Lions ownership discussion thread (Topics merged into here)

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Toppy Vann
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Hambone wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 6:26 pm
Blitz wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:43 pm
Why did Braley secretly loan money to Hamilton first and then the Argos?

Braley only bought the Argos after his secret loans to the team were made public.

For Braley, it was always about money making. Nothing wrong with that. He is a businessman. Its just that things did not turn out, as he anticipated they would.
I'm unaware of any loans to Hamilton and would be happy to read about it if links exist. I am fully aware that he dld purchase the Ticats and own them for 3 years thus saving them from what had become the embarrassment of being owned by Harold Ballard at his most senile. Is it possible these loans you speak of happened in support of the Ticats when they went back to community ownership after Braley?

Add them up and he:
1) Got the CFL off the hook for BC who had to operate the Lions for a few months after Skalbania walked away from them.
2) Saved the CFL from being left holding the bag over the Argos.
3) Rescued the Ticats from Harold Ballard's greasy mitts. Now if you want to talk about doing things for money Pal Hal is a classic example.
The CFL and all BC Lions owe David Braley a huge debt of gratitude.

I do recall he was reputed to have loaned other teams money during dire times but there is nothing wrong with this. He's an owner and not involved in fixing games (like in other sports including soccer) so I'd be one of the last to criticize that.

If we were to critique any businessman why not those rich dudes who didn't see any money in the CFL and passed the Lions by.
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Blitz
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Toppy Vann wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:47 am
KnowItAll wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:14 pm
Blitz wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:43 pm


For Braley, it was always about money making.
I don't think so. Plenty of ways to get much better return than investing in the CFL.
Braley's desire to keep the CFL whole and working is what motivated him.

KIA is right. Better ways to make $$$ than a football team.
I respectfully disagree.
I view Braley as a businessman and making loans to CFL franchises was one of his business choices to make money off those loans, which were secretly done.

I also view Braley as a businessman who also chose to purchase two CFL franchises at low prices with the goal of making money from them in the longer run. Braley bought low with the goal of selling high. It did not and has not worked out for him, I don't believe, as much as he hoped.

Most professional sports franchises have been lucrative for owners. Some have lost money on operating costs but recouped those losses (which could also be written off in a variety of ways) and made huge gains when they sold the franchise.

Successful businessmen also gain much notoriety when they own a sports franchise. For some they are a toy and for others, they create a much greater public profile.

I'm not taking away the positive's that Braley's investments meant at the time he purchased the Lions and the Argos. But I don't view him as a magnaminous individual who got involved to save the CFL. In terms of his ownership of the Lions, he was mostly an absentee, hands off owner who had no previous involvements or interests in British Columbia.

I view Braley's interests in the CFL as mainly business decisions and an opportunity to create a much greater public profile for himself. Nothing wrong with that but I also don't view him as a hero for doing so, based on that concept.

I will look for an article on Braley's first secret loans. Here is an article from 2009 that covered some of this topic.


Tuesday, June 16, 2009
On David Braley, the Argonauts, the CFL and the NHL

[Photo: B.C. Lions owner David Braley (left) with the Grey Cup, B.C. Premier Gordon Campbell, former CFL commissioner Tom Wright and 2005 Grey Cup Committee Chair Dennis Skulsky in 2004. From gov.bc.ca].
Quite the story in this morning's Globe and Mail from David Naylor and Matthew Sekeres. According to the Globe, B.C. Lions owner David Braley "secretly put up half of the $2-million franchise fee when David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski purchased the Toronto Argonauts out of bankruptcy in the fall of 2003, and continued to lend money to the CFL club".

The story says the deal was made without informing then-CFL commissioner Tom Wright (who I spoke with not that long ago about the Coyotes-to-Hamilton situation) and has continued to the present day without the knowledge of current CFL commissioner Mark Cohon.

No sources are named and all sides appear to be denying the story, but in very carefully worded terms. For example, consider these comments from Sokolowski:

"When asked yesterday if Braley had an ownership interest in the Argos, Sokolowski vehemently denied it.

'Absolutely not, David Cynamon and myself are the owners,' he said. 'There are no formal financial records whatsoever in terms of him being an owner.'

When asked whether there were any financial arrangements between the Argos and Braley, Sokolowski replied: '[Braley] is not an owner. He has never been an owner. It’s a private company. That’s it.'

