Riders 45 - Lions 18 -- Post Game Comments

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Lui05
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The_Pauser wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:10 pm
Anyway, I've said my piece. I'll move on now and hopefully we'll have some better, football related topics to discuss going forward.

Cheers. :beer:
Just to add a little levity... English is a beautiful language. I was going to vehemently disagree with your hope on first read. But on re-reading, I see the comma after "better", making it an adjective of the noun "topics" and not the noun "football". :wink:

Hear Hear!!

:beer:


I went to a restaurant that serves "breakfast at any time". So I ordered French Toast during the Renaissance.

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The_Pauser
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Lui05 wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 4:03 pm
The_Pauser wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 2:10 pm
Anyway, I've said my piece. I'll move on now and hopefully we'll have some better, football related topics to discuss going forward.

Cheers. :beer:
Just to add a little levity... English is a beautiful language. I was going to vehemently disagree with your hope on first read. But on re-reading, I see the comma after "better", making it an adjective of the noun "topics" and not the noun "football". :wink:

Hear Hear!!

:beer:
Haha. I wish there was better football in our future. So far there haven't been enough changes for my liking. It's a bye week though so who knows what they have in store but one would think if they were going to make an OC change it would be done sooner than later.

If someone told you a coach was going to be fired after the last game, and that it would be a Riders coach, would you have believed them? Lol. Riders fired their D-Line coach today.


Roar you Lions roar!
JohnnyMusso
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Hervey will not fire anyone? He makes one token change for an American OL from Calgary that has barely played last 2 years.

The team is going down the tubes and all these minor changes Hervey makes for the Tiger Cat game will not change anything. Even without Masoli, the Tiger Cats will beat the Lions. Their defence is good and they playing at home.

I for one hope Hervey is fired at year end and hope they fire Claybrooks and most of his staff. The team has shown no progress over the last 7 weeks and as someone said they are getting worse. Making minor trades is not the answer. I posted the trade in a post on the Additions topic and not one reply for no one cares for it is a token move. The team is sinking and I do not think Hervey will be able to stop it. Just way too many changes need to be made and the coach and his staff not good enough.


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WestCoastJoe
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7 games in. This one must have been the worst. And not really unexpected.

We are last in points for in the West. We are last in points against in the league (uneven schedule of course).

Lankford had two amazing returns. He is a bona fide burner.

We had 0 sacks, and gave up 4 sacks. Reilly was hit a number of times beyond that. And it even seemed like the Riders went easy on him. laying off some hits that could been taken.

Time of possession. 38:03 for the Riders. 21:57 for us. A debacle.

About the worst impression was that the players showed that they have no hope. They always put their bodies on the line. But there is no resolve to win, to do what is necessary to win. There is no leadership from the coaches, and there is little or no leadership from the players, aside from Mike Reilly always being willing to pay the price. He can't do it alone.

Strangely enough, it seems to me the one group that busts their butts is the O Line. But they need help. Even going 5 on 5, with that one blitzer, is more than they can handle. Hot routes? Dump off passes to a RB coming out of the backfield. Focusing on the run game to put the D Line on their heels?

I would not be surprised to see some significant player cuts. Starters. A couple maybe. I won't speculate on names. But maybe one from defence and one from offence. I cannot imagine Ed Hervey standing relatively pat.

Just imo.


John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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MikeAK
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David wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:18 pm
MikeAK wrote:
Sun Jul 28, 2019 11:38 am
Am happy to say I was at the game last night. Even during a loss the CFL experience in person is a lot of fun. I had a blast.

...Other than that though, the CFL is such a great live experience. I love it and wish there were more early start games so I could get there more.
Thanks for bringing this up, MikeAK. I think this point gets lost as we're almost all too emotionally connected to this club. As someone who attends all games, I can say with a degree of certainty the vast majority of people who attend appear to have a great time.

