Past BC Lions TRADES - Evaluate and Discuss - Good or Bad? (11 years later)

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Robbie
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For my 3,500th post, I figured that I will bring up an interesting topic that was also my first posting when I joined this forum about 2.5 years ago. With many new members having joined this forum since then, I think this topic will be a good subject of conversation. With the NHL and NBA trade deadlines recently passed and sportswriters now analyzing the impact that the trades may have on all teams, I'd like to hear your thoughts on past trades that the BC Lions have made.

Compared to other sports leagues such as the NHL, NBA, and MLB, it seems like trades do not happen too often in the CFL and when they do occur, they don?t seem to generate too much publicity. When trades occur in the other sports leagues, there is usually so much media attention and the biggest trades are easily remembered for years to come. Many newspapers and sports magazine editorials are about fans ranting off their reaction to a trade. And at least once a year around the trade deadline, sportswriters reminisce and evaluate past trades a certain team has made by evaluating how well the trade was in retrospect. In the case of the Canucks, everyone knows and will agree that Markus Naslund for Alek Stojanov could be the best trade the team has made in their franchise history, while Barry Pederson for Cam Neely and Glen Wesley is the worst trade the team has ever made. It?s easy to find newspaper articles, web pages, and message boards that discuss past Canucks trades, but I have never seen any articles or much discussion about past BC Lions trades, so let?s do that now.

Of course, what can be considered a good trade or a bad trade is rather subjective in some cases. I think we can all agree that a trade that produces a superstar who serves his team well for many years is definitely a good trade. Such trades can be defined as good long-term investments. On the other hand, a traded player who doesn?t perform up to par and is soon released from the team is definitely a bad trade. But what can be subjective and debatable is a player who serves a team very well for only a short amount of time, but then leaves through retirement, free agency, or another trade. There are times when a team trades for such a short-term investment player when they think it will be a missing link to a championship. But I think overall, fans tend to remember traded long-term players much better than short-term players. And analysts often look at which team benefited more from the players they received in the transaction to see which side got the better deal and thus, ?won? the trade.

I believe the reasons are twofold as to why trades don?t generate too much media attention in the CFL:

#1.
Most players change teams through free agency in the CFL and not through trades. So compared to other leagues, trades are not as frequent in the CFL.

#2.
Most trades in the CFL occur during the off-season. This is unlike other leagues where there is usually a flurry of trades by the trade deadline towards the end of the regular season as teams try to patch up their weak spots in preparation for the playoffs. This flurry of trades gives sportswriters an opportunity to produce lots of stories analyzing and predicting the effects of those trades. In the CFL, there may be a bunch of free agent signings in the second half of the regular season as teams sign players that were cut by the NFL, but not so many trades.

Having said that, trades still do occur in the CFL and let?s discuss that now. From your recollection, what are some good and bad trades the Lions have made in their franchise history? Were there any trades that, when they were announced, really shocked or excited you as you thought the trade was so lopsided, either good or bad? And in hindsight, were you justified in your reaction if the trade turned out to be a big steal or a big disappointment?

For the sake of keeping this thread on topic, I ask that you please respect these two guidelines:

#1.
Let's stick with TRADES only and nothing else, including free agency. So there is no need to say that losing Doug Flutie was a bad thing because he left the team as a free agent and not through a trade.

#2.
Please stick with trades involving the BC LIONS only. If you want to discuss Canucks or other sports league trades, then create your own thread for it.

I will begin this thread by chronologically listing 14 historical BC Lions trades that I remember. After analyzing them, I consider that half of them were good trades and the other seven were bad trades and I will group them as such. I will provide a detailed description of the trade and explain why I felt it was a good or bad trade. In some cases, I do not remember all the players involved, but can still conclude whether the trade was good or bad. And in some cases, the trades involved draft picks, but the format that I will use will be: (player ultimately received by Lions) for (player ultimately received by the other team).