That's quite the non-denial denial; Braley doesn't have an "ownership interest", but there's no denial of financial arrangements between the parties.

Later in the story, Braley says he's loaned money to various CFL owners from time to time, including the Sherwood Schwarz group that sold the Argos to Cynamon and Sokolowski in 2003. That would support claims of his involvement in the franchise transfer. Like the one offered by Sokolowski, Braley's denial of ownership interests is also very limited:

'I don’t have any ownership interest at all with the Toronto Argonauts and I never have. … There is no paperwork and there’s nothing to be able to prove that.'

Those comments certainly doesn't prove the Globe story, but there is enough there to give it some credence. The full truth of the matter certainly is still up in the air for the time being, though. The bigger question is what it means if these allegations are true, and that's one Globe columnist Stephen Brunt tries to address with this piece.

Brunt makes some good points about how Braley may have become involved and how his involvement may have preserved the Argonauts (and by extension, the league; without a Toronto franchise, say goodbye to national sponsorship and television deals). I'm not sure if I agree with the last part of his piece, though:

"In stepped Braley with a solution – one that he could certainly afford, but one that would be controversial in most leagues. He offered Cynamon and Sokolowski some financial assistance – and no one would have to know. ...

Almost all good – except that, on an absolutely fundamental level, you can’t do that in professional sports. Not even if it’s just a “loan” between businessmen. Not even if you’ve done it before for other owners in the past. Not even if there’s no paper trail, no formal partnership agreement."

Furthermore, consider the people involved. David Braley is not Jerry Jones or Al Davis, looking to make himself the team's de facto general manager. The portrait of him that emerges in Bob Ackles' excellent book The Waterboy is a limited one of a reclusive owner who hires good people on the business and football side and lets them run the show.

That certainly happened in B.C. under Braley's tenure with Ackles and coach/general manager Wally Buono. If the story of massive loans to the Argonauts' owners is true, it isn't difficult to imagine Braley being even less assertive on the football side when he's only partly involved (and well-known as the owner of another team). It would be very hard to see him as some sort of tyrant that marched down and started telling the football guys how to run things.

The deal's image is still problematic and it's certainly not a good idea in general to have an owner involved in multiple franchises if it can be avoided, but this is perhaps the exception that proves the rule. For one thing, the CFL absolutely needs a strong, successful Toronto franchise.

With the Argonauts doing well, it's a national league; without them, it's much more of a regional one. There's zero question of relocating the franchise, but it was certainly difficult to find a buyer for it in 2003 thanks to the disastrous Schwarz era. Thus, something had to be done to sweeten the deal. Moreover, if you have to have an owner involved in multiple franchises, a guy like Braley who's largely hands-off on the football side would be the purrfect candidate.

What's concerning is the secrecy surrounding the deal and the (apparent) lack of information on it received by two separate commissioners. Presume for a moment that the allegations reported in the Globe are completely accurate as to Braley's involvement.

If that information was known by everyone in the league and released at the time of the sale, would it really be a big problem? Imagine a press conference where Wright explains the situation and says that Braley has generously offered to step forward with the necessary cash as a loan to allow Cynamon and Sokolowski to purchase the team and keep it local.

The CFL could say that it's not ideal, but given the importance of the Argonauts and Braley's reputation, it makes sense. Tweak the deal slightly so Braley's only putting up 49.998 per cent of the money (and thus Cynamon and Sokolowski have a majority interest), make it clear that he can't make any decisions for the franchise without their approval, and you don't have much of a problem.

Sure, it reduces Cynamon and Sokolowski's status in the Toronto pecking order somewhat (which may have been why this was kept so secret), but you don't have competitive concerns, you have the league and the fans aware of exactly what's going on and you have a strong Argonauts franchise. That seems like a good solution from this corner.

Keeping the league and the fans in the dark is a substantial problem. There has been far too much infighting and jockeying for position in the CFL over the years, with individual owners often doing what's best for themselves and ignoring what's best for the league.

Often, the commissioner and the league office have been undermined, an all-too-frequent situation that former league president Jeff Giles described very well in his book Bigger Balls: The CFL And Overcoming the Canadian Inferiority Complex. (By the way, Giles is now the athletic director at McMaster University, where Braley is one of the most influential alumni and has an athletic centre named after him).

The owners need to step back and do more to support commissioner Mark Cohon, and that means keeping him in the loop on these sort of deals. The CFL needs a strong, united front more than ever at the moment, given the rising threat from the NFL and the Buffalo Bills' potential relocation.