Are blowouts fun? Of course not. But that doesn't stop fans (and lots of kids) at Lions home games from mugging it up for jumbotron time, or belting out "Sweet Caroline" or flexing for the "Flex Cam." Hell, the Lions didn't even get booed yesterday during or after that pathetic performance.

Now, this doesn't mean this free fall won't affect attendance. It most certainly will. But I wouldn't say those that casually attend Lions games won't ever attend another one after a pitiful blowout. This is more the (over) reaction of long-time fans.


DH :cool:
I wish I could get to more games because I just love the CFL live experience. Not sure if it will do anything but I emailed my rep within the Lions office suggesting more early start times especially during the summer months. Hopefully my email is not the only one they get.

The team has also done a great job of cleaning up the hooliganism that use to go on all too frequently. In probably the first time ever I saw no fights and there was a good number of people there

I hate losing as much as the next but I have to tip my hat to the team. I had one of the better experiences at a game in a long time. Once this team gets on track it's going to be a good ticket in town to have.

It was just an overall great experience.


Ballistic Bob
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Anyone know where to check 50 50 tickets. Thnx BB


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Blitz
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The Pauser wrote:

My comment about Jennings was my own observation. He had that deer in the headlights look every time he snapped the ball, leading to bad decisions, rushed throws, and turnovers. The fact that he doesn't look any better this year in a completely new environment suggests the problem for Jennings was not simply the Lions coaching staff.

It seems to me like you get caught up in tunnel vision. You latch on to one issue and you block out everything else. You fail to recognize that Jennings himself just isn't good enough, while also being part of an inept offensive system.

Jennings, being a bad QB, wasn't going to succeed no matter what the offensive system was. But that doesn't mean that the system Jarious installed is going to be successful with a different QB as we've seen this year.

If you were correct, and Jennings was simply held back by a poor offensive system and bad coaching, then one would expect him to look a lot better this year in Ottawa. His QB efficiency this year is 48.3 (albeit in a small 2-game sample size).


Your response, the Pauser, is that I get caught up in 'tunnel vision'. I have always a person who is not only a self-critic but am also someone who listens to constructive criticism.

I WILL REFLECT ON YOUR PERSONAL COMMENT

So I will ponder your comment that I have tunnel vision but throughout my life, I have received the opposive view, so your comment is an usual one for me. I have always been considered a big picture guy and a long picture guy whose major weakness has often been not focusing enough on certain details.

That notion is even supported by the way that I post on Lionbackers. As you and many others are aware, on Lionbackers, I find it difficult to post without a big picture view of things and I often make spelling mistakes without correction.

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE

So, as I consider your viewpoint that I have 'tunnel vision' I hope that you will consider a thought that I have about you. It deals with a concept called 'cognitive dissonance'.

Its kind of a fancy couple of words and I don't throw them out easily(like Wally threw out discombobulated, which was the only word I ever heard him use that was more than five letters long other than 'execution' or lack thereof :wink: )

Its difficult to hold two different concepts in one's head about the same topic. That is what cognitive dissonance is.

You made an assumption (based upon your personal observation, as I assume that you have little evidence to support your argument) that Jennings had 'deer in the headlights syndrome' last year and made plenty of bad decisions. You also have a very strong opinion that Travis Lulay and Mike Reilly were good quarterbacks and Jonathan Jennings wasn't a good quarterback.

JUDGING USING THE SAME STANDARD

However statistically (the evidence) does not support that Jennings had 'deer in the headlights syndrome' last season and Travis Lulay and Mike Reilly did not or have not experienced 'deer in the headlights syndrome playing in Jarious offence.

Either all three have had 'deer in the headlights syndrome' or none have had it, while playing in Jarious scheme (or all three have had it a little bit).

The evidence, based upon passing completion rates, interception rates, touchdown to interception ratio, and quarterback efficiency prove that all three have performed and played very similarly in Jarious system.

