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Jim Mullin wrote:We are halfway through the CIS season, two-thirds of the way through the CJFL season and there's even a High School season going on and there is not a single thread on any amateur football topic.

Why is there such a gulf between amateur football and professional football in BC? It's certianly not the case in other communities.

Hey Jim, thanks for bringing up this topic again. Ever since I joined the board, I've tried to promote more CIS discussion by creating various CIS and Thunderbirds threads, with minimal success.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15787
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13384

With slightly more interest with the city hosting the Vanier Cup for the first time:
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=19158

And I even created a BC High School thread one time, with no success.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=13902

TheLionKing wrote:In my years at UBC I never attended a Thunderbird game because they were so damn bad. I still follow my alma mater but don't attend the games.

sj-roc wrote:I did my PhD at UBC and in my years there, I never once went to a T-birds game, nor do I know of anyone else who ever did so, with the possible exception of one or two Shrum Bowls (and as you imply, the people who go to Shrum Bowls generally don't go to watch a football game).

I never knew that you two attended UBC. So as former students and now alumni, do you have a strong affinity towards your alma mater, and were you ecstatic when UBC won their last Vanier Cup in 1997, the same way you would feel whenever the Lions win the Grey Cup?
Did you buy much UBC paraphernalia from the bookstore?

And sj-roc, where did you attend your undergrad? How does that university compare to UBC with regards to interest or apathy for their sports teams?

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There is little interest in CIS basketball either and it seemed like the student body or alumni couldn't care less when the Thunderbirds made it to the 2009 Basketball finals, unlike students of an American college if their basketball team made it to the NCAA Final Four.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=16687

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jcalhoun wrote:On top of that, there is a general resentment among the student body towards the athletics department, that is often articulated openly in upper level academic classes.

There is also a lot of Balkanization within the university itself. Not only between disciplines (Arts/Sciences, say) but along ethnic lines. I've seen reference to this sort of thing at UBC, and have seen it myself at SFU. There are communal areas on campus (cafeterias, study spaces, etc) where one rarely ever sees any minority groups, and others where you're surprised to ever hear English spoken.

It's always somewhat sensitive when talking about race and ethnicity, so speaking through generalizations and without beating around the bush....

Greater Vancouver has a very large Chinese-Canadian population along with some other Asian-Canadians communities, and in some places one can say they are the majority, and that may apply to both UBC and SFU as well (University of a Billion Chinese). And Chinese culture is one that emphasizes academics, and thus most of the Chinese-Canadian students are interested in studying and academics more than anything else and thus, they are apathetic in watching football. If they are interested in sports, it would be in sports in which the typical Chinese-Canadian might be more interested in playing (badminton, volleyball, etc.) So essentially, it's a demographics issue.

A few decades ago, the Richmond Colts were well known for its football team but the football program at Richmond Secondary ended in 2000 due to a shortage of players. An plausible reason is because most students are Asian-Canadian now who are not interested in playing high school football while those like Bryan Chiu are certainly the small exception.

SFU is a commuter campus, and despite improvements with the UniverCity development, and a few stores on top of the hill, the place is still a ghost town on weekends. Most students that I've met at SFU work on weekends, and aren't heading up to campus unless they have to. What's more, everyone is going there just to get their degree, and then to get on with their lives; there is very little in terms of campus life/activities. What there is appeals to a fringe group of students, and this fringe aren't boosters for any of the teams

It hasn't changed since I was up there in the early 1990's when I ran the student radio station and later moved to the Sports Info position with athletics.

On top of that, there is a general resentment among the student body towards the athletics department, that is often articulated openly in upper level academic classes. Most students are at best indifferent to SFU's athletics teams, but many are openly hostile. On numerous occasions I've had professors and fellow students remark that we didn't have a copy of some book in the library, but that we had a nice new athletic building/track/etc.

It seems to be a political statement at SFU by the entrenched campus community to position one's self against some vague represenation of the "establishment". I remember in the 1990's the football team put out their annual poster with the captains in uniform on a tank. The SFU Womyn's (yes the spelling is correct, uberpolitically so) Society took major offense to this, taking the position that this advocated war and in turn supported crimes against women in wartime. After much puffery channeled through the battery operated blowhorn known as The Peak, the poster was recalled and the only article of promotion for the team went into the recycling bin.

If the profs and students understood the bottom line cost of A&R, they wouldn't be using it as a scapegoat.

That being said, the current administration managed to slip through a vote on a 3,500-seat stadium at Terry Fox Field... to be paid by the students. Now, some of those in opposition to athletics may have a leg to stand on.