Secret deals between owners that undermine the commissioner's role do not help with that.
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cromartie
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Let's submit a couple of things here.

1) Braley is and has been an imperfect owner. More of a reactionary during his prime than a strategist.

2) He's become more frugal as time has gone on. Why remains a mystery but it appears to be true that the Braley that owns the team today is not the one who spent pretty freely after Bob Ackles came back. However that came to be, perhaps a desire to maximize a return on investment for his heirs, it did, and that's where we are now.

But, in his own way, he did and, I believe, does love the league. When the league needed someone to step in and keep the Lions afloat. He was there. When someone was needed to keep both GTA teams afloat, he was there. We can argue about the methods but when it came to keeping the CFL alive in markets, he was willing to put his money where his mouth was, sometimes quietly, sometimes notsomuch.

Would new ownership help here? Yes. Am I going to kick dirt on the guy for the past? No. Sunk costs are sunk, and lost opportunities are lost.

A couple of other larger points:

Owning a CFL team in any market outside of Regina is not a license to print money. With the exception of Regina, and Halifax when it gets up and running, the CFL franchise in the market is not the preferred, default sports interest for that market. You are going to play second fiddle to the other sports franchise and entertainment opportunities in that market, and that will significantly impact gate revenue during down years. Vancouver is no exception. It is not an exception. Almost all Canadian markets have the same challenge.

That means three things. First, you have to maximize your television revenue. Second, you have to market the hell out of your product, and that includes an emphasis on niche marketing that the Lions haven't traditionally done a good job of. Whether that's because of budget, former business side operations philosophy or what have you, it has been a problem for this club in this market. Third, you need a competitive product, and to suggest the quality of that product has varied considerably over the past, oh, five years isn't unreasonable.

Sports franchises are one part business and one part public trust. I'll restate what I said above because it's important to understand. I do not want an ownership group to buy the team that doesn't understand this and views this walking in the door as a declining commodity and says so publicly (even if it is an accurate current state assessment). MLSE can treat the Argos like an afterthought in Toronto because the Argos are a blip on the balance sheet. You cannot, can-not have a similar ownership group philosophy in this market or you'll plunge this team back to where they were in the late 1990s. you can't have it in Montreal or Winnipeg or Calgyra or Edmonton or anywhere else.

On the plus side, I think we have the foundation of a very good front office, both on the business side and on the football side. A productive ownership group sets these people up very well to succeed. So it isn't all doom and gloom.
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David
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Thanks for the insight, Cro. For what it's worth LeLacheur is a big advocate of Braley's (and it sounded genuine too, not a sucking up to the boss kind of thing). This was early in the season mind you, but said he has not been denied anything he has asked for (budget wise etc.).

Ambrosie was asked about Vancouver during GC Week and said he was out in Vancouver a few times during the season and is "super excited" about the job LeLacheur and team is doing and sees growth potential (pointed to the excitement in BC Place for Wally's send-off). Montreal will be getting head office's attention in the off-season.


DH :cool:
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cromartie
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David wrote:
Wed Nov 28, 2018 9:58 am
Thanks for the insight, Cro. For what it's worth LeLacheur is a big advocate of Braley's (and it sounded genuine too, not a sucking up to the boss kind of thing). This was early in the season mind you, but said he has not been denied anything he has asked for (budget wise etc.).

Ambrosie was asked about Vancouver during GC Week and said he was out in Vancouver a few times during the season and is "super excited" about the job LeLacheur and team is doing and sees growth potential (pointed to the excitement in BC Place for Wally's send-off). Montreal will be getting head office's attention in the off-season.


DH :cool:
I really believe in LeLacheur and Hervey, much more so than their respective predecessors. A lot of the marketing work that does get produced (especially the video items) is really first rate. So it isn't 1997 around here.

But having active ownership that gives a hoot about the franchise and is realistic and optimistic about its place in the market would do wonders.

However, stop wearing scarves with suits at press conferences. It's a stupid look.
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According to my ticket rep, Braley isn't planning to sell for another 2-3 years. That's the whispers he's hearing.
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This is bad news. David Braley is not doing what is best for the team. He is holding on hoping the market value of the team increases in 2 or 3 years when it will likely drop further. David Braley will probably die first before the team is sold.
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David
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JohnnyMusso wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:39 pm
This is bad news. David Braley is not doing what is best for the team. He is holding on hoping the market value of the team increases in 2 or 3 years when it will likely drop further. David Braley will probably die first before the team is sold.
Well, this ties into my theory that he's waiting for the next Vancouver Grey Cup to sell the team. While the Grey Cup likely won't be here for 3-4 years, but he can buy a little more time if/when Vancouver is awarded.

