Premier idiot

[KnowItAll]

I have never hated a politician like I hate Campbell.

His latest, upon being queried about lack of BC govt pledge of financial help, he says "its a city park". What a piece of *poop* this guy is.

Of course, what he really means is, "all our money is tied up in the Olympics" :x :x :x

[MacNews]

KnowItAll, it's not the 'governments' money, it's your money. It's just you giving money to the Parks Board indirectly. As if you don't pay enough taxes already. Besides, he gave $1 million already, with a possible $1 million more to come.

I don't get what the big deal is, sure it isn't pretty to see all the downed trees, but its real nature. In the wild, trees fall down and no one picks them up. But because it's a park, we have to spend millions picking them all up.

[TheLionKing]

I concur

[KnowItAll]

KnowItAll, it's not the 'governments' money, it's your money. It's just you giving money to the Parks Board indirectly. As if you don't pay enough taxes already. Besides, he gave $1 million already, with a possible $1 million more to come.

I don't get what the big deal is, sure it isn't pretty to see all the downed trees, but its real nature. In the wild, trees fall down and no one picks them up. But because it's a park, we have to spend millions picking them all up.

yes we do, because it is not just a matter of picking them up from the middle of the woods. They are on the roads, on the trails, and on the seawall. Some defend the Olympics by bringing up tourism. Well, Stanly park brings in more Tourism than the Olympics ever will, and not just for one yr. Not to mention its important to the locals. Yes, the money must be spent. Its not like Campbell is going to spend it on the more important health, welfare and education. Also, its not just a matter of picking up fallent trees. Seawall has to be repared and cliffs and trees need to be dealt with for safety. It must be done. Once the govt gets the money from us, its not ours anymore. We dont get to decided how it is spent.

[Lionut]

He's right -- it is a city park. It's not a provincial park, and it's not a national park, and I have never heard the City of Vancouver ever looking to give responsibility for the park away to any senior level of government. Therefore, this is their problem.

As I referenced in another thread, one of the biggest problems with government in Canada is this annoying habit of the lower levels of government panhandling senior levels of government to pay for responsibilities within their jurisdiction. The provincial governments do it to the feds, and the cities in turn hit up the provinces. The end result is a lack of focus, and a lack of proper planning. I know for its part, the new federal government is strongly resisting the habit the old Liberal government had of meddling in provincial and municipal affairs, splashing money around in areas outside their jurisdiction every time it looked like there might be political brownie points to be gained.

Again, there is only one taxpayer. Everyone here pays provincial and federal taxes, so when a senior level of government pays for a project outside their jurisdiction, that's your money also. It sounds logical enough, but if you get mesmerized by the who-pays-for-what shell game politicians like to play when trying to evade their given responsibilities, it's easy to lose track. My theory is that local property taxes are a very real, tangible figure, whereas we have all become somewhat numb to the deductions on our paycheques for federal and provincial taxes.

Finally, there seems to be this notion that if we gather up enough money and click our heels together three times, all the trees will be back again. That's obviously not going to happen. This reminds me a bit of the fallout from Hurricane Katrina, when the political blame game got into full swing. It's irrational to get mad at the weather, of course, so politicians often become a scapegoat for the anger and despair caused by a natural disaster.

[Lion Guy]

As I referenced in another thread, one of the biggest problems with government in Canada is this annoying habit of the lower levels of government panhandling senior levels of government to pay for responsibilities within their jurisdiction. The provincial governments do it to the feds, and the cities in turn hit up the provinces. The end result is a lack of focus, and a lack of proper planning.

HOWEVER...some of those responsibilities have beed downloaded onto lower levels of government, Provincial to Municipal for example, without the lower level having the ability to fund them properly. It may be fine for City of Vancouver, Kamloops, Victoria etc with fairly broad tax bases, but not for Municipalities like Port Alberni or Kitimat. The panhandling you speak of more ofetn than not is a case of, "well you dumped this on us, could you at least provide somefunding so we can provide the service".

I hear what you say, but I'm not buying all of it.

[Lionut]

You have to get specific, however, about what exactly has been downloaded. I've also heard local politicians whine about downloading, but when asked for details on exactly what they are referring to, they can't tell you much, other than describe to you in detail just how increasingly expensive it is to provide the services that, in fact, have always fallen with their jurisdiction.

Case in point -- for several years now, there has been federal infrastructure money trickling down from the feds, to the provinces, and ultimately to the municipalities. Instead of using it for maintaining urban infrastructure and investing in disaster preparedness, however, many municipalities used the money to expand roads and sewer systems to service new developments. Why? To expand the tax base, of course. Then when real infrastructure needs come up, they cry poverty, and go looking for additional money from the senior levels of government.

I'll grant you that it is tough for local governments in so far as they don't get revenue windfalls from natural resource royalties the way the senior levels of government do. Local governments largely have to raise their money the old fashioned way, through property taxes, and of course the political heat that comes from property tax increases is heavy. As a nasty old conservative, however, I would argue that this keeps the real cost of government more visible to the taxpayer, acting as a natural brake on the impulse of governments and politicians to continue expanding their empires.

[KnowItAll]

First, apparently, it is not a city park, it seems to be a federal park that is only leased to the city. Second the benifit of stanley park is not just to Vancouver, but to the whole province, and even some to the rest of Canada as well. It is in the interest of all 3 levels to chip in, as Campball final has, sort of, after his initial statement. No doubt due to heavy political pressure. Third, city budget makes it practically impossible to foot the whole bill. Much easier for the province and the Feds to kick in one third each of the tax payers contribution.

and it does make a difference as to which taxpayers pay the load. If the city pays the whole thing, then it is only vancouver taxpayers paying, and thats not right. It is right, it is required, that the municipal govt seek to get the rest of the province and the rest of Canada to pay their share. It is a NATIONAL treasure, not just a Vancouver treasure.

