables: Tenure vs. Performance.

I'm a fan of ensuring fans don't lose sight of the alumni of the team and that alone would be a project to keep a viable list of those who played and their contributions to any pro team as large as football.

It'd be great to see the alumni list broken down into more categories such as longevity on the team and community contributions etc. So much you can do online these days.

There's always a fair amount of debate when it comes to honouring a player when there are two variables: Tenure vs. Performance.

An interesting comparison is if you consider a CFL player has been honoured by the league by winning Most Outstanding Player and inducted into the Canadian Football Hall of Fame but has NOT been honoured by any his individual teams by having his name and number retired. This occurs if the player while good was very nomadic and would change teams often so he didn't establish a strong tenure with his team.

[Robbie]

Several of these questions such as contribution to the community plus Hambone's ""
two variables: Tenure vs. Performance.

That is actually my quote, not Hambone's.

[Robbie]

These are the numbers and their players that have been honoured by the Elks and at 35, that's a heck of a lot more than the Lions 10 on their own Ring of Honour.

Also on the contrary, despite their long history the Calgary Stampeders only have 7 players with retired numbers:
https://www.stampeders.com/retired-numbers/

Of those 7, #5 Harry Hood was done out of sympathy when he passed away of cancer despite playing only five seasons, while the others played 8+ seasons as a Stampeder.

I'd say these players would definitely have their numbers retired in the future given their championships, awards, and above all their relative long tenure:

#19 - Bo Levi Mitchell (2012–2022)
#9 - Jon Cornish (2007–2015)
#25 - Dave Sapunjis (1990-1997)

And who unfortunately may not have their numbers retired despite their MOP and Grey Cup wins because of their shorter tenure:

#20 - Doug Flutie (1992-1995)
#15 - Dave Dickenson (1997-2000, 2008)

[cromartie]

#6.
While it's always very sad and tragic when somebody passes away, there are other ways to give tribute than to retire their number. Perhaps a small memorial inside the stadium can suffice as a number retirement banner should be reserved for his on-field performance and dedication to his team and not act as his tombstone.

In some cases, it can cause more trouble, controversy, and confusion. The first number that the Vancouver Canucks retired (unofficially) was #11 Wayne Maki who played 2.5 seasons from 1970-72 but there was definitely no banner hung so Canucks fan may be confused as to why his number was retired. The number was retired as a tribute for Wayne Maki because he passed away of brain cancer and most Canucks fans may not know about that. And then controversy occurred when Mark Messier arrived to the team in 1997 and was given #11 after the number was supposedly retired.[q/quote]

No Detroit Red Wing will ever wear 16 again. However, it isn't retired, just removed from circulation. If you're never going to issue it again because of the tragedy of Vladamir Konstantinov, hang it from the rafters.

[Robbie]

The topic of comparing CFL stadiums was mentioned before in my CFL Stadiums thread:
viewtopic.php?t=14142

But I'll give an update with help from https://www.stadiumjourney.com/cfl

Just like how different teams have their own rules and policy on which players should be honoured with a number retirement, what is also very different is HOW each team and their stadium would honour such a person. And one can easily argue that in some cases the presentation is much more formal and articulate while others are much more informal and casual. I wonder if the honoured players who have more informal presentation will feel offended and jealous for those who have more formal presentations. That's somewhat similar to how the individual CFL award trophies have changed through the years and some of them were bigger and more decorative than others.

Here are some pictures which I found for the various CFL stadiums on HOW some of the honoured player is portrayed.

McMahon Stadium for the Calgary Stampeders



Each player has a sign placed above the grandstand on the walls of where the private suites and press boxes are constructed. And it looks like #20 Doug Flutie is retired after all - or maybe it's just an Wall of Fame entry although by providing the number it does imply that the number is retired.


Commonwealth Stadium for the Edmonton Eskimos


Individual banners for each player showing their name, number, years played, and an actual action photo them hung from the roof of an inner concourse.


Tim Hortons Field for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats


Each honoured player has a detailed but very small plaque with a formal writeup and appears to be placed in a pillar OUTSIDE of the stadium itself.


Percival Molson Memorial Stadium for the Montreal Alouettes


An entry on the ring between the upper and lower grandstands. But not very detailed and it doesn't list the player's full name nor the years he served.


TD Place Stadium for the Ottawa RedBlacks


The retired players are placed on a billboard and hung on a fence. As an aside, all 10 are part of the old Ottawa Rough Riders franchise. I'd say this is very informal as it doesn't show the players full name nor years played.


Mosaic Stadium for the Saskatchewan Roughriders


Inside the inner concourse, each player has their own personalized, decorated pillar essentially in the form of a mural with its picture and a detailed writeup.


BMO Field for the Toronto Argonauts


One long banner placed on the wall under the press box above the grandstand showing the numbers and last names of all honoured players. It looks like #2 Doug Flutie is honoured after all. LIke the others, no full names nor years listed.


Princess Auto Stadium for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers


Hard to see but there appears to be a Ring of Honour under the upper grandstand.

Old BC Place in the late 1980's

For the old BC Place, I'll show you how the first six Lions were honoured in the 1980's via this 1988 Lions game video. On the wall behind the Lions bench separating the spectators were individual banners showing the number and name along with the Lions logo but it didn't provide any more information such as their years as a Lion. I'd say it was rather plain back in those days and also, there was no commemoration of the Lions 1964 and 1985 Grey Cup wins either.



