Lions at Ticats Oct. 13, 2023

[zeppo]

I've included both videos above for comparisons and I'm sure you agree that the 2012 game ended in the same circumstances and yet in that game, the referee allowed the clock to go to 0 officially ending the game without allowing the Stampeders one last play for a field goal attempt.

The officials made a brutal call in that 2012 game. If the same thing were to happen today, a correction would be made by the
Command Centre. Lewis was down on one knee with three seconds left, and was touched on the shoulder by an Alouette with one
second showing on the television timer.

[Toppy Vann]

Toppy Vann wrote: ↑Fri Oct 13, 2023 9:17 pm
Not sure why Vernon Adams got involved in that INT return. Foolish and unnecessary.

Robbie:

At least he wasn't a victim of what former CFL DT James Curry would do whenever there's a turnover as he would immediately make a hard hit on the quarterback which would likely injure the quarterback - with the best such example occurring early in the 1987 season when he did that to then-Argonauts QB John Congemi.

This reminds me of a Lions -Bombers game in WPG in the early 90s when Lui Passaglia, Glen Jackson and Lyall Woznesensky were on my staff - Lui was part time.

Back at work Lui and I were discussing the game:

Lui: Did you see James West on that punt?
Me: No, I didn't.
Lui: Neither did I.

You still see some guys looking for the QB or the kickers on plays if they are close to the play.
The new rules are more QB friendly and also with head shots on a defenceless play.
While TV didn't show a great clip of what happened with VA, it was pretty clear that it was a major collision where more than one Ticat was involved.

If there was any good on the VA hit (maybe poor phrasing as I mean him no harm as he's the reason the Lions are where they are this year) it was good to see Dane Evans get some meaningful reps. With Adams running an offence designed only for the likes of Michael Reilly, Rourke and VA, BC is right up by 1st place. In fact, if White had a chance within range to hit a FG in that Bombers game BC would be in first place now.


Quite frankly, if the coach has any confidence in Dane Evans to actually play, it's imperative he get some playing time for no other reasons than just in case and also evaluation for next year.

[B.C.FAN]

I was relieved to hear that J.C. Abbott and his Earl Marriott high school team survived a bus crash without major injuries yesterday, and Abbott still filed his always-insightful thoughts on the game, which expand on many of the points raised in this thread and add some new ones.

https://3downnation.com/2023/10/14/lion ... -hamilton/

[maxlion]

At the start of the year, I thought there was a good chance that Evans would have supplanted Adams as starter by this point in the season. Adams has exceeded all expectations and deserves to be #1, but I still think Evans can be a top level starter in the CFL. He is better than at least half the starters in the league, in my opinion.

[Blitz]

B.C.FAN
TEAM CAPTAIN
Re: Lions at Ticats Oct. 13, 2023
FRI OCT 13, 2023 7:22 PM

The Lions have to tighten up on defence. They’ve gone soft and give up too many easy yards and first downs. They’ve allowed an average of over 30 points a game in the second half of the season.

JaQuan Hardy didn’t make much of an impact in the running game but he was effective as a receiver and blocker. The Lions had just 10 rushing attempts in the game. Hardy had 8 carries for 26 yards, an average of 3.3 yards per carry, but he had 3 catches for 40 yards and some key first downs. He showed enough to earn another start, IMO.

B.C. Fan your two separate posts quoted above, I believe are the two key areas of our 2023 Lions squad that must be addressed in order for us to have a legitimate chance to get to and win the Big Dance.

Our pass defense is much too soft. Its been too soft now for far too long. We are too easy to march against and long drives keep our defence on the field too long and our offence on the sidelines. Not only have we played too much passive zone but we also have had too many coverage breakdowns.

Hardy did not run the football as effectively as I had hoped for. With no hole inside he bounced it outside too often, rather than sticking his head in there. . But he did look good in both the passing game and in pass blocking. I thought he did a good job overall of pass blocking, when we kept him in to do so and its the most difficult area for a tailback to learn - picking up the blitz. A tailback's ability to pass block is often an undervalued asset from a fan perspective.

