Harris Won't Be Back...Pretty Much Official

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Lionsfan65
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B.C.FAN wrote:
Hambone wrote:
maxlion wrote:I disagree that this is all about Wally reacting to Harris' media outbursts, though I agree that it is a factor. The bigger factor is the cost/benefit analysis relative to on field performance.

The difference between Harris' contract demands (200,000?), and what we would pay a decent international (100,000?) is much greater than it would be for a starting db, safety, ol, etc.. It's a lot of money for the passport factor. Also, Harris' performance as a rusher is average, definitely below the top rushers over the past few seasons, ol struggles notwithstanding. His pass catching ability is above average, but he complains to the media when put in a blocking or supporting role. He's not over the hill yet, but has carried the ball a lot over his career, and may be more susceptible to injury. In addition, without a viable backup national rb, any injury causes ripples throughout the team. It's not as simple as just subbing in a backup with a small dropoff in performance. The whole structure of the team needs to be rethought.

Add in Harris' negotiating in the media, publically criticising coaches, and me-first goals, and Wally's decision becomes very understandable.
That's my thinking too. This is all about the economics of working in a cap system, determining the role of the player and how that and the money fit. You have to get full value from the salary. I don't know how accurate the $200K demand rumour is but that sort of money for a tailback is only justifiable if the offence is going to be built around that player. After watching Jennings last year and seeing his strengths and the style of game he plays I don't see the role of the running back being the focal point of the offence. To me if the tailback is going to be the focal point that means he's getting 15+ carries per game plus another 3 or 4 receptions out of the backfield. I don't think Harris has that sort of durability. He does well when he gets the ball in space but struggles when being asked to go between the tackles to get the really tough yards when the defence knows that's what's needed. Guys like Cornish, Sheets and Pringle seemed to be able to power through when a hole isn't there. Harris not so much.

I don't see Harris as being able to provide the sort of value that is absolutely necessary to pay in the $180K-$200K range Two very basic factors (in my opinion) jump out at me. 1) At this stage of his career (29 this year, 30 in 2017) Harris is not the sort of physical beast runner to excel as the offensive focal point over an 18 game schedule. 2) With Jennings at the helm this offence is going to change to be less reliant on a tailback to carry the team. From the combination of the two I'm saying Harris wouldn't deliver the sort of value that salary would command partly because I don't think he's the type of runner to do it and partly because I think the offensive scheme won't put him in the position to do it.
I agree too. I would have no problem with paying Harris $200,000 to $220,000 a year. Manny Arceneaux is in that range. I just think other teams are more willing to pay Harris what he's worth. Harris was the focal point of the offence in the past with Lulay at QB. Arceneaux is the focus now with Jennings at QB. A cheaper international RB who can pick up tough yards inside and help protect the QB is more in line with the Lions' needs in 2016. Ideally, some of Harris's salary can be redirected to Chris Rainey as a kick returner and backup RB who can get into space and make people miss.
The production from Andrew Harris can easily be replaced. 4.7 yards per carry really isn't that great. Harris was at his best in open space on the outside, he is not a pounding type back that can get the tough yards up the middle such as Jerome Messam.

Say what you want about Wally, but he has always been able to find a decent running back who can get the job done.
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jcalhoun
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Hey all,

I was just reading the Andrew Harris thread over on the green forum, and the subject of needing a good NI backup in case he got injured quickly came up. That's been received wisdom for some time in the CFL --and it got me thinking, is this a problem?

Canadian skill position players like Harris, Cornish, etc. are a benefit to the league. Local boys who made the big time, athletes who kids can look up to and teams can use for marketing. Much as I love linemen, they're a much less glamorous group than running backs and receivers.

I know there isn't a lot of untapped Canadian talent at the skill positions, but do you think GMs shy away from Canadians in case they get injured? If that's the case, would it be a good idea to change the NI rule to allow more flexibility in the case of an injury?

So say Harris is your starting tailback and goes down with a sprained ankle. Would it be a bad idea for the league to say: okay, you started a Canadian and he got injured. Your team can play the rest of the game without the requisite number of Canadian players on the field; ie, you allow an American backup to finish the game as if he were a Canadian. You could even extend it to the following game, which would give teams some flexibility, and thus remove the perceived downside of starting a Canadian in a skill position.

I suppose this could also lend itself to abuse. A team could theoretically start four Canadian receivers and two running backs and have them all suffer horrific turf toe injuries on the first play. But I don't think that would happen.

