Past BC Lions TRADES - Evaluate and Discuss - Good or Bad? (11 years later)

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Robbie
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Robbie wrote:Lions trade Joe Smith for Charles Roberts. :cr:

I guess in a year from now, we can find out whether it was a good trade 8) or a bad trade. :x
For this trade, I'd call it a draw as both traded players were soon released by their new teams after the end of the season.


祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你老鼠年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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KnowItAll
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my vote for worst was trading half of the teams best talent for MD. Its the reason why Joe Galat is my most hated name in all of sport. I still see red whenever I think of that trade.


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Rammer
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KnowItAll wrote:my vote for worst was trading half of the teams best talent for MD. Its the reason why Joe Galat is my most hated name in all of sport. I still see red whenever I think of that trade.
I see alot of orange, black, green and squash. It wasn't our best, but we have done better recently.


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Toppy Vann
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Robbie wrote:
Robbie wrote:Lions trade Joe Smith for Charles Roberts. :cr:

I guess in a year from now, we can find out whether it was a good trade 8) or a bad trade. :x
For this trade, I'd call it a draw as both traded players were soon released by their new teams after the end of the season.
I think this has to be the worst trade next to the giveaway to get Matt Dunigan. I don't think it can be evaluated in terms of both players not playing now as it was a trade that was no good for fans or the individuals.

The Bombers have traditionally been one of the best organizations when it came to rewarding loyalty in their players and it was disgusting how they dumped him mid season after his loyalty to them for a very long career. It is one thing for a player to love being in Van, Mtl or Tor but for guys like Roberts and Stegall and many stars before these guys to stay in Wpg in the cold speaks volumes about the players and their love for the city.

For me Joe Smith was playing well as was Logan. The two of them in the same backfield versus two scat backs might have sent that team to a Grey Cup. Remember the HC says no room in the backfield for Logan and Smith and then all of sudden there is room for Roberts AND Logan? This also coincided with the new found love for Rolly (I-carried-8-times-in-college) Lumbala on a dubious scouting report from Wally's daughter (according to Wally). We all know how Rolly performed last season in getting the yards that Smith had never failed to get their team! His only failure was telling the media he didn't go to games he wasn't playing. To balance that off, Smith was a huge media magnet who got them stories week after week for all his eccentricities. Look at the Brent Johnson story today and even his DC is saying the same as him. That all those changes hurt their team. Brent says they were trying to help each other and then failed t do their own jobs. MB says BJ had changes beside and behind him. Look at our O this year and how it his hurt the starting QB. It all takes time.

My point in decrying the Smith-Roberts trade mid year was that it disrupted the O and depleted what that team needed to use (power running) when the other stuff was not there.

Oh and Joe Galat was the only guy ever to make 25 year Lion Lui Passaglia want to move to another team. However, with today's short love affairs from coaches with players, there might never be another Lui. Whyte looks like he can be a keeper but he is not a Lui type. We know there will never be another Lui who could punt, do the short kick offs so his team got the ball and gamble successfully on 3rd down.
like Passaglia. He was and will be one of a kind.


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korey&dante4ever
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Toppy Vann wrote:Remember the HC says no room in the backfield for Logan and Smith and then all of sudden there is room for Roberts AND Logan?
To this day, this still bugs me soooo much. How fun would it have been to see Joe Smith and Logan sharing touches and carries as the game progressed. How about that change of pace to mess up a defence! Ugghhhhh, I'm still not over that trade!! So frustrating.
IMO, the point of "we can't play two imports in the backfield" didn't get enough attention in the media, and was virtually shrugged off.


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korey&dante4ever wrote:
Toppy Vann wrote:Remember the HC says no room in the backfield for Logan and Smith and then all of sudden there is room for Roberts AND Logan?
To this day, this still bugs me soooo much. How fun would it have been to see Joe Smith and Logan sharing touches and carries as the game progressed. How about that change of pace to mess up a defence! Ugghhhhh, I'm still not over that trade!! So frustrating.
IMO, the point of "we can't play two imports in the backfield" didn't get enough attention in the media, and was virtually shrugged off.
Smith didn't have the want that was necessary to drive him in a two back set, he didn't want to learn patterns to receive the ball. He was shipped out and couldn't crack the Bombers lineup this season. Logan was great down the stretch even with a Stampeder D that knew what we were doing, he was able to rack up yardage all on his own, once he was given a hole. Fantastic back under those circumstances, no need to have another back that would take away reps from him, he was just never given the ball in the short game, so we don't know how he would have done.