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:yes: :wink: :thup: GOOD HISTORICAL BC LIONS TRADES :rockin: :beer: :beauty: :)

#1: Kapp for four players :rockin:
In September 1961, BC sent four players to Calgary in exchange for QB Joe Kapp. Joe Kapp quarterbacked the Lions to their first Grey Cup appearance in 1963 and their first Grey Cup win in 1964 on his way to a Hall of Fame career. Enough said.

#2: Young for Symons and Fouts :beer:
In 1967, the Lions traded Dick Fouts and Bill Symons to the Toronto Argonauts in exchange for the rights to Jim Young. This was a mutually good trade for both teams as both Symons and Young eventually became all-stars with their new teams and were both inducted into the CFL Hall of Fame. And the Lions got Fouts back a year later. Jim Young was a great long-term investment for the Lions as he played for them throughout his entire long 13-year CFL career, 197 games from 1967 to 1979.

#3: James "Quick" Parker for Laurent Deslauriers and Frank Blakovec :beauty:
Before the start of the 1984 season, the Lions dealt with the Eskimos for James "Quick" Parker. Parker instantly became an all-star and fan favourite in BC while winning the Most Outstanding Defensive Player Award in both 1984 and 1986 and being instrumental in their 1985 Grey Cup win.

#4: Austin for Barrett :yes:
Before the start of the 1994 season, the BC engaged in a three way trade with Saskatchewan and Ottawa that saw the Lions send Danny Barrett to the eastern Rough Riders, Ottawa send Tom Burgess back to the western Roughriders, and Saskatchewan send Kent Austin to BC. Kent Austin served the Lions much better than Danny Barrett did, leading them to a decent 1994 season and with help from Danny McManus, captured the Grey Cup.

#5: Chronopoulos, Stewart, and Snipes for (Unknown) :)
Also in 1994, the Lions dealt with the Ottawa Roughriders for offensive guard Denny Chronopoulos, defensive lineman Andrew Stewart, and linebacker Angelo Snipes - all key components to the 1994 Grey Cup win.

#6: Millington for Armstrong and Beaudoin 8)
On March 14, 2000, Sean Millington returned to the Lions in exchange for linebacker Antonio Armstrong, offensive lineman Matthew Beaudoin and a fifth round 2000 draft pick. Millington always served the Lions well and upon his return, he won 2000 Most Outstanding Canadian and also helped the Lions win the 2000 Grey Cup with his Most Valuable Canadian performance.

#7: Reid for Belli :thup:
In July 2001, the Lions receive Angus Reid along with a 5th round pick from Montreal in exchange for Adriano Belli. Reid served for the Lions fairly well, being in the starting lineup in the 2006 Grey Cup. He served for the Lions longer than Belli for the Alouettes who left for the Tiger-Cats in 2004 before returning to them in 2006 but was recently signed as a free agent by Toronto.

Of these seven good trades, by far the best long-term investment was Jim Young. But unfortunately and ironically, that was also the only trade that didn?t produce a Grey Cup during the traded player?s time with the team. The other trades, while significantly shorter-term investments, did at least produce a missing link to a championship team.


:? :sigh: :oops: BAD HISTORICAL BC LIONS TRADES :shock: :bang: :thdn:

#1: Martino for Clash :?
Before the start of the 1987 season, the Lions traded good defensive back and fan favourite Darnell Clash to the Toronto Argonauts in exchange for their first round draft pick in 1988, who turned out to be ineffective Tony Martino. Clash was very exciting as a kick returner. Martino was no replace for Passaglia, who went to try out for the Cleveland Browns amid a contract dispute. Martino struggled big time and the Lions had to bring in help in the form of two other kickers, Bernie Ruoff and Roy Kurtz. Eventually, all three kickers were released when Passaglia returned to the Lions midway through the 1988 season.

