Braley wants to buy B.C. Place ......

[120dB]

I'm trying to understand what David Braley is proposing. Is he proposing to buy the Stadium outright or just act as Manager (create a new Management company) through which the Stadium can attract new business and relieve the Government of the operating costs.

[Lion Guy]

The least logistically challenged location is right where it sits now. Seabus/Skytrain from the North Shore. Skytrain lines to Surrey, New Westminster and Coquitlam all funnel into downtown Vancouver.

..and all go to Surrey......

The downtown core may not be the easiest to get into in a car,

Thank you...you're doing great

Cities that built arenas or stadiums out in the suburbs usually regret it

Surrey is no longer a suburb...it rivals Vancouver in size and population.

In the meantime the downtown core which could do with an economic shot in the arm continues to decay.

Last time I checked, our downtown core was doing just fine. It has GM Place....it doesn't need 2.

That all lines go to Surrey is comforting to all the folks from the North Shore, West End, Yaletown, Kitsilano etc as they walk past or Skytrain past the old stadium site enroute to Surrey. Ditto for any Richmond people eagerly awaiting the opening of the Canada Line so they can Skytrain it into the downtown core for football games. Oh they could still do that to a Surrey stadium because they'd have to take the train into downtown Vancouver to make the transfer to go out to Surrey. That's of course based on the assumption that a potential BC Place replacement in Surrey is even near a Skytrain station.

Some people think getting to downtown in a vehicle is a pain. Other than dealing with congestion at peak times I have no problems getting around downtown myself and I drive a full-sized 4x4. Personally I'd much rather be driving within the city limits of the City of Vancouver than anywhere south of the Fraser that isn't on Hwy 1 or 99. I get more stressed driving around Richmond or Surrey than I do in Vancouver or Burnaby. My worst recent driving experience in the lower mainland was going from the Tsawassen ferry terminal out to Abbotsford for Lions training camp. Took 2 freakin' hours just to get to Hwy 1 through Surrey and Langley. Normally I'd go through Horseshoe Bay but I had meetings near Duke Point that day. Note to self: never ever take Duke Point ferry again unless you're going to Seattle.

Yes your downtown core is doing fine and you can thank BC Place for that. It became an anchor tenant on False Creek and begat the need for an adjacent Skytrain station. No doubt the presence of BC Place and that same Skytrain station played a big role in Arthur Griffith's decision for the GM Place site. And in turn the combination of those two facilities has played a big role in the investment by the hotel industry in the new properties that have sprung up around BC Place. If it wasn't for BC Place and it's 200+ days of use combined with GM Place's contributions there's probably still only the Sandman and Georgian Court there. Those stadiums and the hospitality industry surrounding them feed off each other. Removal of BC Place from the mix would be a big blow to the capital invested in that area.

Good post. Well thought out. I have no REAL problem with where the stadium sits. I think it could be moved with no major repercussions. Others like you disagree. I have no problem with that.

[David]

I'm trying to understand what David Braley is proposing. Is he proposing to buy the Stadium outright or just act as Manager (create a new Management company) through which the Stadium can attract new business and relieve the Government of the operating costs.

Actually both. He's tried in the past to purchase the stadium outright from the government for which he's been put off (or at the very least, the decision to sell has been put on the back burner).

In the meantime, he's offered to set up a management company to run the stadium, this in an effort to wipe out the yearly deficit under PAVCO. Through various inefficiencies, running BC Place is widely believed to be costing BC taxpayers $4 million annually despite the fact that it's booked for more dates than most North American stadiums.

DH 8)

[KnowItAll]

Took 2 freakin' hours just to get to Hwy 1 through Surrey and Langley.

thats an anomoly. I dont even take 1 hr to get to HWY 1 from tsawassen. Except maybe in rush hour. Maybe you took the long route.

[Hambone]

Took 2 freakin' hours just to get to Hwy 1 through Surrey and Langley.

thats an anomoly. I dont even take 1 hr to get to HWY 1 from tsawassen. Except maybe in rush hour. Maybe you took the long route.

If Hwy 10 is the long route from the ferry to the Freeway then I took the long way. It was the Tuesday afternoon after the May long weekend. Just a long slow bumper to bumper drive right from the deck of the ferry. I got off the boat around 2:30. I've never lived in the lower mainland only visited there many times over the years. While I know Vancouver proper like the back of my hand that Surrey/Whalley/Langley area just rattles me. Don't know it well enough and when I do venture there it's frustrating enough that I don't want to go back.

[KnowItAll]

Took 2 freakin' hours just to get to Hwy 1 through Surrey and Langley.

thats an anomoly. I dont even take 1 hr to get to HWY 1 from tsawassen. Except maybe in rush hour. Maybe you took the long route.