I would like to see him get a second start. But I would also really like to see us line up Mackie as our ace back. I believe he could do at least as well with our existing running attack as Mizzell or Hardy. We know he can catch the football and is a beast to bring down. He's a good pass blocker. He is not slow at 255 pounds.

Finally, no matter who is at tailback, our running scheme is not up to standard. We've had a whole season to look at it and stupid is continuing to attempt to do something that isn't working for almost an entire season now.

[Coast Mountain Lion]

Is the same crew of officials working the Ottawa-Toronto game tonight?

[South Pender]

I think Dane Evans is a better pure passer than Adams, but he lacks mobility and is extremely slow. At his pro day at Tulsa in 2017, he ran a 5.05 40--5.05! There are a lot of linemen who run a far better 40 than 5.05 sec. He also did poorly in the agility drills—the 20 yard shuttle and 3-cone drill—and lacks twitchiness. If he can get really good protection, he can make most of the throws, but should not, in my opinion, be considered a QB1. He’s a serviceable backup.

[Hambone]

I think it was clear that Hatcher was intending to go down in order to give his team the chance to win the game by a field goal. Even if he wasn't touched, it was a dead ball per the rules.

Is this a new rule that was added in recent years?

I've included both videos above for comparisons and I'm sure you agree that the 2012 game ended in the same circumstances and yet in that game, the referee allowed the clock to go to 0 officially ending the game without allowing the Stampeders one last play for a field goal attempt.

I don't know if the rule changed between 2012 and 2023. From what I can see, there is nothing in the 2023 rules about being touched. Maybe that is just a convention or unofficial holdover from past times?

In the 2023 rules, Rule 1, Section 4 Dead Ball sets out the various circumstances where a ball is ruled dead. In this case, the one that applies is:

The ball is dead when
...
The ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead.

This rule does involve the "judgement of the official", which can raise difficulties given how fast things happen. In circumstances such as last night where every second is critical and it can be easily anticipated what the Lions are doing, I think it behooves the officials to ensure that no extra seconds run after the player intentionally goes down. The right judgement would be to immediately declare the ball dead. Just my 2 cents.

And in your bolded part therein lies the big question mark. When a QB, kicker or punter give themselves up the play is to be immediately declared dead. When any other ball carrier goes down without being touched the official must take that second or two to determine he is no longer trying to advance the ball before declaring play dead. Does that mean the clock can be turned back to when he went down or is play not dead until the official has made his decision and blown the whistle?

As for other questions re: offside. Rules have changed on that in just the past 2 or 3 years. Used the be the waggling receiver pretty much had to have his leading foot on or behind the line of scrimmage the second the snap of the ball is starting. Now it's similar to when a QB is releasing a throw at the LOS. If the receiver's back foot still hasn't crossed the LOS at the time the ball is snapped he is deemed to be onside.

[Coast Mountain Lion]

I think Dane Evans is a better pure passer than Adams, but he lacks mobility and is extremely slow. At his pro day at Tulsa in 2017, he ran a 5.05 40--5.05! There are a lot of linemen who run a far better 40 than 5.05 sec. He also did poorly in the agility drills—the 20 yard shuttle and 3-cone drill—and lacks twitchiness. If he can get really good protection, he can make most of the throws, but should not, in my opinion, be considered a QB1. He’s a serviceable backup.

Evans worked well in tandem with Masoli, and vice versa. Neither is capable of carrying a team as #1 quarterback (maybe Masoli if he can stop getting injured all the time, but I doubt it) but Hamilton had success when one could pick up whenever the other tailed off.

Getting regular reps as 1A/1B kept both of them reasonably sharp. But as a long-term backup who only sees the field a few times a season, it still remains to be seen.

As for Ottawa, Pigrome relieved Crum late in tonight's game and made a few good passes in garbage time (though also gave up a sack fumble). Then at one point I noticed Arbuckle on the sidelines. Talk about a forgotten man...

[David]

The Good:
* The club's overall resiliency. Could have folded like a cheap tent after that demoralizing loss to the Bombers, only to have to travel East and play in Tim Hortons Field - not the kindest ballpark to our Leos over the years - and not really a lot on the line. Probably a lot of tight sphincters when the Ti-Cats tied it late (given what transpired last week) but the boys clutched up in the final minute.