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Toppy Vann
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Rammer wrote:
korey&dante4ever wrote:
Toppy Vann wrote:Remember the HC says no room in the backfield for Logan and Smith and then all of sudden there is room for Roberts AND Logan?
To this day, this still bugs me soooo much. How fun would it have been to see Joe Smith and Logan sharing touches and carries as the game progressed. How about that change of pace to mess up a defence! Ugghhhhh, I'm still not over that trade!! So frustrating.
IMO, the point of "we can't play two imports in the backfield" didn't get enough attention in the media, and was virtually shrugged off.
Smith didn't have the want that was necessary to drive him in a two back set, he didn't want to learn patterns to receive the ball. He was shipped out and couldn't crack the Bombers lineup this season. Logan was great down the stretch even with a Stampeder D that knew what we were doing, he was able to rack up yardage all on his own, once he was given a hole. Fantastic back under those circumstances, no need to have another back that would take away reps from him, he was just never given the ball in the short game, so we don't know how he would have done.
GREAT THREAD AND GOOD DISCUSSIONS! Thank you Robbie.

Not sure where you get this he didn't want to learn pass patterns from. Not attacking you for this, just curious.

If this is from the team it reminds me of the scoop I heard from a guest coach of another CFL when they released their famous kicker at TC. I asked one of their guest coaches why he was cut. It seemed odd to do that at TC. He said he was a guest coach and they keep that stuff in the "family" and he is not family. But he had been told the great kicker had some major problems with his planting leg/foot or something. That is all he knew. Then I met the now former kicker about two months later and asked how his plant leg was. He jumped on that by saying: 'Oh that is what they are saying to justify cutting me. I hadn't heard that.' He knew I had spoken at the time he was cut to that former guest coach as all 3 of us were a few months later at the same event where the kicker was being honored and that guest coach was bestowing the award.

To me Smith's performance at the time was not a problem. Hey, they don't have Logan now. Maybe he saw how loyal the Lions aren't to their RB and decided he'd be toast soon enough so may as well go on his own terms and take the risk of making the NFL.

Maybe this game might have been different with Joe Smith in there. No one knows- certainly not me - but for my money Joe was money when the Lions needed yards. Just cleaning out the inbox and found this article sent last season by Mightybuck to me.

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news ... dc0ae0e35b
"Wally Buono had no surprise revelations. Nothing the head coach had to say would shed any light on what was obvious to anyone who watched the game. The Lions did everything but win, is how it looked. But it wasn’t that simple.

They did everything but block Calgary’s Mike Labinjo at the goal-line and keep him from spoiling two attempts to run the ball in from the one. Everything but hold onto the pigskin when backup QB Jarious Jackson was trying to carry it in from the three."


As K&D43ver says, it didn't have to be either/or thinking with Smith - Logan, it could have been two distinctly different runners. With Smith and Logan in the backfield in short yardage in scoring territory with the right mix of plays, they'd have to defend a QB sneak, a power run from Smith, or a run by Logan or a pass. Too many times the Lions are sucking in short yardage and this change of QB with mostly same old leaves defences too much time to prepare and know what is coming.

As far as Smith and passing, let's face it. WB would never have given Logan a look at receiver but in the NFL they are looking at that too. Not sure if that is the best position given size but I see their logic.


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Rammer
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That came from the coaches at practice last season, Smith didn't put in the extra time to learn the pass routes.


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Toppy Vann wrote:
Robbie wrote:
Robbie wrote:Lions trade Joe Smith for Charles Roberts. :cr:

I guess in a year from now, we can find out whether it was a good trade 8) or a bad trade. :x
For this trade, I'd call it a draw as both traded players were soon released by their new teams after the end of the season.
I think this has to be the worst trade next to the giveaway to get Matt Dunigan. I don't think it can be evaluated in terms of both players not playing now as it was a trade that was no good for fans or the individuals.
Sure you can evaluate it that way! It's a pretty standard way of looking at a trade. Wins after the trade also matter, and the Lions record was pretty good after that trade if I recall. I totally understand how as a fan you don't like the trade, I don't agree, but I see where you are coming from.

So trades are subjective. That said, most commonly trades are evaluated in terms of wins, resulting championships, and mostly the resulting depth of talent. The Dunnigan trade was bad because we clearly had less talent overall, and it hurt us in the long run - that can be measured and is hard to argue.