If Hwy 10 is the long route from the ferry to the Freeway then I took the long way. It was the Tuesday afternoon after the May long weekend. Just a long slow bumper to bumper drive right from the deck of the ferry. I got off the boat around 2:30. I've never lived in the lower mainland only visited there many times over the years. While I know Vancouver proper like the back of my hand that Surrey/Whalley/Langley area just rattles me. Don't know it well enough and when I do venture there it's frustrating enough that I don't want to go back.

oh yeah, both the long route and the slow route. Specially at that time. Then again, coming from horseshoe bay at that time would be even worse. I used to live in walnut grove ( North Langley) and work at the BC TEL Boot (kingsway and boundary in Burnaby. Straight down HWY 1 from langley to burnaby. 20-25 minutes at normal t ime, up to 2 hrs afternoon rush hr. I guarantee you that you made better time that day taking the south route. However, if it were me, I would have stayed on 99 past hwy 10 and taken 16th ave across, although its a bit tricky to get to 16th as it has no exits to 99.

[Lionheart]

In the meantime, he's offered to set up a management company to run the stadium, this in an effort to wipe out the yearly deficit under PAVCO. Through various inefficiencies,

Now what do you think they would be? One too many security guards? Turn the hot water off? In fact I think it already is off in the cans. The place already gets as much business as there is that I'm aware of.

He just wants to buy it and sell out huge down the road.

[Rammer]

In the meantime, he's offered to set up a management company to run the stadium, this in an effort to wipe out the yearly deficit under PAVCO. Through various inefficiencies,

Now what do you think they would be? One too many security guards? Turn the hot water off? In fact I think it already is off in the cans. The place already gets as much business as there is that I'm aware of.

He just wants to buy it and sell out huge down the road.

Having control of the Dome will help out in gaining greater revenues for the Lions, or another umbrella company for Braley. Which in turn will help if/when he decides to sell. However given the land value that has been tossed about the last few years, he likely saw much more there and wanted to steal that our from under the government, if they would sell at that price.

We heard around $300M the past couple of years, and just recently I heard $500M, so that in itself would have covered losses for many a moon had he pulled it off.

[Lionheart]

Having control of the Dome will help out in gaining greater revenues for the Lions, or another umbrella company for Braley.

That much is clear, but quite different than trying to tell the government he can erase 2M - 4M in supposed inefficiencies.

[SammyGreene]

In found this bit interesting in Jeff Lee's feature in last Saturday's Vancouver Sun:

With only one exception -- a Grey Cup-Rolling Stones-Pink Floyd triple bonus in 1994 -- BC Place has never broken even in more than 15 years. In its earliest years, after Expo 86, it showed a profit because it also collected revenue from attached parking lots. But the government took that away in a reorganization, and sold off the parking lots.

So the province sells off the adjacent parking lots to Impark and puts B.C. Place in position to lose money? I can't see there being any more events in the 80s than there is now and the Lions actually played one less home game then.
Wonder what the price tag was and if it was ever factored into the annual losses?

I actually found the voice to keep B.C. Place a lot louder than I anticipated. The mayor, Tourism Vancouver, the NDP all voiced their support and the two public opinion polls I saw were about 70 percent in favour of keeping it.

Of course having no confirmed alternate plan and a rich real estate developer saying he would love to build condos there only helped the cause.

[Hambone]

I can't see there being any more events in the 80s than there is now and the Lions actually played one less home game then.

Only partly true. They still had 10 home dates prior to 1986. Up until they switched from a 16 game schedule to 18 games they had played 4 exhibition games instead of the current 2. The change just meant 1 exhibition game was turned into a regular season game. Obviously there was a bit of a revenue gain doing that although it made little difference when it came to season ticketholders as it was still a 10 game package they bought.

[Hambone]

Through various inefficiencies, running BC Place is widely believed to be costing BC taxpayers $4 million annually despite the fact that it's booked for more dates than most North American stadiums.
DH 8)

The dollar figure being bandied about for the taxpayer's contribution to BC Place can be taken with a grain of salt. I'm assuming that is a figure that amounts to the government's contribution to balance the BC Place books. I would think the PST alone collected from the economic spinoffs generated from BC Place will more than offset the taxpayer's direct contribution. Then there's GST collected on top of that. Chipping in $4 million annually could be a bargain for the taxpayer if the different levels of government are recouping millions more in tax revenues from the economic activity generated for each Dome event or Trade Show.

[Sharpo]

I'm trying to understand what David Braley is proposing. Is he proposing to buy the Stadium outright or just act as Manager (create a new Management company) through which the Stadium can attract new business and relieve the Government of the operating costs.

Actually both. He's tried in the past to purchase the stadium outright from the government for which he's been put off (or at the very least, the decision to sell has been put on the back burner).

In the meantime, he's offered to set up a management company to run the stadium, this in an effort to wipe out the yearly deficit under PAVCO. Through various inefficiencies, running BC Place is widely believed to be costing BC taxpayers $4 million annually despite the fact that it's booked for more dates than most North American stadiums.