* Evans' performance off the bench. Sure, the Ti-Cats were playing prevent defense, not press man coverage, so it was more a case of finding the open receiver, but still. He made all the throws he needed to make under a lot of pressure. Good to know we have a solid back-up option if, God forbid, Adams suffers another setback.

* Sean Whyte. 4/4 in field goals including the clutch 48-yarder with zeroes on the clock. After Betts and Hladik, he's right up there for the Top Canadian award as far as I'm concerned.

* Coach Benny. This had better not just be an interim position. What he's managed to do since he took over from Yanowsky on Special Teams is remarkable. Downfield containment is way better (the always dangerous McAllister averaged just 16 yards per return on kick-offs and 7 yards on his only punt return), returns are (finally!) improving, and the dumb holding penalties are down.

Now for...

The Bad:
* Let's see...Taquan Mizzell - 4.92 yards per carry, Shaun Shivers - 3.50 yards per carry, and now JaQuan Hardy - 3.25 yards per carry. A slippery back, a speedster, and a load all getting under 5 yards per carry....ya think this might be more about the scheme and poor run blocking?!? An upgrade at guard and right tackle is a must for our Leos this off-season.

* The lack of size and power at Defensive Tackle is going to haunt this club until it's fixed. Our pass rush off the edge is very good with Betts and Teuhema, and David Menard is always a handful. But the lack of QB pressure will make any secondary look ordinary and, sadly, ours has often looked very ordinary in the 2nd half of the season. Second down conversion has been an ongoing problem for our D and we give up too many rushing yds. We can move the ball against anyone but this is not a recipe for playoff success.


DH

[TheLionKing]

Lions defence has been passive since the beatdown by Winnipeg. Ryan Phillips may have been permanently scarred.

[Robbie]

Is this a new rule that was added in recent years?

I've included both videos above for comparisons and I'm sure you agree that the 2012 game ended in the same circumstances and yet in that game, the referee allowed the clock to go to 0 officially ending the game without allowing the Stampeders one last play for a field goal attempt.

I don't know if the rule changed between 2012 and 2023. From what I can see, there is nothing in the 2023 rules about being touched. Maybe that is just a convention or unofficial holdover from past times?

In the 2023 rules, Rule 1, Section 4 Dead Ball sets out the various circumstances where a ball is ruled dead. In this case, the one that applies is:

The ball is dead when
...
The ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead.

This rule does involve the "judgement of the official", which can raise difficulties given how fast things happen. In circumstances such as last night where every second is critical and it can be easily anticipated what the Lions are doing, I think it behooves the officials to ensure that no extra seconds run after the player intentionally goes down. The right judgement would be to immediately declare the ball dead. Just my 2 cents.

And in your bolded part therein lies the big question mark. When a QB, kicker or punter give themselves up the play is to be immediately declared dead. When any other ball carrier goes down without being touched the official must take that second or two to determine he is no longer trying to advance the ball before declaring play dead. Does that mean the clock can be turned back to when he went down or is play not dead until the official has made his decision and blown the whistle?

As for other questions re: offside. Rules have changed on that in just the past 2 or 3 years. Used the be the waggling receiver pretty much had to have his leading foot on or behind the line of scrimmage the second the snap of the ball is starting. Now it's similar to when a QB is releasing a throw at the LOS. If the receiver's back foot still hasn't crossed the LOS at the time the ball is snapped he is deemed to be onside.

Speaking of time management, here's yet another possible issue which can definitely bring about controversy and that is when there's a scoring play - be it field goals or touchdowns. When a score is made, the clock should stop - correct? But I'd say after a successful score, the timekeeper will still allow several seconds to run off before it is actually stopped. And in a close game, there's certainly a huge difference between having the scoring play end the game vs. leaving at least one second on the clock after the scoring play which results in a kickoff and in the ensuing kickoff, there is always that fair chance that the opponent can score in that kickoff. So I wonder why there isn't much arguing in such plays.