[MacNews]

First, apparently, it is not a city park, it seems to be a federal park that is only leased to the city. Second the benifit of stanley park is not just to Vancouver, but to the whole province, and even some to the rest of Canada as well...Much easier for the province and the Feds to kick in one third each of the tax payers contribution.

...It is right, it is required, that the municipal govt seek to get the rest of the province and the rest of Canada to pay their share...

Stanley Park is a 404.9 hectare (1,000 acre) urban park bordering downtown Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.[1] It is the largest city-owned park in Canada and the third largest in North America.[2]

When in doubt, I defer to Wikipedia.

You're right KIA, everyone who wants to can visit Stanley Park, and thus benefit from it. But the park is the city's responsibility. The city can charge parking fees and collect the revenue. Since it's their park, it's also their problem. The whole "Who will pay?" question is nothing but an attempt by Global to shore up their ratings, and its obvious.

If I benefit by using your sidewalk, am I obliged to pitch in money to help you salt it? No, because it's not my sidewalk.

I don't see the point of the provincial or federal government pitching in money KIA. It's all taxes. So in the end it doesn't matter, because it's your money, whichever level decides to pitch in.

If you care about it, why don't you donate money yourself. I don't see how this is anything more than a Parks Board issue.

[CB123]

I have never hated a politician like I hate Campbell.

Of course, what he really means is, "all our money is tied up in the Olympics"

Um... yeah, I think we got that already in the olympic thread...

[KnowItAll]

First, apparently, it is not a city park, it seems to be a federal park that is only leased to the city. Second the benifit of stanley park is not just to Vancouver, but to the whole province, and even some to the rest of Canada as well...Much easier for the province and the Feds to kick in one third each of the tax payers contribution.

...It is right, it is required, that the municipal govt seek to get the rest of the province and the rest of Canada to pay their share...

Stanley Park is a 404.9 hectare (1,000 acre) urban park bordering downtown Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.[1] It is the largest city-owned park in Canada and the third largest in North America.[2]

When in doubt, I defer to Wikipedia.

You needed to read further down the page.

In 1908, 20 years after the first petition for the lease, the federal government renewed the lease of Stanley Park to Vancouver for 99 years, renewable in 2007.

I don't see the point of the provincial or federal government pitching in money KIA. It's all taxes. So in the end it doesn't matter, because it's your money, whichever level decides to pitch in.

you dont understand that if only the city of Vancouver pays, then only vancouver tax payers pay?? As a Delta resident, I gain if only Vancover pays. If I am not a resident of BC, then I gain if the Feds do not pay.

In general, if I am a Vancouver resident and things such as this only come out of my pocket through the city, and such things happen a lot, then I am more likely to end up paying increased taxed than if I pay through the province with every BC taxpayer paying a smaller portion, and a whole lot less likely to face increased taxes if the Feds pay with every Canadian then paying an extremely small portion.

You could liken it to CB123 gym. If just his class was to try to pay for it, it would be a lot more per person than his grade. His grade would be a lot more per person than his school. Now, if his class actually had the funds to cover it, funds that were for such things as school trips, etc, then it would deplete their funds so that they could do nothing else, yet if the whole school dipped in out of everybodys funds, then everybody has some left over.

[LFITQ]

So how does the resident of Prince George/Dawson Creek/Stewart/Prince Rupert/Queen Charlotte Islands gain by having their tax dollars go to Stanley Park?

Mountain Pine beetle came in here and took out MANY more trees in our parks that all came down and had to be cleaned up with city tax payer money, when the root cause can be traced back to the Provincial Government's inability to listen to concerns raised about Tweedsmuir park ... so city tax payers have footed the bill for cleanup of Mountain Pine Beetle that was a direct cause of Provincial Government (and a few environmentalists .. correction anti-harming trees groups), but now the Provincial government should step in on a CITY owned park in Vancouver?

[Lionheart]

I don't get what the big deal is, sure it isn't pretty to see all the downed trees, but its real nature. In the wild, trees fall down and no one picks them up. But because it's a park, we have to spend millions picking them all up.

I'll teach you. It becomes a FIRE HAZARD. Downed trees and dead brush become FUEL. It must be cleaned up.

[LFITQ]

Downed trees and dead brush also become habitat and help to establish and augment the ecosystem. There is a reason why the Forest Practices code attempts to limit the damage done by logging to the underbrush. Also, some of the underbrush can help to contain moisture which can help to prevent fires or at least limit their growth in wetter climates...

[KnowItAll]

So how does the resident of Prince George/Dawson Creek/Stewart/Prince Rupert/Queen Charlotte Islands gain by having their tax dollars go to Stanley Park?

Mountain Pine beetle came in here and took out MANY more trees in our parks that all came down and had to be cleaned up with city tax payer money, when the root cause can be traced back to the Provincial Government's inability to listen to concerns raised about Tweedsmuir park ... so city tax payers have footed the bill for cleanup of Mountain Pine Beetle that was a direct cause of Provincial Government (and a few environmentalists .. correction anti-harming trees groups), but now the Provincial government should step in on a CITY owned park in Vancouver?

Just because you got screwed by the province doesnt make it right for them to do the same everywhere else, and once again, it is not City owned, just leased. In fact, assuming they will be shortly renegotiating a next lease, maybe the city of Vancouver shouldnt put one cent into it until they get the new lease. The feds are liable to let the city and private citizens clean it all up, then lease or sell it to someone else.