DH 8)

He'll eat the losses on the taxes he will pay (and he will absolutely pay)

[120dB]

Vancouver can't just have condos everywhere and no entertainment venues. Our city has to have an identity, a personality, and be vibrant like other cities. We need a proper mix of nightclubs, theatres, and sports venues to give our city the right amount of balance between entertainment venues and places for living.

Yes people need places to live, but they can't just be held up in their living quarters all the time! People wanna go out and enjoy theatre, go out for dinner, watch sporting events, etc.

Surely we're not going to devote every last square foot of downtown land to a condo. If these developers are so horny for new condos, there's land on the other side of False Creek where they can build their glass towers and Shangri-Las.

BC Place was there first. The condos came later.

The Canucks and Whitecaps moved downtown in order to further their business objectives, and the Lions surely share the same need to be operating in a downtown environment where they can be competitive.

I'm trying to understand what is gained by tearing down BC Place and building a 35,000 seat stadium on that space of land where the land savings may only be a few acres.

First consider the roof on the dome covers 10 acres. The whole building with the adjacent surrounding outside walkways covers about 14 acres and with adjacent parking lots we're looking probably at 17 - 20 acres.

A 35,000 seat stadium will still require parking lots. There might be a savings of a few acres assuming a 35,000 seat stadium may not have end zone seats and an oval concrete structure to support a roof.

But look at how much it will cost to demolish BC Place and all the traffic inconveniences caused by trucking out 600,000 cubic meters of smashed concrete. By the time you factor in those demolition costs (which will have to be borne by Concord) one wonders if there is really much financial benefit just to gain a few acres.

The playing field for such a 35,000 seat stadium will NOT be covered (the seating area mabey but not the field) so such a Stadium CANNOT be used for Conventions. You can't set up a Convention exhibit under the threat of rain.

Consequently there's a loss of the 220,000 sq. feet of convention space that BC Place Stadium brings to the table. While completion of the new Convention Center will triple the amount of Convention space, there's still the possibility that at times during the convention season we will need more space if a major event drawing 40,000 people moves in, a common occurence in Seattle whom Vancouver has lost much business to.

Then there's the question of where the BC Lions play in between the closure of the dome and the opening of a new downtown stadium, a time period of mabey 4 years. I don't hear much discussion of this, like it's a non-issue!

The Lions could play for 4 years at the new Whitecaps stadium but they would have to be financially viable on the basis of an expectation of no more than 15,000 fans per game, and I'm not sure if David Braley is in a position to make that severe adjustment to his financial position.

Not to mention scheduling hassels with trying to fit in CFL games within a 30 game Soccer schedule that runs through October, and that's not considering scheduling around outdoor concerts and daytime VSO performances that the new Waterfront Stadium is expected to play host to. Most other CFL Stadiums (aside from Toronto and the Blue Jays) do not experience that busy a schedule.

If this rip-down-the-dome-and-boot-out-the-Lions matter is pushed any further, or even if the threat and continued rumours and talk in the media about it continues at this ferocious pace, I see it likely that David Braley will throw in the towel, give up, and walk away from this situation. He has busted his butt trying to save football in this market, and I strongly sense he will show apathy if the Government makes a move.

And no one will be prepared to buy the BC Lions from David Braley and inherit future financial losses during a period where the Lions will not have a financially viable place to play.

[Hambone]

Good post. Well thought out. I have no REAL problem with where the stadium sits. I think it could be moved with no major repercussions. Others like you disagree. I have no problem with that.

One aspect that shouldn't be dismissed is how people react to traveling within an urban area such as Greater Vancouver/Lower Mainland. It seems the closer folks live to an urban core the more inconvenient they find it to travel from their residence. Folks living in the 'burbs won't think twice about hopping into their car or onto transit to head off to another part of the metropolitan area for entertainment or shopping. It's just something they are accustomed to doing and part of the price to pay for living where they do. I don't think the same rings true for people in the inner core or in the case of Vancouver the population dense West End and areas surrounding False Creek. These people tend to have everything they need within walking distance or a short cab ride. Often that convenience is part of why they live where they do. As such they don't see a need to go any further for anything.

It would be interesting to know exactly where the crowds come from for Lion games for the varying groups; season ticket holders, single game purchasers and day of the game walkups. The Lions have always enjoyed a larger day of the game walkup crowd than any other CFL team. I have a hunch a vast majority of those day of the game walkups are people who live in that West End/False Creek area. Vancouver is notoriously last minute for deciding to go to games or events. These folks can be sitting in their condos or at their favourite Starbucks 2 hours before the game and decide maybe they should go. But if it took more effort to get to the stadium than a 10-15 minute walk they won't bother.

So while the Lions have good fortune that folks from adjoining cities will find their way into downtown Vancouver I don't see people living in within the City of Vancouver reciprocating in the same manner. That's not a knock on the Lions or fickleness of fans but rather a reflection of human nature in an urban metropolis.