First when it comes to successful field goals, then should the clock stop as soon as it flies thorugh the uprights? Given how fast the ball moves, video review is required to see how much time was on the clock and I've never seen such a review. Suppose a team just tied or got a lead in that field goal with seconds left - should the opponent see if there was at least one second left on the clock to force a kickoff in which the opponent has a chance to score?

And when it comes to touchdowns, passing touchdowns are more clear but for very close rushing touchdowns several seconds are required for the officials to clearly observe if the ball went through the end zone and they may consult with each other as well which will take even more seconds. If it was determined that it was a touchdown, then will they try to figure out when the ball got across the end zone to see if there was any time remaining to force a kickoff?

Going back to inconsistencies again and this time with scoring plays, I'll provide two videos which you all may remember.

In November 1, 1987 in Edmonton the Lions barely won the game 33-32 to clinch first in the west via a Dewalt to Sandusky touchdown and the pre-game highlights of the 1987 WDF shows that touchdown at 1:10 of the video. When Sandusky caught the touchdown with 2 seconds remaining and the timekeeper stopped the clock with 1 second and I remember very well that there was an ensuing kickoff and the Lions prevented the Eskimos from scoring in that kickoff.


(click on the provided link to see the video)

But then in the 1994 WDF when Danny McManus threw the memorable TD pass to Darren Flutie, the ball with caught with 3 seconds left. Darren Flutie was immediately tackled and went down with 2 seconds remaining but he kept possession and control of the ball so the TD certainly counted. But nevertheless, the timekeeper allowed the clock to run to 0. But Calgary didn't argue about how there should at least 1 second remaining to force a kickoff in which the Stampeders would always have that fair chance to score in that ensuing kickoff.

[maxlion]

I don't know if the rule changed between 2012 and 2023. From what I can see, there is nothing in the 2023 rules about being touched. Maybe that is just a convention or unofficial holdover from past times?

In the 2023 rules, Rule 1, Section 4 Dead Ball sets out the various circumstances where a ball is ruled dead. In this case, the one that applies is:

The ball is dead when
...
The ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead.

This rule does involve the "judgement of the official", which can raise difficulties given how fast things happen. In circumstances such as last night where every second is critical and it can be easily anticipated what the Lions are doing, I think it behooves the officials to ensure that no extra seconds run after the player intentionally goes down. The right judgement would be to immediately declare the ball dead. Just my 2 cents.

And in your bolded part therein lies the big question mark. When a QB, kicker or punter give themselves up the play is to be immediately declared dead. When any other ball carrier goes down without being touched the official must take that second or two to determine he is no longer trying to advance the ball before declaring play dead. Does that mean the clock can be turned back to when he went down or is play not dead until the official has made his decision and blown the whistle?

As for other questions re: offside. Rules have changed on that in just the past 2 or 3 years. Used the be the waggling receiver pretty much had to have his leading foot on or behind the line of scrimmage the second the snap of the ball is starting. Now it's similar to when a QB is releasing a throw at the LOS. If the receiver's back foot still hasn't crossed the LOS at the time the ball is snapped he is deemed to be onside.

The official doesn't need to blow their whistle to "declare" a ball dead and, in circumstances like last night, they can make a judgement almost instantaneously. They need to have awareness of the clock and situation. In other circumstances it might not be so critical or obvious. But with 4 seconds left with the game on the line, they need to have awareness and make a call that accords with the particular circumstances.

On the offside, I went back and watched Hatcher crossing the line a few more times. Now I am not so sure whether he was offside. It does seem that the receivers are getting more leeway than in the past. That makes it hard for officials to know where to draw the line.

[Blitz]

The Good:
* The club's overall resiliency
* Evans' performance off the bench
* Sean Whyte.
Coach Benny.

The Bad
*Run scheme and run blocking
The lack of size and power at Defensive Tackle

David

Good to read your good/bad comments David. Here are some of my post game thoughts, using my new format.



FOR BETTER

AIR CORYELL – LEOS STYLE

Once again, our Leos vertical passing attack was ever dangerous. The combination of a very talented receiving group and Vernon Adams ability to throw bullets makes our passing attack a potent weapon. Once again Kevin Hatcher and Alexander Hollins led the way. Importantly, our Leos are throwing the football more to Jevon Cottoy. It took far too long for our Leos offence to begin utilizing Cottoy’s talents more fully but the realization of what Cottoy brings to the table is now being more fully recognized and utilized.