#2: Dunigan for Sandusky, Stumon, Francis, Braswell, Taylor, and Blugh :bang:
In June 1988, the Lions traded with the Edmonton Eskimos for Matt Dunigan. While Dunigan served the Lions well, leading them to a Grey Cup appearance in 1988, the Lions gave up too much for him and the trade was so poorly negotiated. What was supposed to be only a 3 for 1 trade turned out to be a 6 for 1 trade. After receiving Jim Sandusky in 1988, the Eskimos then received Gregg Stumon, Andre Francis, Jeff Braswell, Reggie Taylor, and BC's 1989 first-round draft choice, Leroy Blugh in 1989. Having lost the core of their good defensive players, the Lions had a horrific 7-11 season in 1989 while the Eskimos had a banner 16-2 season.

#3: (Unknown) for Crawford :sigh:
Three games into the 1989 season, the Lions traded another longtime fan favourite, Larry Crawford, to the Toronto Argonauts for future considerations. I do not remember whom the Lions eventually received in return, but whoever it was clearly did not become a favourite like Crawford.

#4: Johnson, Pless, Baylis, Visco, Tolbert, and Wiseman for Dunigan :x
On March 20, 1990, the Toronto Argonauts sent quarterback Rick Johnson, linebacker Willie Pless, defensive tackle Jearld Baylis, linebacker Tony Visco, slotback Emmanuel Tolbert and safety Todd Wiseman to BC for Lions' quarterback Matt Dunigan. Matt Dunigan went on to two great seasons with the Argos, leading them to a very explosive offence in 1990 and a Grey Cup in 1991. But unlike the Eskimos with the six players that they received for Dunigan, the Lions could not capitalize at all with the six players they received for Dunigan. Rick Johnson retired shortly after the trade and the Lions didn't really need another quarterback as they already had at least four eligible QB's at training camp, While Todd Wiseman played for the Lions in 1987-88, he never played a single game for the Lions in 1990 as he was released. Emmanual Tolbert had minimal impact for the team as he played only 7 games before being released, as was Tony Visco after 12 games. Jearld Baylis didn't play in 1990 either and provided minimal contributions in 7 games that he played in 1991. As a result, the Lions had another horrific 6-11-1 season in 1990. The only player who had a positive effect was Willie Pless, who played in all 18 games in 1990 and was selected as an all-star. Unfortunately, the Lions immediately lost Pless after that season a free agent to the Eskimos, where he went on to have several all-star years and won many defensive player of the year awards.

#5: Barrett for Romano and Crysdale :no:
In the spring of 1992, the Lions traded offensive guard Rocco Romano and fellow offensive lineman Jamie Crysdale to the Calgary Stampeders in exchange for quarterback Danny Barrett. Romano went on to have several all-star seasons with Calgary and was recently inducted into the CFL Hall of Fame while Crysdale had many solid seasons too. But Barrett was very ineffective as the Lions new starting QB as he was no replacement for Flutie and was often booed on the field so he lasted only two years. Of course, I know that the Lions were looking for a new starting QB after Flutie was lost as a free agent to Calgary and Barrett had then become expendable with the Stampeders. But in my opinion, I felt that the Lions should have made a bigger effort to re-sign Matt Dunigan, who had just become a free agent after leading the Argos to the 1991 Grey Cup. Instead, the Winnipeg Blue Bombers managed to sign Dunigan, where he led them to two straight Grey Cup appearances in 1992 and 1993.

#6: Perez for Jones :shock:
Of the seven that I?ve listed, this one will likely be the most debatable as to whether it could be considered a bad trade. I listed this as a bad trade because it was only a short-term investment for the Lions. On February 28, 2000 the Lions traded their backup QB Khari Jones to the Winnipeg Blue Bombers in exhcnage for offensive tackle Chris Perez. While Perez served the Lions well with his all-star performance in 2000, providing good blocking and protection for Allen while playing all 18 games and was a vital part in their Grey Cup win, he was lost immediately after that season. Unlike Romano and Crysdale for Calgary, Perez didn?t serve as a long-term outstanding lineman for the Lions. Khari Jones went on to become Most Outstanding Player in 2001 while guiding the Blue Bombers to a Grey Cup appearance, and in 2002 he helped Milt Stegall win Most Outstanding Player and easily demolished the Lions in the WDSF. So long-term wise, it was a better deal for Winnipeg.

