Zero curiosity in amateur football

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Jim Mullin
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I am truly not sure what this says about Lions fans or the BC football community in general.

But...

We are halfway through the CIS season, two-thirds of the way through the CJFL season and there's even a High School season going on and there is not a single thread on any amateur football topic.

Why is there such a gulf between amateur football and professional football in BC? It's certianly not the case in other communities.
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sj-roc
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jcalhoun wrote:I've watched a bit of CIS ball on Shaw, but only when UBC is playing. I caught several games last year that you were calling, and I enjoyed them. But the production values were painfully bad. I realize that you're trying to make Chicken Salad, as Casey Printers might say, but it's really difficult to get interested in something that is put together so poorly. Add to this the sad fact that UBC is 1-5 this year, and I wonder why I should feel compelled to watch, let alone drive out to UBC to watch them play.
Good luck with that. UBC, much like downtown, is auto non grata turf. I remember someone posted on here several years ago about going out to T-bird Stadium for a game and couldn't find a place where you were allowed to park, so they ended up not being able to attend and wasted a whole afternoon in the process. It doesn't help that the stadium is isolated from the rest of a campus that is itself completely isolated from the rest of the city and the entire Lower Mainland for that matter. This is in stark contrast to a university like, say, Dalhousie where the campus is completely intermingled with the surrounding city and you can't avoid it.

I did my PhD at UBC and in my years there, I never once went to a T-birds game, nor do I know of anyone else who ever did so, with the possible exception of one or two Shrum Bowls (and as you imply, the people who go to Shrum Bowls generally don't go to watch a football game). In fact — and I'll preface this with a caveat that I was admittedly in the Science faculty, where varsity sports probably don't register to the same degree as other parts of campus — I'm pretty sure the 1997 Vanier Cup run is the only time I could ever sense a football presence on campus: they showed the championship victory over the GeeGees at the campus pub. Even then, besides the group I was with, I got the sense that almost everyone else there were friends of the players, i.e., this pub gathering was as much about supporting your friends and going out for a drink as it was about watching a varsity football game.

Your comments about lack of media coverage ring true. I just went to teamradio.ca and put thunderbirds into the search tool on their home page. After getting past all the Seattle Thunderbirds hits, the most recent UBC football article I found was from last December noting the CIS decision to strip UBC of all of its 2011 wins, levy an added fine and put the university on probation for 2012/13 for using an ineligible player. They've played six games since then and nada.
Last edited by sj-roc on Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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In my years at UBC I never attended a Thunderbird game because they were so damn bad. I still follow my alma mater but don't attend the games.
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Jim Mullin
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Keep it coming... This is all very constructive.
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xon100
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Maybe this question doesn't belong here but why is high school football 4 down and junior football is 3 down?

My son plays peewee football and that takes up most of my Sundays. I end up with NFL games that I want to watch PVRed. I don't talk amateur football on a forum like this as I talk about it during practices with some of the other parents. The VMFL does not really promote itself that I know of to get people to come out and watch the games, and they are all free, but 90% or on sundays and most football fans would be watching the NFL.
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Jim Mullin
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jcalhoun wrote:Hey Jim,

I have no real ties to the school anymore, and this isn't Texas. And they play American rules. Why would I care?
So the school and the community haven't kept you engaged. Once the tie is broken it's hard to get someone to care again.
jcalhoun wrote: I also went to SFU. When I was there they didn't play on campus, and couldn't really decide what league they wanted to play in. Are we NAIA? Shall we jump to CIS? Will the NCAA ask us to dance? Shrum Bowl was always fun, but I haven't been hit by (or thrown) an empty whiskey bottle in almost two decades, so those days are behind me. They have reverted to playing US rules, and thankfully play up on the hill. But why I should I care? The standard of play is (or was) very low, SFU rarely posts anything close to a winning record, (they have 20 wins in the last 10 years) and the players that will make the CFL rarely play at the skill positions. It's hard to get excited about a program when the best players, with a bit of luck, will be afforded the chance to become utility guys in the CFL --and here I'm thinking of Brett Anderson & Chris Szarka in particular. Chris Szarka was a stud when he played at SFU, (playing both fullback and linebacker) but he was a dud off the field and got punted after a semester. It's a long time since Orville Lee played. Should I be watching SFU to scout out the next Angus Reid or Obby Khan? Doesn't that strike you as dull?
I think making the discussion relative to professional football misses the point. However, when the institution in question doesn't value the social bonding aspect of football in the fall, then the game isn't an event. When a homecoming game is so poorly rendered that it doesn't reach out to grads, or a frosh game doesn't communicate to residence, then the energy of the campus community isn't present. That, as much as the game on the field, is part of the experience. SFU and UBC have not developed that experience in a cohesive way. When you experience a great university game and atmosphere in this country, it's not because it's more like the CFL or the NCAA. It is a unique football experience. Ask anyone who has attended Queen's, Laval, Montreal, McMaster, Saskatchewan or Western.