Lucky Whitehead had four receptions in this game and looked more excited to be out there again. But for me, perhaps the best aspect of our passing attack were the three receptions for 40 yards by JaQuan Hardy. Being able to dump or screen to the tailback for more than first down yardage for each reception added another dimension to our passing game.

BO KNOWS FOOTBALL

Bo Lokombo was back In the role of a starting linebacker and his presence was more than obvious. He was a heat seeking missile out there. He led our Leos defense in tackles with 8 and should have been credited with a forced fumble.

WINNING THE GAME WITH DANE

Dane Evans came into this game with less than a minute left on the clock and went 4/4 and needed to be purrfect to give our Leos the opportunity for Sean Whyte to kick the winning field goal. Of course, the zebras, as expected., called a penalty against us on that last minute drive to no avail. One of those four passes was to Alexander Hollins was for 42 yards. It truly was a heroic effort by Evans.

Perspective is important here, even with Evans clutch performance. Our Leos would not likely have fared nearly as well with Evans as our starter this year.
Quite simply, Vernon Adams, although he can frustrate at times, has had an excellent season overall and brings much more to the table as a starter than Evans. But having an experienced backup quarterback in Evans, who can handle clutch situations, while coming in cold as ice, is a very good thing to have.

Now if only we had a young, strong developmental quarterback to bring into the game on third and one but hey, I guess we can’t have it all (or could we?). Why not take Jevon Cottoy or Mackie and have him run a third down sneak. Who says it needs to be a quarterback.

OUTA SIGHT WITH WHYTE

Sean Whyte is really an impressive field goal kicker. He inspires confidence. Lou Passaglia will likely be held in the most esteem as a Leos field goal kicker (he was actually a much better punter than field goal kicker) and Paul McCallum was an incredible clutch field goal kicker, but Whyte is the most accurate field goal kicker of all of them.

David praised Mike Benevedes work on special teams and the praise was deserving. The Peter Principal may have been in operation in Benny’s one Head Coaching job and his last two defensive coordinator positions but his rise up the coaching ranks began after his very good work as a special teams coordinator and his work this year proves he still ‘has it’ when it comes to special teams coaching.

He’s no longer appears to be the posing, chest bumping, ranting sideline coach of yesteryear but instead, like a fine wine, seems to have matured and for now, is comfortable doing what he does best. He’s also made some significant improvement to both our punt return game and our punt coverage. Williams had a 10 yard punt return average in this contest and field position off some good punt returns in recent games has been a difference maker.

FOR WORSE

THE RUN IS NO FUN

Our Leos, between Vernon Adams and Dane Evans, threw for over 300 yards passing in the contest. We expect 300 yard passing yards per contest and often need more than 400 yards passing in order to win games. There are two reasons for that: 1) a defense that has struggled often in the second half tof this season, especially against the pass. 2) a mediocre running game.

In this contest we ran for 31 yards rushing. Yup, between Hardy (3.3 yds. per carry, Vernon Adams, and Lucky Whitehead on a fly sweep we rushed for thirty one (31 yards). Our rushing sure makes play action a legitimate threat. This is one dimensional offence and as I posted prior to the contest, one dimensional offence will not enable one to win the Big Dance or even get to play in it because its very difficult to win a playoff game on the frozen tundra in October without a running attack,

This is a pop gun run game and while there is more than enough blame to go around, from run blocking to running back play, the reality is that our run scheme is below par.

GET DOWN

Gilbert O’Sullivan hit single “Get Down” in 1973 should be an inspirational song for our Leos offence. In this game, Hatcher, got down to the turf, with only a second remaining in the contest, too close for comfort as he could have gotten down with 2 seconds left. Vernon Adams needed to ‘get down’ too after his interception.

For a quarterback there is nothing worse than throwing a pick (in his mind). However there is something worse and that is the staring quarterback getting hurt after throwing a pick – its like a double whammy with the quarterback injury the worst of the two scenarios. If it’s the forth quarter of a close playoff game, well, maybe the quarterback should consider trying to make a tackle.