#7: McKay-Loescher and Pierre-Louis for Allen :thdn:
Perhaps this will be the next most debatable as to whether it constitutes a bad trade. On June 7, 2003, the Lions sent pro football's all-time leading passer Damon Allen to the Toronto Argos in exchange for a 2nd round draft pick (DE Nautyn McKay-Loescher) in the 2004 CFL College Draft and a 3rd round pick (LB Patrick Pierre-Louis) in the 2005 CFL College Draft. Allen went on to help the Argos beat the Lions in the 2004 Grey Cup with his MVP performance, and also won 2005 Most Outstanding Player while McKay-Loescher and Pierre-Louis have been slow to develop for the Lions. And McKay-Loescher was just lost a few days ago as a free agent to Hamilton. So unless he returns to the team sometime, it is unlikely he will become a superstar for the Lions like the superstar that was traded away for him.

Of these seven bad trades, none of them turned out to be a good, long-term investment for the Lions. The only one that led to directly to a championship was the Perez for Khari trade so that is why I said it was the most debatable but like the others, it was only a short-term investment. In at least five of the cases, it seemed like the other team benefited much better and longer and thus, it is why I consider it a bad trade for the Lions as they didn?t benefit nearly as much from the transaction as the other team.
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So what do you think about my assessments? You are free to agree or disagree with them. Just provide a detailed explanation if you disagree.

Also, if there are any additional past Lions trades that you remember, by all means list them and tell us whether you think they were good or bad trades, and why.
Last edited by Robbie on Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.


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squishy35
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Jan Carinci to BC for Nick Hebler to the Argonauts :thup: : This was a good trade for the Lions.

Carinci had a career year in 86 catching 50 passes and contributed well as an exclusive slotback; a different role than the frequent subbing he did in the run and shoot offence of Bob O'Billovich in Toronto.

Hebler was never the same intense player after the 1985 GC. I think the Lions got the better of the Trade.


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Robbie
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squishy35 wrote:Jan Carinci to BC for Nick Hebler to the Argonauts :thup: : This was a good trade for the Lions.
Agreed, good catch, squishy35! I actually didn't know that Jan Carinci arrived in BC by way of a trade. This was definitely a good trade for the Lions and it benefited them much more than the Argonauts.

By 1986, Nick Hebeler was toward the end of his career and I believe he retired shortly after the trade. Jan Carinci on the other hand, served the Lions well for seasons. He was very solid and reliable down the middle.

My five strongest memories of Jan Carinci are:

1. As the opponent in the 1983 Grey Cup, he caught a second quarter 14-yard TD pass from Condredge Holloway to temporarily tie the game at 7-7.

2. On September 19, 1986 home game against the Eskimos, Carinci was involved in one of the scariest plays in football history that silenced the crowd. Catching a pass down the middle from Dewalt, Carinci was hit simultaneously from both sides by two Eskimo defenders. One of them, James Bell, suffered a neck injury and ended up as a paraplegic.

3. In the 1988 Grey Cup, Carinci caught 4 passes for 59 yards. Since he was reliable down the middle, Dunigan elected to go him for the possible game winning TD in that fateful pass attempt late in the game.

4. In a game in the 1989 season when the Lions were beset by injuries, Carinci was asked to play on both offence and defence. In doing so, he recorded two offensive touchdowns and two interceptions on defence.

5. He was the holder on Lui Passaglia's convert attempt in August 1990 when Passaglia passed Dave Cutler on CFL's all-time scoring list.

Unfortunately, two thumb injuries limited Carinci to just 8 games in the 1990 season and he retired when Bob O'Billovich informed him that he was not in the plans for 1991.