In other words, around here they don't create community and they don't reach out to or treat their patrons like customers.

As for playing amateur scout, to each is own. I'm intrigued with how a player develops. I can give you a great example of a talent who few saw light it up here: Shea Emry for UBC. He was ready for the CFL in his senior year, and not just as a journeyman. That being said, I consider myself just as fortunate to have witnessed Nick Mazzoli return two kicks for TD's in front of 8,500 at Thunderbird in a Shrum Bowl for SFU before knee injuries kept him from being a part of the professional memory.
jcalhoun wrote: I also don't know a damn thing about their league, and there is no real coverage anywhere in the MSM. Should I be excited about the Azusa Pacific game or the Dixie State game? These schools are so obscure I didn't even know what states they were in.


Last week I tweeted, "Nine out 10 SFU students don't know what state Dixie State is actually in". I may have been generous. The move to the NCAA was a bad one for the profile of the program in the media and on campus.
jcalhoun wrote: I've watched a bit of CIS ball on Shaw, but only when UBC is playing. I caught several games last year that you were calling, and I enjoyed them. But the production values were painfully bad. I realize that you're trying to make Chicken Salad, as Casey Printers might say, but it's really difficult to get interested in something that is put together so poorly. Add to this the sad fact that UBC is 1-5 this year, and I wonder why I should feel compelled to watch, let alone drive out to UBC to watch them play.


This year we are on HD 303 which make a huge difference for the viewer. I invite you to check out the game there. We run what TSN used to run on their "third game" in up until 2001: six cameras.

The UBC-Saskatchewan and the Regina-Saskatchewan games were far more entertaining than the gritty wins or losses we've witnessed in the CFL.
jcalhoun wrote: It also doesn't help your cause that CIS ball is often at odds with the CFL. But you know that.


The Lions IMHO, are the worst in the league in relating to amateur football since the passing of Bob.
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Jim Mullin
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sj-roc wrote: Good luck with that. UBC, much like downtown, is auto non grata turf. I remember someone posted on here several years ago about going out to T-bird Stadium for a game and couldn't find a place where you were allowed to park, so they ended up not being able to attend and wasted a whole afternoon in the process.
See my passage about treating patrons like customers.
sj-roc wrote: I did my PhD at UBC and in my years there, I never once went to a T-birds game, nor do I know of anyone else who ever did so, with the possible exception of one or two Shrum Bowls (and as you imply, the people who go to Shrum Bowls generally don't go to watch a football game).
I have witnessed success on other campuses who roll up their sleeves and work on courting the student body. Lots of folks like to wear the logoed polo shirt at UBC, but I'm not sure how hard they want to work at it. As for going to watch a football game, that's only part of the reason to go to a university football game.
sj-roc wrote: Your comments about lack of media coverage ring true. I just went to teamradio.ca and put thunderbirds into the search tool on their home page. After getting past all the Seattle Thunderbirds hits, the most recent UBC football article I found was from last December noting the CIS decision to strip UBC of all of its 2011 wins, levy an added fine and put the university on probation for 2012/13 for using an ineligible player. They've played six games since then and nada.
Either you get paid to, or pay to, get played on Team Radio. It is the poorest form of journalism. At least when you hear an informercial on 650 or 980, it is identified as purchased time. Since the universities don't pay for play, they get ignored. Piss poor.
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VICIOUSCIRCLE
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I personally love all forms of Football, I do prefer the Canadian brand!!! I follow CIS, CJFL, BCJFL online. I watch CIS when I can, which sadly isn't often enough, the only issues I have is time and knowing when the games are on. My wife and I have been Lions Seasons ticket holders for 10 years now I believe. I've been going to games for most of my life, I also have coached minor football as well. Football is a growing in Canada especially in BC, it's not part of our community fabric yet, but it will be soon.
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David
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I am VERY interested in university and high school football in BC. I read the entire recap of SFU's game in the Sunday Province (they beat a team from Utah and have a local stud receiver, Lemar Durant, who dominated the high school scene). I've also read about the disasterous season thus far out at UBC. Howard Tsamura provides a great recap of the high school circuit as well. I would say my local amateur football IQ is much higher than most sports fans.