The Smith-Roberts trade today has no effect on the team, no negative legacy or debt. You may think we could have been better going a different way, but that's just a hunch. Sort of like when my friends from Quebec curse the 94 MLB season, because the Expos were going to win the World Series before the strike happened - but it's just a hunch, and too many variables to make such a statement.

Post trade the Leos did better in terms of wins and losses than before, they didn't win the Cup (but six other teams didn't either), and talent depth was a wash.

I rate the trade: neutral.


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Hambone
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bclions16 wrote:So trades are subjective. That said, most commonly trades are evaluated in terms of wins, resulting championships, and mostly the resulting depth of talent. The Dunnigan trade was bad because we clearly had less talent overall, and it hurt us in the long run - that can be measured and is hard to argue.

The Smith-Roberts trade today has no effect on the team, no negative legacy or debt. You may think we could have been better going a different way, but that's just a hunch. Sort of like when my friends from Quebec curse the 94 MLB season, because the Expos were going to win the World Series before the strike happened - but it's just a hunch, and too many variables to make such a statement.

Post trade the Leos did better in terms of wins and losses than before, they didn't win the Cup (but six other teams didn't either), and talent depth was a wash.

I rate the trade: neutral.
It's debatable if the trade was a catalyst for either team for the remainder of the season or not. Neither player really played what I would call a significant role with their new team. Roberts mostly played 2nd fiddle to Logan and Smith likewise to Reid. Nobody can deny that both team's records and performance improved significantly post-trade. BC was 4-5 prior to and 7-2 after the deal. Similarly the Bombers were 2-7 before the deal and 6-3 afterwards. Perhaps this is one of those strange deals that turned into a win-win for both thanks more to addition by subtraction of the departed as opposed to upgrading a position for filling a need. Toppy I think is forever entrenched in his stance on this one though. ;-)


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Robbie
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Toppy Vann wrote:GREAT THREAD AND GOOD DISCUSSIONS! Thank you Robbie.
:whs:
You are very welcome, Toppy Vann! :roar: Unlike some other posters, you appreciate me reviving older threads.
KnowItAll wrote:my vote for worst was trading half of the teams best talent for MD. Its the reason why Joe Galat is my most hated name in all of sport. I still see red whenever I think of that trade.
Toppy Vann wrote:I think this has to be the worst trade next to the giveaway to get Matt Dunigan. I don't think it can be evaluated in terms of both players not playing now as it was a trade that was no good for fans or the individuals.
Hey KIA and TV, I have a couple of questions about this. In my very first posting for this topic, I said that I felt it was a bad trade. However, what are your thoughts on:

#1.
What did you think about the trade after the 1988 season? Dunigan brought a lot of excitement to the team over the rather boring offence led by Dewalt, and the became hot towards the end of the season to appear in the Grey Cup.

#2.
Were you confused over the fact that what was supposed to be a 3 for 1 trade, turned out to be a 6 for 1 trade? In the 1989 season, the Lions still had a fairly good offence, but had a terrible defence after they gave up Stuman, Braswell, and Francis to the Eskimos.

#3.
If YOU were Joe Galat, what would you have done to the team for its quarterbacking situation at the start of the 1988 season? Roy Dewalt was aging and was not re-signed because of the competition cap, and Condredge Holloway retired.

#4.
Do you think the trade before the 1990 season that sent Dunigan to Toronto for six players was just as bad? For Dunigan, the Lions received Rick Johnson, Pless, Baylis, Visco, Tolbert, and Wiseman. However, aside from Willie Pless, the five other players were totally ineffective. The Lions continued to have a terrible defence, and Paopao was aging and Flutie didn't prove himself yet, so the team had a terrible offence as well.
Toppy Vann wrote:Oh and Joe Galat was the only guy ever to make 25 year Lion Lui Passaglia want to move to another team.
Well, I don't think Joe Galat was trying to make Lui Passaglia MOVE to another team as he didn't really try to trade him. At the start of the 1988 CFL season with competition cap, several veteran players couldn't be resigned, including Roy Dewalt and Lui Passaglia. Galat felt that Tony Martino could carry out the kicking duties, so Passaglia was released. Passaglia went for a tryout for the Cleveland Browns but was cut, by which team Galat realized that Martino couldn't fill the shoes of Lui, so he was ultimately re-signed.
bclions16 wrote:The Smith-Roberts trade today has no effect on the team, no negative legacy or debt.
I rate the trade: neutral.
Agreed. :roll:


祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你老鼠年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Toppy Vann wrote:
OV - 54:40 wrote:
Robbie wrote:In the middle of the 1985 season, Jacques Chapdelaine left the Lions to go to the Montreal Concordes. Does anybody know if he was released and then signed by Montreal, or was he traded to the Alouettes? If he was traded to the Alouettes, then who did the Lions receive in return and was it considered a good or bad trade?
Chapdelaine was traded in July 85 to the Als for a 3rd round draft pick in 86 (turned out to be LB Ron Crick - who i don't think ever played for the Lions).
I still thought the Lions got the best out of that deal.

:rotf:

Too bad it just couldn't last. :bang:


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Toppy Vann
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Robbie.. will get back to this later. Off to work now.

Great questions and as to reviving old threads or old history I think it really adds value to the quality of this site. If you don't like the topic, you read or comment on other things.

Where I took issue with Joe Galat (and I have an old anti-Joe sticker somewhere at home I think) is that Lui was irreplaceable for his added ability to gamble successfully on third down and do a short term kick off that actually your team gets.

Dunnigan was great but the cost was too high and the later loss of those defensive players made that trade a bad despite Matt being great and that is inarguable.


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Robbie
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Toppy Vann wrote:Great questions and as to reviving old threads or old history I think it really adds value to the quality of this site. If you don't like the topic, you read or comment on other things.
:whs: :whs:
Double thanks!

I guess some people don't like it when I revive older threads because they get confused when they think it's a new thread. But others like you appreciate it so I will continue to reply to older threads sometimes. And to continue your last sentence, Derek added a feature that lists when the thread was created - hopefully this will allow readers to find out more easily when a topic was first created.
Robbie.. will get back to this later. Off to work now.

Where I took issue with Joe Galat (and I have an old anti-Joe sticker somewhere at home I think) is that Lui was irreplaceable for his added ability to gamble successfully on third down and do a short term kick off that actually your team gets.

Dunnigan was great but the cost was too high and the later loss of those defensive players made that trade a bad despite Matt being great and that is inarguable.
I await your responses.


祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你老鼠年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Robbie wrote: Hey KIA and TV, I have a couple of questions about this. In my very first posting for this topic, I said that I felt it was a bad trade. However, what are your thoughts on:

#1.
What did you think about the trade after the 1988 season? Dunigan brought a lot of excitement to the team over the rather boring offence led by Dewalt, and the became hot towards the end of the season to appear in the Grey Cup.

I was happy to get a QB of MDs quality, but Sandusky, Stumon, and Francis were favorites of mine, and I thought those 3 alone were worth more than MD. I also liked Taylor a lot. So, What I thought after the 88 season is exactly what I think now. Galat practically destroyed the lions, on and off the field.
Robbie wrote:
#2.
Were you confused over the fact that what was supposed to be a 3 for 1 trade, turned out to be a 6 for 1 trade? In the 1989 season, the Lions still had a fairly good offence, but had a terrible defence after they gave up Stuman, Braswell, and Francis to the Eskimos.
I was too busy being pissed at Galat over the "3 for 1" that I had no time to be confused about the 6 for 1.
Robbie wrote:
#3.
If YOU were Joe Galat, what would you have done to the team for its quarterbacking situation at the start of the 1988 season? Roy Dewalt was aging and was not re-signed because of the competition cap, and Condredge Holloway retired.
- I would not have traded anyone of quality, specially fan favs like sandusky.
- I would have tried to find fresh young talent and/or went with the Qbs they still had.
- Having a good defense, I might have tried to trade a lot less talent for a more average QB, although I cant remember who all was in the league at the time.
Robbie wrote:
#4.
Do you think the trade before the 1990 season that sent Dunigan to Toronto for six players was just as bad? For Dunigan, the Lions received Rick Johnson, Pless, Baylis, Visco, Tolbert, and Wiseman. However, aside from Willie Pless, the five other players were totally ineffective. The Lions continued to have a terrible defence, and Paopao was aging and Flutie didn't prove himself yet, so the team had a terrible offence as well.
I think after Paopao retired to coach and then ended up playing again, he was doing well before he got injured. I don't think it was bad to go with him. Pless was worth a lot, and I think Tolbert was good enough for awhile. OTOH, if the lions had kept MD, we might not have seen Flutie in the CFL. Scary thought.


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