Here is a very detailed biography on Jan Carinci:

http://www.argonauts.ca/Argos/History/A ... 04732.html


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I really enjoyed the hard nosed play of Jan Carinci, a trade that the Lions stole. Remember Carinci also did KO's for the Lions, practically was good at whatever was asked of him, my kind of player with heart.


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This is off-topic, but I was amused to note this particular sentence from that link:
During his senior year Jan was visited by Argonaut assistant coach Oscar Goldman.
Oscar Goldman was the name of Steve Austin's boss on The Six Million Dollar Man. He probably got a few jokes about his name when that series was fresh. Also, on the most recent season of Trailer Park Boys, Bubbles took Oscar Goldman for the name of one of his cats.


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Robbie
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In the middle of the 1985 season, Jacques Chapdelaine left the Lions to go to the Montreal Concordes. Does anybody know if he was released and then signed by Montreal, or was he traded to the Alouettes? If he was traded to the Alouettes, then who did the Lions receive in return and was it considered a good or bad trade?


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Best Trades

1. Getting Quick Parker to our Leos
2. Jim Young
3. Sean Millington


Worst Trade

Trading Romano and Chrysdale for Barrett


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OV - 54:40
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James Parker was acquired along with a 2nd round draft pick from the Esks for a couple of young NIs - safety Laurent Deslauriers and linebacker Frank Blakovec (Lions' territorial exemption (UBC) and 1st round draft pick respectively in 84) at the start of TC in 84. Parker was a great rush end for the Lions; however - Deslauirers was an instant CFL star - all-Canadian safety for the Esks as a rookie and had 9 INTs in each of his first 2 CFL seasons; Balkovec was a decent player for the Esks too as i recall; not sure who the draft pick from the Esks turned out to be. Parker was a great addition to the Lions and an all-time CFL great for sure - not sure however, that giving up a guy who turned out to be one of the best safeties in the CFL made this such a steal.


OV - 54:40
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Robbie wrote:In the middle of the 1985 season, Jacques Chapdelaine left the Lions to go to the Montreal Concordes. Does anybody know if he was released and then signed by Montreal, or was he traded to the Alouettes? If he was traded to the Alouettes, then who did the Lions receive in return and was it considered a good or bad trade?
Chapdelaine was traded in July 85 to the Als for a 3rd round draft pick in 86 (turned out to be LB Ron Crick - who i don't think ever played for the Lions).


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OV - 54:40 wrote:
Robbie wrote:In the middle of the 1985 season, Jacques Chapdelaine left the Lions to go to the Montreal Concordes. Does anybody know if he was released and then signed by Montreal, or was he traded to the Alouettes? If he was traded to the Alouettes, then who did the Lions receive in return and was it considered a good or bad trade?
Chapdelaine was traded in July 85 to the Als for a 3rd round draft pick in 86 (turned out to be LB Ron Crick - who i don't think ever played for the Lions).
Well Crick never lost us a GC then, one step ahead in that trade. 8) :lol:


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OV - 54:40 wrote:
Robbie wrote:In the middle of the 1985 season, Jacques Chapdelaine left the Lions to go to the Montreal Concordes. Does anybody know if he was released and then signed by Montreal, or was he traded to the Alouettes? If he was traded to the Alouettes, then who did the Lions receive in return and was it considered a good or bad trade?
Chapdelaine was traded in July 85 to the Als for a 3rd round draft pick in 86 (turned out to be LB Ron Crick - who i don't think ever played for the Lions).
I still thought the Lions got the best out of that deal.


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Blitz wrote:Best Trades

1. Getting Quick Parker to our Leos
2. Jim Young
3. Sean Millington

I would agree on James Parker and Jim Young. I'm not as high on Millington as alot of fans. Too many fumbles, drop passes and missed blocks.