Therefore, if Jennings was guilty of ‘rushed throws and bad decisions and turnovers’ then Lulay and Reilly have to be held to that same standard as well and their stats also either indicate ‘bad decisions and turnovers’ and all three have struggled due to Jarious scheme combined with inadequate offensive line play (which can also be partially blamed on scheme)

OBSERVATION CAN BE FAULTY

In terms of your 'observation', which is the evidence you provide to support your viewpoint, observation, not backed by evidence is often faulty. For example, many people have been executed based upon eye witness evidence that the eye witness said there were 100% certain, and which DNA evidence has overturned and the eye witness was proven to be dead wrong.

Sometimes we see things the way we choose to see them rather than the way they really are. Sometimes we just get things wrong at first.

SEARCHING TO FIND SUPPORT

You also attempt to provide support for your argument that Jennings, in a short body of work (2 games) in Ottawa, has played poorly. I don't see that as relevant. Travis Lulay could be in Ottawa this season and playing poorly. So could Mike Reilly be playing poorly in Ottawa if he was quarterbacking them this season. Dominque Davis has also struggled as Ottawa’s quarterback this season.

Jennings completed 15/18 (83.3%) passes for 125 yds, in his last game and threw a touchdown pass. He had 2 inteceptions early and then settled down. Certainly nothing to write home about but it was a much better performance than Mike Reilly had in a must win game at home against Regina last week.

Once again, in your comments, you hold two quarterbacks to two different standards, while trying to justify your reasoning.

Ottawa lost their offensive coordinator just before training camp. Their recievers coach is presently running their offence. They've lost a lot of talented offensive players from last year's roster.

I do think that Jonathan Jennings lost a lot of his confidence, over time, playing in B.C. So did Travis Lulay. If what is going on, keeps going on, in B.C. this season, Mike Reilly could end up being a shell of his former self too. He looked like a shell of his former self last game.

Its happened to many good quarterbacks here in B.C. as the hits mounted, the sack totals piled up, the injuries keep coming, and the pressure kept mounting.

AQUIRING WISDOM

When a person has an original notion and then evidence mounts that that their initial notion is wrong or perhaps not quite accurate, that person has an opportunity to adapt by modifying their initial thought. We call that learning or learning from experience.

However, not all people do that. Something called the ego gets in the way and runs the show. In that case, the person will stick with their initial notion, no matter how misguided it may be.

Wise people learn and adapt. But some people never aquire wisdom and stay 'stuck' because the ego gets in the way of the acquisition of wisdom. Thankfully the story of humans, overall, has been a history of incredible progress because we have been an adaptive, rather than a stuck creature. (But if Wally had been the leader of the tribe, he would have had us still hiding in caves and never inventing the wheel)

Perhaps the best example of that is Wally and short yardage on second down. Wally believed you should be able to sent in the jumbo team and always be able to successfully football up the gut, no matter what. Well, defenses stacked the gut, linebackers came over the top, and we often were stuffed on short yardage.

Wally would get as mad as a hive of hornets each time we were stuffed and yell at his lineman as they ran off the field. It was like a Monty Python circus but Wally retired still stuck in his thinking about second and short because his ego could not be wrong.

THE SHIELD AND THE SWORD

When I coached, I always had a sign above my door that said “Check your ego at the door’. It was there for everyone, including me. I thought it was important because the ego functions as both a shield (defending) and a sword (attacking) while getting in the way of truth or success or both.

Since you felt comfortable making a personal observation of me (that I have tunnel vision) I hope that you will also be open to consider that you might be avoiding cognitive dissonance by sticking to an original comment you have made and will not accept anything different because you would find it too painful.

FUTURE POSTS

With that said, however, I hope that personal comments can be avoided. I enjoy discussing football with you, whether agreeing or disagreeing in the past and I hope we can continue to be that way in the future.

But in the meantime, I will attempt to avoid the ‘tunnel’ as I hope you will consider that changing one’s mind, when evidence proves otherwise, is wise.