That being said, I haven't been to a game this year at either level. I would say the principle reason for that is I don't know when the games are played. Sure, I can look them up. And I should. But it sure would be easier if someone in the Province or Sun provided a schedule of games (and in the case of high school, the "must see" match-ups for the week and kick-off times).


DH :cool:
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Toppy Vann
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Some good posts and I am familiar with JC's views on SFU and they are hard to argue with.

As an undergrad at SFU the campus ('69-72) was small and the football and basketball teams were very good. Players used to do a lot of the marketing in the cafe, classes, etc and guys then would directly ask their friends: Are you coming to the game tonight or ______? Then they 'd ask people - what they thought of the game. I know a lot of marginal fans didn't like to be embarrassed at that so made a point to go to the games. This player marketing worked as the jocks had a brought spectrum of friends in those days and we did not have the gap that there today.

Lorne Davis, AD and HC of footall and Jon Kootnekoff in basketball were both highly visible and of course got the jocks involved in campus life. We were the Moderates running council and holding Senate seats in those days and got there due to the great coalition that ran from the Christians, International students to the jocks. Lorne would make the who football team vote. Ballot boxes at the gym would have no radical votes. Like the MBAs a complete sweep for us. Jock were very much big on campus and were not the elites in those days. Some of these same guys are friends today and many played in the CFL. But they did not just hang out with jocks. That got people to games.

In those days there was not a lot of resentment at SFU towards jocks -other than some profs. When SFU President Pauline Jewitt wanted to do a review of Athletics (that led to promotion of Recreation for all) it was led by an English Professor - Jerry Zaslove appointed by the Jock VP Admin. George Suart. I was on the board of governors. Pauline thought this English Prof purrfect until she was interviewed by him and found out that he was a freaking closet JOCK who had played sports (basketball I think).

You will not get rah rah pep rallies at campuses but they can do a better job of marketing on campus.

It doesn't help that the media so much focus just on pro hockey and the Lions.

There were times when the Inter High Track Meets at Empire (late 50s/early 60s got over 20,000 out and it was televised live and again on the weekends.)
Last edited by Toppy Vann on Mon Oct 01, 2012 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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sj-roc
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James,

You made a lot of great points in your last post. I'll elaborate on just one of them.
jcalhoun wrote:On top of that, there is a general resentment among the student body towards the athletics department, that is often articulated openly in upper level academic classes. Most students are at best indifferent to SFU's athletics teams, but many are openly hostile. On numerous occasions I've had professors and fellow students remark that we didn't have a copy of some book in the library, but that we had a nice new athletic building/track/etc. A further point of contention was preferential registration: ie: the jocks got to register for classes before everyone else (one normally moves up the pecking order through a combination of total credits & gpa). Finally, many athletes have lower academic requirements to get into the university, and this really pisses off people that had to bust their tail to get into SFU. Obviously there are a lot of bright, academically gifted athletes, but there are many that have no academic right to be there. It's hard to build a fan base when you're players are not liked.
I would say in some cases that this sort of resentment runs even deeper than you convey. Many students who embark on a university career at UBC and SFU are sufficiently bright and academically driven that it's not difficult to imagine them as the sort of "eggheads" who still resent having been bullied/scorned/ostracised/whatever by the more popular high school jocks back in their secondary education days. So it's only natural that they would carry some of this resentment forward to their more athletic peers at the university level, particularly to those whom they regard as receiving unmerited preferential treatment. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the students (and even professors!) you describe above fit into this category.