There is also a lot of Balkanization within the university itself. Not only between disciplines (Arts/Sciences, say) but along ethnic lines. I've seen reference to this sort of thing at UBC, and have seen it myself at SFU. There are communal areas on campus (cafeterias, study spaces, etc) where one rarely ever sees any minority groups, and others where you're surprised to ever hear English spoken. There is also a shifting demographic in universities that has seen an increase in female students, who are less likely to attend sporting events than their male counterparts. There isn't a sense of collective experience in any aspect of the university, and one is unlikely to develop one that coalesces around the football team.

Beyond athletics, this is not only a major concern not only for the university community but the greater community at large. There is no other place in Canada where this Balkanization transposes itself directly to a city than it does in Vancouver. There can be a case made that the root of the separation of ethnic communities on campus translates directly to the demographic archipelago that is Greater Vancouver. If that is the case, then the university is not serving the needs of graduating individuals who can contribute to a cohesive, connected society. Athletics plays a role within a campus community of bonding.

Also, one can blame Arthur Erickson for that sprawling, windswept, rain soaked monolith in the clouds known as the campus.... Inspiring morose insular behaviour since 1965.

Of the universities you cite, "Queen's, Laval, Montreal, McMaster, Saskatchewan [and] Western" I suspect you'll find a less ethnically diverse student body than one would at say, UBC, SFU & the UofT, and only Montreal is in a major city.

Even the Varsity Blues can draw 4-5,000 for one game a year.

It's also not helped by the fact that UBC & SFU are fundamentally different schools: SFU is a general arts diploma mill (churning out teachers & manic depressives), while UBC is a serious academic research facility with medical and engineering schools.

Enroll as a moody teen, leave as a manic grad with 25 years of student loans. Love it.

What this means is that the sort of student that inclines towards a particular field has their decision to attend a particular school more or less dictated to them out here. There isn't such a disparity between Queen's, Western and Guelph, which means that one chooses one's affiliation more actively, and this choice undoubtedly manifests itself in what could be called 'school pride'. I chose SFU solely on the grounds that I could live at home. This is hardly the foundation on which to build a passion for one's school teams.

In the case of UBC, many choose the school as a destination. Would the case of the athletic department planning an event (and not just having a football game) create a social destination for the student body? Uh, yeah. However, the commuter campus effect may be the biggest challenge for the majority of schools in the west. That and playing in stadiums (Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg) where inventory will always outstrip demand.

More factors: while tuition in BC is cheaper than Alberta, Ontario and Saskatchewan, the cost of living in Vancouver is far more expensive. This means less time for entertainment, especially entertainment that occurs on the weekends during the day.

Going to a campus event is about as cheap as it gets for entertainment in Vancouver.

I take your point on valuing the product on its own terms and not purely as a scouting expedition for future CFL players, but if you're going to build your brand amongst football fans that is one narrative you need to stress. TSN's Duane Forde gets a lot of credit on CFL boards around the league for his knowledge about the CIS and potential draft picks. We all like hearing about the new kid coming up, and it's a mainstay of every pro-league. Think of all the endless blather about draft picks in hockey, the NFL, the NBA, MLB etc. Stressing this as one of the selling points of your product doesn't diminish it, and may just lead to an uptick in interest. It may also help CIS players. If we know there is an undrafted stud linebacker at UBC (for example) we can hit the call-in shows and write here and openly ask why Wally hasn't at least taken a look at the guy.

I agree that this aspect is an important feature to marketing the game, but it should not be the driver. There are many elements which should be sold on their own merits.

I still think there is an answer in terms of popularizing university athletics in the west to the same degree they are in Ontario or Quebec. It takes time, vision and patience.

Jim Mullin wrote:

jcalhoun wrote:On top of that, there is a general resentment among the student body towards the athletics department, that is often articulated openly in upper level academic classes. Most students are at best indifferent to SFU's athletics teams, but many are openly hostile. On numerous occasions I've had professors and fellow students remark that we didn't have a copy of some book in the library, but that we had a nice new athletic building/track/etc.

It seems to be a political statement at SFU by the entrenched campus community to position one's self against some vague represenation of the "establishment". I remember in the 1990's the football team put out their annual poster with the captains in uniform on a tank. The SFU Womyn's (yes the spelling is correct, uberpolitically so) Society took major offense to this, taking the position that this advocated war and in turn supported crimes against women in wartime. After much puffery channeled through the battery operated blowhorn known as The Peak, the poster was recalled and the only article of promotion for the team went into the recycling bin.

*rolls eyes* There's no outrage like manufactured outrage. This is exactly the sort of anti-establishment behaviour I was talking about in an earlier post. This doesn't even strike me as SFU-specific behaviour; I'm confident it goes on to some extent at pretty much every university in the country.