Hopefully, neither of us will become ‘discombobulated’ while doing so. :wink:


"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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The_Pauser
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Blitz wrote:
Tue Jul 30, 2019 8:26 am
The Pauser wrote:

My comment about Jennings was my own observation. He had that deer in the headlights look every time he snapped the ball, leading to bad decisions, rushed throws, and turnovers. The fact that he doesn't look any better this year in a completely new environment suggests the problem for Jennings was not simply the Lions coaching staff.

It seems to me like you get caught up in tunnel vision. You latch on to one issue and you block out everything else. You fail to recognize that Jennings himself just isn't good enough, while also being part of an inept offensive system.

Jennings, being a bad QB, wasn't going to succeed no matter what the offensive system was. But that doesn't mean that the system Jarious installed is going to be successful with a different QB as we've seen this year.

If you were correct, and Jennings was simply held back by a poor offensive system and bad coaching, then one would expect him to look a lot better this year in Ottawa. His QB efficiency this year is 48.3 (albeit in a small 2-game sample size).


Your response, the Pauser, is that I get caught up in 'tunnel vision'. I have always a person who is not only a self-critic but am also someone who listens to constructive criticism.

I WILL REFLECT ON YOUR PERSONAL COMMENT

So I will ponder your comment that I have tunnel vision but throughout my life, I have received the opposive view, so your comment is an usual one for me. I have always been considered a big picture guy and a long picture guy whose major weakness has often been not focusing enough on certain details.

That notion is even supported by the way that I post on Lionbackers. As you and many others are aware, on Lionbackers, I find it difficult to post without a big picture view of things and I often make spelling mistakes without correction.

COGNITIVE DISSONANCE

So, as I consider your viewpoint that I have 'tunnel vision' I hope that you will consider a thought that I have about you. It deals with a concept called 'cognitive dissonance'.

Its kind of a fancy couple of words and I don't throw them out easily(like Wally threw out discombobulated, which was the only word I ever heard him use that was more than five letters long other than 'execution' or lack thereof :wink: )

Its difficult to hold two different concepts in one's head about the same topic. That is what cognitive dissonance is.

You made an assumption (based upon your personal observation, as I assume that you have little evidence to support your argument) that Jennings had 'deer in the headlights syndrome' last year and made plenty of bad decisions. You also have a very strong opinion that Travis Lulay and Mike Reilly were good quarterbacks and Jonathan Jennings wasn't a good quarterback.

JUDGING USING THE SAME STANDARD

However statistically (the evidence) does not support that Jennings had 'deer in the headlights syndrome' last season and Travis Lulay and Mike Reilly did not or have not experienced 'deer in the headlights syndrome playing in Jarious offence.

Either all three have had 'deer in the headlights syndrome' or none have had it, while playing in Jarious scheme (or all three have had it a little bit).

The evidence, based upon passing completion rates, interception rates, touchdown to interception ratio, and quarterback efficiency prove that all three have performed and played very similarly in Jarious system.

Therefore, if Jennings was guilty of ‘rushed throws and bad decisions and turnovers’ then Lulay and Reilly have to be held to that same standard as well and their stats also either indicate ‘bad decisions and turnovers’ and all three have struggled due to Jarious scheme combined with inadequate offensive line play (which can also be partially blamed on scheme)

OBSERVATION CAN BE FAULTY

In terms of your 'observation', which is the evidence you provide to support your viewpoint, observation, not backed by evidence is often faulty. For example, many people have been executed based upon eye witness evidence that the eye witness said there were 100% certain, and which DNA evidence has overturned and the eye witness was proven to be dead wrong.

Sometimes we see things the way we choose to see them rather than the way they really are. Sometimes we just get things wrong at first.

SEARCHING TO FIND SUPPORT

You also attempt to provide support for your argument that Jennings, in a short body of work (2 games) in Ottawa, has played poorly. I don't see that as relevant. Travis Lulay could be in Ottawa this season and playing poorly. So could Mike Reilly be playing poorly in Ottawa if he was quarterbacking them this season. Dominque Davis has also struggled as Ottawa’s quarterback this season.