At 12:31, you will see the banners for:
#30 Jim Young
#15 Willie Fleming
#75 Norm Fieldgate
#52 Al Wilson
#38 By Bailey

And at 16:25 you can clearly see the one for:
#22 Joe Kapp


---------------------------

I know, no current pictures of BC Place. But hey, if Doug Flutie is honoured in Toronto and Calgary, should he be honoured at BC as well and have two players honoured for #22?

So it looks like each team and their stadiums have their own unique and special way to honour their players with retired numbers. One can play devil's advocate and say that some presentations appear to be "better" than others.

For the stadiums in Calgary, Winnipeg, Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa one can simply sit inside the stadium and see their honoured players - although the presentation in Calgary and possibly Winnipeg is more formal in that it shows the players full name, number, and years served in a large, clear way. Whereas in Toronto, Montreal, and Ottawa it's in a much more informal way in that it only shows the number and last name without full name or years.

In Edmonton and Saskatchewan, one has to walk in the inner concourse and search to find the honoured number be it in the form of a banner or pillar. But the presentation is fairly good in that it includes a picture of the player and a detailed writeup in the case of the Roughriders.

In Hamilton, a formal plaque with a writeup for each player is good but it's very small and has to be searched for to be found.

IMHO, overall the presentations for Calgary and Saskatchewan are the best.

[Coast Mountain Lion]

A correction in my claim there are 100 numbers to choose from for football. There's actually 101 as you can have 0 and 00 plus 1-99. Read that after I posted the number.

Except, unless I'm mistaken, current league rules allow a team to have a 0 or a 00 but not both at the same time.

[Hambone]

I've kind of settled in the idea of the Ring of Honour being more than enough. Retiring numbers should be reserved for only the most exceptional of the exceptional. The concept of the Ring of Honour came along well after the practice of retiring numbers. I wonder how many numbers would be retired if the Ring of Honour predated retiring of numbers?

Some NHL teams, mostly newer ones, almost went out of their way to find an excuse to retire a number just so they could say they did. Edmonton Oilers retired Al Hamilton's #3 shortly after they moved to the NHL based on his WHA days. With Buffalo prior to jumping to the WHA he was just a solid d-man. Nothing spectacular. Washington retired Yvon Labre's #7. Other than being an original Cap and team captain for 3 years he was just a journeyman calibre d-man. I still don't get Colorado retiring Ray Bourque's #77. He played over 20-3/4 seasons in Boston before finishing the last 1-1/4 with Colarado to finally get a ring

[Robbie]

I still don't get Colorado retiring Ray Bourque's #77. He played over 20-3/4 seasons in Boston before finishing the last 1-1/4 with Colarado to finally get a ring.

That's an excellent example which I was going to bring up as well. I suppose there were two reasons. First as an way to celebrate their 2001 Stanley Cup win. And the other is because the Avalanche were still a relatively new team after moving there from Quebec in 1995 and they could afford to retire a number and this was an excuse to retire a player's number for the very first time. And one can argue that it's an insult to their legacy in that four Quebec Nordiques players who had their number retired were un-retired after the move, most notably:

#26 - Peter Stastny - 1980–1990

-----------------------------

There is a very unique and distinctive aspect that I noticed about the 10 Lions on the Ring of Honour and their retired numbers:

#5 - Lui Passaglia - 1976–2000
#15 - Willie Fleming - 1959–1966
#22 - Joe Kapp - 1961–1966
#30 - Jim Young - 1967–1979
#38 - Byron Bailey - 1954–1964
#52 - Al Wilson - 1972–1986
#60 - Jamie Taras - 1987–2002
#75 - Norm Fieldgate - 1954–1967
#81 - Geroy Simon - 2001–2012
#97 - Brent Johnson - 2001–2011

The unique and distinctive aspect is the fact that they are NOT honoured by any other CFL team by having their number retired for that other team as well. Of those 10 honoured players, 8 of them only played for the BC Lions in their entire CFL career. Whereas Joe Kapp played a little bit for the Calgary Stampeders and Geroy Simon played a little bit for the Winnipeg Blue Bombers and also for the Saskatchewan Roughriders and even won a Grey Cup with them. But will Kapp and Simon also have their numbers retired by those other teams? No way.

As such, this list is very exclusive in that when one thinks of these 10 players, they are immediately associated with the BC Lions. Whereas there are many other good BC Lions who are also Hall of Famers but are also honoured by other CFL teams and as such maybe they should NOT be honoured with a retired number because the fact that they did well for other teams will cloud their views about them from a fans perspective.

If there's going to be an 11th player added to the Ring of Honour, it will likely be:

#14 - Travis Lulay - 2009-2018

Given his relatively long tenure and the fact that he didn't play for any other CFL team.

This will not be the case for the other famous #14 for the Lions:

#14 - Danny McManus - 1993-1995

Who while doing fairly well for the Lions only had three years with the team and who also played for five other CFL teams and did very well in his other teams, most notably as a Hamilton Tiger-Cat where is inducted on the Wall of Honour at Tim Hortons Field:

[Coast Mountain Lion]

If there's going to be an 11th player added to the Ring of Honour, it will likely be:

#14 - Travis Lulay - 2009-2018

Given his relatively long tenure and the fact that he didn't play for any other CFL team.

Definitely. I would also suggest #64 - Angus Reid
They haven't had a consistent and reliable starting centre since he retired

Also #4 - Paul McCallum. Despite the latter having kicked back and forth between the Lions and the Riders a few times.