On the Asian question:

Have any of the athletics departments gone directly to the ethnic student clubs to court them as customers? It's a rhetorical question, since I know the answer.

Funny thing is, when I called basketball at Stanford about seven years ago, I saw plenty of ethnic and foriegn students in the stands. Now why is it that way there, but not here in Vancouver?

Robbie wrote: I never knew that you two attended UBC. So as former students and now alumni, do you have a strong affinity towards your alma mater, and were you ecstatic when UBC won their last Vanier Cup in 1997, the same way you would feel whenever the Lions win the Grey Cup?
Did you buy much UBC paraphernalia from the bookstore?

I am loyal to my alma mater. I have a UBC Alumni Mastercard; part of my purchases goes back to my alma mater. I just returned from shopping at Superstore where a lady was trying to get me to subscribe to a PC Mastercard. Her selling point was that I could have some of my purchase for free if I spend so much. I'm not interested nor am I interested in air miles from VISA. I still follow the progress of UBC teams. Yes I have bought paraphernalia from the bokstore.

Jim Mullin wrote:On the Asian question:

Have any of the athletics departments gone directly to the ethnic student clubs to court them as customers? It's a rhetorical question, since I know the answer.

Funny thing is, when I called basketball at Stanford about seven years ago, I saw plenty of ethnic and foriegn students in the stands. Now why is it that way there, but not here in Vancouver?

When I played high school football - early 60s - Britannia was the power house with guards the same size as their running backs - not that big as they were Japanese and number 1. We had the biggest offense in the league at NVHS but came third two years as Britannia and Killarney were very strong.

In Hong Kong where I am the big games for Chinese are soccer and basketball and the Eng. Premier League and the European leagues do pre-season games across Asia to keep the fan base up. China is the same and not just for betting as those who do the betting don't buy jerseys and team kit like the fans do.

The NFL like MLB and the NBA and are now up and running in China with an office and marketing. It is about sales and marketing. NBA stars were in a shopping mall by my office last year as well as in China. In China the NFL is holding football camps for kids. All to generate fan interest.

University teams need to market on campus to the campus clubs. Basketball with Asians would be the easier target before football. Get athletes into the marketing to the campus by meeting with the clubs to get them out. It would help if the athletes were a lot more community minded like in the Lorne Davies days when they knew they had to have support.

Students paying an Ath. and Rec fee is what was put in place some years ago at SFU.

The Lions too need to market into the Asian communities too.

Manchester United no longer have the South Korean player but they now have a Japanese player. These are deserving to be there players BUT if anyone thinks this is also not about marketing their product in Asia, they're dreaming.

Clubs like Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester United are so big here that when there is a national disaster they issue statements just like countries and these are read on TV in this region just like those coming from the USA, Canada and UK.

Toppy Vann wrote:
When I played high school football - early 60s - Britannia was the power house with guards the same size as their running backs - not that big as they were Japanese and number 1. We had the biggest offense in the league at NVHS but came third two years as Britannia and Killarney were very strong.

Small world. I attended Britannia. The two guards were 5' 5" and the running back was 5' 3". We didn't have the biggest team but arguably the toughest. The coach was Bill Vance a real taskmaster. You didn't dare lose or you pay the price at the next practice

TheLionKing wrote:

Toppy Vann wrote:
When I played high school football - early 60s - Britannia was the power house with guards the same size as their running backs - not that big as they were Japanese and number 1. We had the biggest offense in the league at NVHS but came third two years as Britannia and Killarney were very strong.

Small world. I attended Britannia. The two guards were 5' 5" and the running back was 5' 3". We didn't have the biggest team but arguably the toughest. The coach was Bill Vance a real taskmaster. You didn't dare lose or you pay the price at the next practice

I graduated from Britannia too! But the football program was long gone by then. Bill Vance wasn't though and he was a real taskmaster. Looking back now I wish there were more teachers like him though, he helped. His daughter co-hosts Breakfast Television now (Jody Vance)........

A shame that high schools such as Britannia, Killarney, King George, West Vancouver, North Vancouver, Delbrook no longer have football programs. It was high school football that got me interested in the CFL.

Two Brit alumnis went on to play in the CFL: Steve Gelley with the Riders and Barry Houlihan with the Lions. Another went to play quarterback with the UBC Thunderbirds

Jim Mullin wrote:On the Asian question:

Have any of the athletics departments gone directly to the ethnic student clubs to court them as customers? It's a rhetorical question, since I know the answer.