Jennings completed 15/18 (83.3%) passes for 125 yds, in his last game and threw a touchdown pass. He had 2 inteceptions early and then settled down. Certainly nothing to write home about but it was a much better performance than Mike Reilly had in a must win game at home against Regina last week.

Once again, in your comments, you hold two quarterbacks to two different standards, while trying to justify your reasoning.

Ottawa lost their offensive coordinator just before training camp. Their recievers coach is presently running their offence. They've lost a lot of talented offensive players from last year's roster.

I do think that Jonathan Jennings lost a lot of his confidence, over time, playing in B.C. So did Travis Lulay. If what is going on, keeps going on, in B.C. this season, Mike Reilly could end up being a shell of his former self too. He looked like a shell of his former self last game.

Its happened to many good quarterbacks here in B.C. as the hits mounted, the sack totals piled up, the injuries keep coming, and the pressure kept mounting.

AQUIRING WISDOM

When a person has an original notion and then evidence mounts that that their initial notion is wrong or perhaps not quite accurate, that person has an opportunity to adapt by modifying their initial thought. We call that learning or learning from experience.

However, not all people do that. Something called the ego gets in the way and runs the show. In that case, the person will stick with their initial notion, no matter how misguided it may be.

Wise people learn and adapt. But some people never aquire wisdom and stay 'stuck' because the ego gets in the way of the acquisition of wisdom. Thankfully the story of humans, overall, has been a history of incredible progress because we have been an adaptive, rather than a stuck creature. (But if Wally had been the leader of the tribe, he would have had us still hiding in caves and never inventing the wheel)

Perhaps the best example of that is Wally and short yardage on second down. Wally believed you should be able to sent in the jumbo team and always be able to successfully football up the gut, no matter what. Well, defenses stacked the gut, linebackers came over the top, and we often were stuffed on short yardage.

Wally would get as mad as a hive of hornets each time we were stuffed and yell at his lineman as they ran off the field. It was like a Monty Python circus but Wally retired still stuck in his thinking about second and short because his ego could not be wrong.

THE SHIELD AND THE SWORD

When I coached, I always had a sign above my door that said “Check your ego at the door’. It was there for everyone, including me. I thought it was important because the ego functions as both a shield (defending) and a sword (attacking) while getting in the way of truth or success or both.

Since you felt comfortable making a personal observation of me (that I have tunnel vision) I hope that you will also be open to consider that you might be avoiding cognitive dissonance by sticking to an original comment you have made and will not accept anything different because you would find it too painful.

FUTURE POSTS

With that said, however, I hope that personal comments can be avoided. I enjoy discussing football with you, whether agreeing or disagreeing in the past and I hope we can continue to be that way in the future.

But in the meantime, I will attempt to avoid the ‘tunnel’ as I hope you will consider that changing one’s mind, when evidence proves otherwise, is wise.

Hopefully, neither of us will become ‘discombobulated’ while doing so. :wink:
I love how people think it's okay to make personal comments towards me, but then all of a sudden act like they're the ones taking the high road after I respond in a similar fashion. C'mon Blitz, you're better than this. My comment about your tunnel vision was a direct response to your comment about me supposedly not being able to admit when I'm wrong.

Regarding the rest of your post: I'm not wrong about my criticism of Jennings. Again, I will use his play in Ottawa as example of this. As I previously said: if his struggles were purely because of the BC Lions coaching staff then he would be performing better on a new team. He is not. In fact, he is actually performing worse. You choose to ignore this, while simultaneously passing off his latest start as something that's decent? You also claim that Dominique Davis has struggled...since when was Dominique Davis a good QB? You claim that Mike Reilly could struggle in Ottawa. Sure....I guess you can make up that claim. But what proof do you have? Trevor Harris didn't struggle in Ottawa last year. It's almost as if good QB's play well, and bad QB's struggle.

Your part about "acquiring wisdom" applies to you too. Or perhaps you simply don't understand my position so here I'll spell it out for you in as simple terms as possible:

My position is that Jonathon Jennings is not a good QB who also struggled under a poor OC.