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OV - 54:40 wrote:James Parker was acquired along with a 2nd round draft pick from the Esks for a couple of young NIs - safety Laurent Deslauriers and linebacker Frank Blakovec (Lions' territorial exemption (UBC) and 1st round draft pick respectively in 84) at the start of TC in 84. Parker was a great rush end for the Lions; however - Deslauirers was an instant CFL star - all-Canadian safety for the Esks as a rookie and had 9 INTs in each of his first 2 CFL seasons; Balkovec was a decent player for the Esks too as i recall; not sure who the draft pick from the Esks turned out to be. Parker was a great addition to the Lions and an all-time CFL great for sure - not sure however, that giving up a guy who turned out to be one of the best safeties in the CFL made this such a steal.
Really all depends on a team's situation at the time. As the most feared rush-end of his era Parker had an immeasurable impact on the whole BC defence. He twice won the Schenley for Defensive Player of the Year while with BC. Back in 1984 BC was very deep in NI talent particularly on defence with the likes of Hebeler and Klassen on the DL, Jackson and Konar at OLB and Nelson Martin at safety. The key missing piece to what was already a solid defence was a player like Parker. With that sort of depth they could afford to move promising young NI talent. BC would've been a very tough lineup from rookies to crack back then. BC may have had to let Deslauriers and Balkovec go for nothing if they couldn't find a roster spot.

Deslauriers had a terrific start to his career with 18 picks in those first 2 years, 84 & 85. Unfortunately injuries would for all intents kill that early promise. He would play 9 games in 1986 then miss the 1987 season due to injury. He played 17 games for the Argos in 1988 and by the looks of things would be out of the game by 1989. Balkovec hung around for a few years, but never elevated his game beyond special teams and backup LB.

The 2nd rounder from Edmonton turned into UBC DB Bruce Barnett. Barnett would play for all season for BC in 1985 and 10 games in 1986. He was on their reserve list for 1987 and looks to have disappeared after that.

Deslauriers did have some promise. However any chance you have to acquire a proven impact player like Parker for a couple of prospects you have to do it. Keep in mind Parker already had a Schenley on his resume by then and was only 26 and just entering his prime. A no-brainer IMHO.


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Robbie wrote:#3: (Unknown) for Crawford :sigh:
Three games into the 1989 season, the Lions traded another longtime fan favourite, Larry Crawford, to the Toronto Argonauts for future considerations. I do not remember whom the Lions eventually received in return, but whoever it was clearly did not become a favourite like Crawford.


You always hate to see fan favourites go. However at the time I don't think "The Duck" had much left in the tank. He'd only play 4 games for the Argos before being released there. He signed back with BC in the offseason but I don't think ever played for BC again either. Given his Argo career lasted 4 games I doubt the future considerations amounted to much if anything at all.
Robbie wrote:#6: Perez for Jones :shock:
Of the seven that I?ve listed, this one will likely be the most debatable as to whether it could be considered a bad trade. I listed this as a bad trade because it was only a short-term investment for the Lions. On February 28, 2000 the Lions traded their backup QB Khari Jones to the Winnipeg Blue Bombers in exhcnage for offensive tackle Chris Perez.


This was one of those win-win deals. BC gave up an asset in Jones that they really had no use for. Jones wasn't going to get any playing time in BC. Winnipeg wound up with someone who would later on win an MVP award. BC got a very good GC winning season out of Perez for what amounted to a spare part. You can't call that a bad deal even if they only benefitted from Perez' presence for 1 year. Both teams got something they needed badly.


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Robbie wrote:In the middle of the 1985 season, Jacques Chapdelaine left the Lions to go to the Montreal Concordes. Does anybody know if he was released and then signed by Montreal, or was he traded to the Alouettes? If he was traded to the Alouettes, then who did the Lions receive in return and was it considered a good or bad trade?
Chaps was traded to Montreal for a 3rd round draft pick and unknown LB by the name of Ron Crick. He did little with the Concordes so the trade wasn't a factor either way.

BTW... the 1994 deal that brought Snipes, Chronopolous and Stewart to B.C. was for Jim Mills. Turned out to be a great deal for the Lions as Mills would soon after be forced to retire after lingering back problems from a car accident.


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