Then you also have to consider that many universities in this country these days are a breeding ground for the type of anti-establishment leftism that views competitive athletics as just another embodiment of The Man and all the hegemony entailed therein. You know the stereotype: the artsy dreadlocked campus stoners who write editorial screeds in the student newspaper and play hackysack between their history and poli sci classes. Most of this crowd would rather, say, start a bonfire to protest the possible loss of the grassy knoll at UBC than be caught dead at a sporting event that they regard as standing for everything they oppose sociopolitically. Again, this category also probably captures some of the folks you have identified as hostile to campus athletics.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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sj-roc
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Jim Mullin wrote:
sj-roc wrote:[jcalhoun's] comments about lack of media coverage ring true. I just went to teamradio.ca and put thunderbirds into the search tool on their home page. After getting past all the Seattle Thunderbirds hits, the most recent UBC football article I found was from last December noting the CIS decision to strip UBC of all of its 2011 wins, levy an added fine and put the university on probation for 2012/13 for using an ineligible player. They've played six games since then and nada.
Either you get paid to, or pay to, get played on Team Radio. It is the poorest form of journalism. At least when you hear an informercial on 650 or 980, it is identified as purchased time. Since the universities don't pay for play, they get ignored. Piss poor.
That's disappointing to hear, especially considering one of TR's on-air morning hosts is apparently on the T-birds football coaching staff. I listen to him practically every morning and I can't remember even once ever hearing him mentioning anything about that gig (under corporate directive?). In fact, I only learned of his coaching status just this evening from perusing the team's web pages, which was prompted only from the discussion in this thread. This lack of airtime is an odd happenstance considering how much you hear about Farhan Lalji's Hyacks almost every time he makes a TR guest appearance. But I suppose what with FL's additional status as a highly visible TSN personality, it's probably a matter of money changing hands as you indicate.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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Jim Mullin
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This is good to see, even if the kids are getting bumped off the field at halftime for the first time since the 1960's...



Media Advisory (2012/167)
October 2, 2012

Lions hit the field this week in support of amateur football
                  
(Vancouver) The BC Lions Football Club will be on location at several lower mainland community football practices in Vancouver, North Vancouver, Richmond, Coquitlam, Delta, Surrey and Langley this week to lend a hand in support of football at the grassroots level.
 
Tuesday, October 2nd
Town Centre Stadium
Address: 1290 Pipeline Road (Coquitlam)
Time: 6:00 pm
BC Lions: Dean Valli, Glenn Love
 
Tuesday, October 2nd
Vancouver College Secondary School
Address: 5400 Cartier Street (Vancouver)
Time: 6:15 pm
BC Lions: Courtney Taylor, Anthony Stewart
 
Wednesday, October 3rd
McLeod Athletic Park
Address: 58 Avenue & 214 Street (Langley)
Time: 7:00 pm
BC Lions: Marco Iannuzzi, Anton McKenzie
 
Thursday, October 4th
McLeod Athletic Park
Address: 58 Avenue & 214 Street (Langley)
Time: 6:00 pm
BC Lions: Ben Archibald
 
Thursday, October 4th
Carson Graham Secondary School
Address: 2145 Jones Avenue (North Vancouver)
Time: 6:00 pm
BC Lions: Byron Parker, Stu Foord
 
Thursday, October 4th
Bear Creek Park
Address: 13750 - 88th Avenue (Surrey)
Time: 6:00 pm
BC Lions: Mike Reilly, Adam Baboulas
 
Thursday, October 4th
John Oliver Park
Address: corner of Hwy 91 and Hwy 10 (Delta)
Time: 6:00 pm
BC Lions: Adam Bighill, Cauchy Muamba
 
Thursday, October 4th
Steveston London
Address: 6600 Williams Road (Richmond)
Time: 6:00 pm
BC Lions: Ryan Phillips, Jesse Newman
 
Thursday, October 4th
Cloverdale Athletic Park
Address: 6410 - 168 Street (Surrey)
Time: 6:00 pm
BC Lions: Kierrie Johnson, J.R. LaRose
 
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