There isn't really any pressure to sell. While some media members have been calling for new local ownership, and certainly many hard-core fans like us would like him to sell tomorrow, I don't think the average person walking through the turnstiles at BC Place really cares who owns the B.C. Lions. That's the sense I get.


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For those touting David Sidoo as part of any prospective new ownership bid he may be a little pre-occupied with other matters. He's one of those charged in the US College Entrance scandal that erupted in the news today.

https://theprovince.com/news/local-news ... 668f131fad
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Dont know if this has been mentioned but is a Grey Cup date on the horizon for Mr Braley making it financially plausible to keep ownership a few more years.BB
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Ballistic Bob wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:37 pm
Dont know if this has been mentioned but is a Grey Cup date on the horizon for Mr Braley making it financially plausible to keep ownership a few more years.BB
The next available date is 2022. B.C. and Montreal have been mentioned as potential sites. Montreal lost in the bidding for 2020 and wasn't in the running for 2021 due to planned renovations to Olympic Stadium, which is scheduled to get a new $250 million retractable roof by 2023 in advance of the 2026 World Cup. I'm not sure if the stadium will be ready for the 2022 Grey Cup.
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Hambone
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B.C.FAN wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:48 pm
Ballistic Bob wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 2:37 pm
Dont know if this has been mentioned but is a Grey Cup date on the horizon for Mr Braley making it financially plausible to keep ownership a few more years.BB
The next available date is 2022. B.C. and Montreal have been mentioned as potential sites. Montreal lost in the bidding for 2020 and wasn't in the running for 2021 due to planned renovations to Olympic Stadium, which is scheduled to get a new $250 million retractable roof by 2023 in advance of the 2026 World Cup. I'm not sure if the stadium will be ready for the 2022 Grey Cup.
This time around I think the possibility of a Grey Cup is not much of a factor. They weren't even in on the applications this time around meaning 2022 or 2023 are the earliest possibilities. Braley would turn 81 around the opening of 2022 training camp. I don't know how much long range planning a guy wants to do when they hit his vintage. If things don't turnaround soon he could lose more money operating the team over the past 2 or 3 years and leading up to another Grey Cup than he might make off it. I believe the whole Grey Cup model has changed now anyways with all teams getting pieces of the profit pie so it's not like there's the big payday there used to be for hosting. On the other hand the piece I believe they now get every year as a member team might be enough to offset annual operating losses and help them break even or make a modest profit overall. That could reduce any immediate urgency to sell.
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Toppy Vann
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Hambone wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 1:20 pm
For those touting David Sidoo as part of any prospective new ownership bid he may be a little pre-occupied with other matters. He's one of those charged in the US College Entrance scandal that erupted in the news today.

https://theprovince.com/news/local-news ... 668f131fad
Yes, he won't be owning the Lions as the next thing he wears in the colour orange might be a prison jump suit!

Those are very serious charges and while I'm quite shocked at this seemingly upstanding local businessman engaging in this sort of criminal activity, I'm not that surprised that this sort of criminal enterprise is running at as large a scale as this is.

It's being played in the USA as the wealthy and privileged and this is becoming quite a theme down there.

What freaking message is this to your kid(s) when you have someone write their college entrance exams? Secondly, how vain are you if your kid is either not smart enough to pass on their own and you have to get a fake writer to get your kid in ahead of someone who deserves to be there.
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Hambone
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The sad part Toppy was brought up by one university bigwig who rightfully pointed out that every student who gained entry fraudulently came at the expense of another applicant who did everything right. Imagine if you will having the grades etc to gain entry to Yale or Harvard only to find out later you didn't make the cut because some well off family bought or bribed their kid into getting your spot.
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Hambone wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 5:56 pm
The sad part Toppy was brought up by one university bigwig who rightfully pointed out that every student who gained entry fraudulently came at the expense of another applicant who did everything right. Imagine if you will having the grades etc to gain entry to Yale or Harvard only to find out later you didn't make the cut because some well off family bought or bribed their kid into getting your spot.
grrrrrrrrrr
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