Yes, I know the answer as well and that's the issue I've brought up a few times before with regards to affirmative action - it applies to the lack of women students in engineering, but not to the lack of men students in nursing. It applies to Blacks and possibly Hispanics (at least in America) but not to Asians even in areas in which Asians are clearly underrepresented (college sports).

Funny thing is, when I called basketball at Stanford about seven years ago, I saw plenty of ethnic and foriegn students in the stands. Now why is it that way there, but not here in Vancouver?

One reason might be because the Bay Area is fairly large and most students live on campus or near campus and it may be inconvenient to travel to farther places like San Francisco so they get involved with campus activities, while Greater Vancouver is still relatively small with good public transportation and most Asian students live with their parents so they are not as involved with campus events and they'd rather go to places like the Asian shopping malls in Richmond. In addition, this a very, very generalization, it appears that most Asians in America are more Americanized than the Asians in Canada given the fact Canadian cities are smaller and their Asian communities are centralized, while in America the Asian communities are more dispersed. Furthermore, there appears to be more Asian immigration to Canada than to USA given the laxer immigration laws in Canada.

Here's another reason why I find university (it's not called college in Canada) football more compelling to watch at times than its professional cousin:

Every coach in the CFL is really doing the same thing on offense and there is a lack of contrasting styles. You used to see clash of philosophies, but not any more. Perhaps the small eight team league has created this familiarity and stalemate.

That's not the case in the CIS, where you have various offensive and defensive schemes at play spread out amongst 26 teams in four conferences. I prefer not to talk about the extreme of Gary Etcheverry's double wing offense which got him fired after five games... but it's fun to watch and consider teams who actually match up against others. We've seen that gap close in the CFL to the level of mundane predictability at times.

sj-roc wrote: It doesn't help that the stadium is isolated from the rest of a campus that is itself completely isolated from the rest of the city and the entire Lower Mainland for that matter. This is in stark contrast to a university like, say, Dalhousie where the campus is completely intermingled with the surrounding city and you can't avoid it.

I did my PhD at UBC and in my years there, I never once went to a T-birds game, nor do I know of anyone else who ever did so

True. I did my undergrad at UBC but never attended a Tbirds game or knew of anyone who did either. When I attended Dal Law, I went to St. Mary's Huskies games every Saturday home game. Also Atlantic Bowls which were a riot ( as in fun).

Speaking of the Thunderbirds, here's a very good picture and recent article about the 1982 UBC squad when they captured their first Vanier Cup.


http://www.canadawest.org/news/2012/9/2 ... 21153.aspx

The two finalists from last year are back for the semi-finals, and there's a good chance that it will be a re-match of last year's Vanier Cup.

Calgary Dinosaurs vs. McMaster Marauders
Acadia Axemen vs. Laval Rouge et Or

Are any of you alumni from those universities? Which university will you be rooting for?

Robbie wrote:

Jim Mullin wrote:On the Asian question:

Have any of the athletics departments gone directly to the ethnic student clubs to court them as customers? It's a rhetorical question, since I know the answer.

Yes, I know the answer as well and that's the issue I've brought up a few times before with regards to affirmative action - it applies to the lack of women students in engineering, but not to the lack of men students in nursing. It applies to Blacks and possibly Hispanics (at least in America) but not to Asians even in areas in which Asians are clearly underrepresented (college sports).

Funny thing is, when I called basketball at Stanford about seven years ago, I saw plenty of ethnic and foreign students in the stands. Now why is it that way there, but not here in Vancouver?

One reason might be because the Bay Area is fairly large and most students live on campus or near campus and it may be inconvenient to travel to farther places like San Francisco so they get involved with campus activities, while Greater Vancouver is still relatively small with good public transportation and most Asian students live with their parents so they are not as involved with campus events and they'd rather go to places like the Asian shopping malls in Richmond. In addition, this a very, very generalization, it appears that most Asians in America are more Americanized than the Asians in Canada given the fact Canadian cities are smaller and their Asian communities are centralized, while in America the Asian communities are more dispersed. Furthermore, there appears to be more Asian immigration to Canada than to USA given the laxer immigration laws in Canada.

These comments are spot on.

When I was at SFU in the days when the campus was smaller team players did a lot of the marketing to get classmates to games. They'd ask people in the cafes if they were going to the games and then come back and ask how they enjoyed the game. This was '69-72 and SFU was small.

But marketing to the ethnic clubs is key and friendships outside the team are important to build support.

Coaches too were regularly all around campus during the day marketing - Lorne Davies, Pokey Allen, Tom Walker - these guys were visible and known to students.

Basketball was similar with coaches from Jon Lee Kootnekoff to Stan Stewardson. You'd see them in the cafeterias talking to students.

Kooty would bring in half time shows like flamenco dancers and that too made it interesting.