If your position is that Jennings is a good QB, then the onus is on you to prove this statement wrong, despite the stats suggesting otherwise.


Roar you Lions roar!
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Toppy Vann
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Hambone wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:59 pm
By looks of the posts on this page I'm glad I haven't been online since before the game and jumped straight to page 7. I'm not going to waste my time reading the first 6. Therefore apologies if I cover turf already covered.

Main observation was about play calling. Early on it seemed everything called took time to develop, time that the Riders 5 and 6 man rush wasn't going to give. On their only sustained drive of the game they started to move the ball when they went to some quick hitter type plays to get away from the rush. Amazing how that works.

As big of a concern as the OL is I think the DL is just as bad if not worse. Zero pressure for the 7th game and counting. Is that personnel or Stubler's tired old scheme that opposing offenses have been facing for so long they know exactly what is coming.

Former Lion RT Cory Mantyka was sitting across the aisle and 2 rows below me. As we were leaving after the final gun I asked him how his shoulder was and if he was ready to "strap the pads on again". He laughed then basically went on a rant totally disgusted with the performance, lack of passion, lack of push back or physicality.

Hambone:

The practices I have taken in and games watched has led me to this same conclusion. It's all too slow to develop on offence and too much too close to the LOS.

Pass routes designed so receivers aren't looking for the ball and with the QB protection collapsing the QB is either on his butt or looking for a short REC. These routes are designed for a QB with lots of time in the pocket.

Run play is the same either left side or right for variation. Unlike the Riders option where Fajardo is still young enough to run it's a handoff.

DEF line is brutal.

As to lack of passion, pushback - it's like they're so robotic they're going thru the motions so as to be the one guy in film study who was in his place even though no play was made by them.

Passion also fades with lack of success and the same old crap.


"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
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Sir Purrcival
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I agree with Hambone on the lack of success comment.

This problem is not a new to this year problem. This team is what I would describe as being in the process of getting snake bit. For years we have seen a slow but steady downward progression. Each season seemingly plagued by many of the same problems in a year after year trend. The players see it, the fans see it and both these groups suffer from the feeling that no changes fix the problems . That is a management issue pure and simple. It is their job to go out and find the personnel both on and off the field to produce a competitive product. For years management has basically failed in this regard (that includes both past and present management teams). This year a new guy has basically looked forward by looking to the past by bringing in a bunch of former players from a previous employment. That is no way to guide what has to be a dynamic enterprise. Recycled players, recycled coaches = recycled result (in this case abject failure).


Tell me how long must a fan be strong? Ans. Always.
Ballistic Bob
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TheLionKing wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:49 pm
https://www.bclions.com/5050-draw/
Thnx BB


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Gridiron Ernie
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Here's another recent pondering from JC Abbott, I don't think anyone here has posted this yet -- but sorry in advance if I missed it. Turns out he's a Vancouver-raised youth coach and UBC student. His fuller identity had been a mystery to me, until this article's wee bio blurb (down at author's signature).
Speaking of good writers - I find myself missing the ruminations of some of the recently retired local newspaper sports scribes whose insights we've lost over the last couple years. Find myself wondering what their takes would be on the current Leos (players and coaches and management).
But sure do appreciate a nice little bundle of solid writers here on Lionbackers. Thanks guys! These are exasperating times for a Lions fan.
Anyhow, here's the link to Abbott: https://3downnation.com/2019/07/29/milk ... ders-loss/


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pennw
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Hambone wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 3:59 pm
Zero pressure for the 7th game and counting. Is that personnel or Stubler's tired old scheme that opposing offenses have been facing for so long they know exactly what is coming.
It's the tired old schemes that every opposing offense knows like the back of their hand .


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pennw
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Blitz wrote:
Mon Jul 29, 2019 6:29 am
Both Claybrooks and Stubler have coached championship defenses.
So has Wally Bouno .


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