My thought is that he should grab his knee or arm immediately after throwing a pick, feigning injury, and 'get down' because the defensive team always sees the interception as an opportunity to go hunting for him in an attempt to destoy him with a block that will either knock his head off or remove him from his cleats or both. Heroism is wonderful and fans appreciate a quarterback who shows toughness but wise is to get down and wait for a more opportune time to redeem himself.

PURGATORY

Football purgatory is the place where football players or coaches may need redemption but are not permanently sent to hell for their sins.

For this upcoming week offensive coordinator Jordan Maksymic and offensive line coach Kelly Bates need some cleansing fire put to their feet to get our run game going. Ryan Phillips also needs his feet to get a little toasty and then place those hot feet on some butts of some defensive backs to play a little tighter because there is often enough space to drive a Greyhound bus between themselves and the offensive receivers they are covering.

The lack of a consistent pass rush may not be helping but the reality is they are playing far too soft. Its kinda like Wally has been hired as a defensive consultant for the second half of this season and his inner fears are being projected. (I just had to get that in )

WRAP

Wow the last game of the regular season is upon is. There’s a lot of dew on the pumpkins, the tundra in Winnipeg is beginning to freeze and the flies, as big as robins, have called it a life. Its CFL football weather, the type that separates the wimps from those who with a Butkus mentality.

As playoffs approach, you have to prepare to be able to win in the cold.

[OV:54-40]

The Good:
* The club's overall resiliency. Could have folded like a cheap tent after that demoralizing loss to the Bombers, only to have to travel East and play in Tim Hortons Field - not the kindest ballpark to our Leos over the years - and not really a lot on the line. Probably a lot of tight sphincters when the Ti-Cats tied it late (given what transpired last week) but the boys clutched up in the final minute.

* Evans' performance off the bench. Sure, the Ti-Cats were playing prevent defense, not press man coverage, so it was more a case of finding the open receiver, but still. He made all the throws he needed to make under a lot of pressure. Good to know we have a solid back-up option if, God forbid, Adams suffers another setback.

* Sean Whyte. 4/4 in field goals including the clutch 48-yarder with zeroes on the clock. After Betts and Hladik, he's right up there for the Top Canadian award as far as I'm concerned.

* Coach Benny. This had better not just be an interim position. What he's managed to do since he took over from Yanowsky on Special Teams is remarkable. Downfield containment is way better (the always dangerous McAllister averaged just 16 yards per return on kick-offs and 7 yards on his only punt return), returns are (finally!) improving, and the dumb holding penalties are down.

Now for...

The Bad:
* Let's see...Taquan Mizzell - 4.92 yards per carry, Shaun Shivers - 3.50 yards per carry, and now JaQuan Hardy - 3.25 yards per carry. A slippery back, a speedster, and a load all getting under 5 yards per carry....ya think this might be more about the scheme and poor run blocking?!? An upgrade at guard and right tackle is a must for our Leos this off-season.

* The lack of size and power at Defensive Tackle is going to haunt this club until it's fixed. Our pass rush off the edge is very good with Betts and Teuhema, and David Menard is always a handful. But the lack of QB pressure will make any secondary look ordinary and, sadly, ours has often looked very ordinary in the 2nd half of the season. Second down conversion has been an ongoing problem for our D and we give up too many rushing yds. We can move the ball against anyone but this is not a recipe for playoff success.


DH

Josh Banks - listed at 290 - is not small for a CFL DT; he's just not very good - more like average to mediocre; Woody Barron - listed at 270 - is maybe average to a bit small for a CFL DT - he was average at best for the Als. It's not size, but these guys are not run-stuffing DTs, so why does the DC deploy them over & over again? Draft pick Beimy does not have much size for a pro DT either. A number of CFL teams used a lot of rotation at all D-line spots now - the Argos maybe the most notable example, but that includes at both DE & DT, and all of their guys there have played well most of the time. Not sure why Phillips does not grasp his DT rotation is not good enough and why he has not tried somebody else at DT ? - maybe he thinks most CFL teams will not exploit with a strong ground game ?