Anyway, it's February and camp is a long way off. I just got to thinking about Harris and what remains of his career. If he's past it, that's just the cruel world of pro sports, but I'd hate to think a team wouldn't sign him because his nationality poses a risk in the case of injury.

Cheers,

James
Blitz
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Hey all,

I was just reading the Andrew Harris thread over on the green forum, and the subject of needing a good NI backup in case he got injured quickly came up. That's been received wisdom for some time in the CFL --and it got me thinking, is this a problem? jcalhoun
Its interesting that having a National tailback is being seen as an issue. For a number of seasons all I've read is that its a big advantage....certainly seemed so in Calgary with Cornish and Messam has been signed by a number of teams, in part, because of his National status as well as being a talent.

With Harris gone, it will likely mean that we have to start another National offensive lineman in place of an import or another National receiver in place of an import. That is more of an issue than the backup tailback position. If we decide to go with Steward at left tackle, that is an issue, in terms of a backup. If we decide to go with another National receiver, that impacts our passing attack.

So, if we go with an import tailback, it creates different issues and perhaps more serious ones.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
Blitz
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Hey all,

I was just reading the Andrew Harris thread over on the green forum, and the subject of needing a good NI backup in case he got injured quickly came up. That's been received wisdom for some time in the CFL --and it got me thinking, is this a problem? jcalhoun
Its interesting that having a National tailback is being seen as an issue. For a number of seasons all I've read is that its a big advantage....certainly seemed so in Calgary with Cornish and Messam has been signed by a number of teams, in part, because of his National status as well as being a talent.

With Harris gone, it will likely mean that we have to start another National offensive lineman in place of an import or another National receiver in place of an import. That is more of an issue than the backup tailback position. If we decide to go with Steward at left tackle, that is an issue, in terms of a backup. If we decide to go with another National receiver, that impacts our passing attack.

So, if we go with an import tailback, it creates different issues and perhaps more serious ones.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
green road kill
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By reading some of the posts it is easy to tell that ,some of you don't like Wally.
But come on now people,some of the conspiracy theory stuff is right out of area 51.
Steel Tedfords glory, put on a white hat and ride in as the savior.Even for me thats
a little bit on the Whoa side(do do dodo dodo). Strange after what was written about him last year. I never thought I'd hear anybody say anything good about Jeff
Tedford.
It's one thing to be upset about Harris and if you want to go after the GM COACH go
a head.But lets keep it in the realm of reality.
I was a fan of Andrews too, and he was one of my favorite players. But if the truth
be told,Andrew had a lot to do with why he's not a lion any more.
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CardiacKid
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So I just might have to eat my words and retract my vent/rant about the manner in which Harris left the Lions....maybe.

Wally's statement earlier this week went "At this point, I’m not saying we’re going to make him an offer. I don’t believe that we will." The way I interpreted that was no offer had been tabled...period. None in the past and definitely none upcoming. What I perceived to be complete inactivity on the part of Wally was frustrating to say the least.

Well, the Lion's website in the news section now has an article written by Jamie Cartmell entitled "FREE AGENCY: WHERE SOMETIMES THE BEST FISH ARE IN YOUR OWN POND". In it, and I quote, Wally states "we did offer (Harris) a new contract during the season. It was a lucrative proposal which would have made him the highest paid running back in the CFL and it was not accepted."

So what is to be believed? Did Wally make a serious effort to keep Harris in the fold? Did Harris reject it out of frustration with the overall offensive struggles of the Leos? Or did he think he could make even bigger money than what was on the table?

I don't think Wally is making this up but I do find the timing of the article interesting....a rebuttal to the complaints of fans such as myself? I do wonder why his statement to the media earlier this week made no allusion to the earlier offer during the season? By not mentioning it, he left himself open to significant criticism.

The article touches on more than just the Harris situation. http://www.bclions.com/2016/02/04/free- ... -own-pond/
JohnnyMusso
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It says they are talking to Chris Rainey and hopeful a deal gets done before Feb 9th. I hope that is the case. He was a great returner for us last year.

It also says the Lions will be active, so who will they sign on Tuesday?
TheLionKing
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JohnnyMusso wrote:
It also says the Lions will be active, so who will they sign on Tuesday?
I'll believe it when I see it. We were promised an aggressive defence by Benevides and Tedford. Anybody seen it ?
leo4life
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Washington said he wants to attack the qb and get turnovers.Heard that the last few seasons and shown the deep zone prevent nothing D
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WestCoastJoe
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leo4life wrote:Washington said he wants to attack the qb and get turnovers.Heard that the last few seasons and shown the deep zone prevent nothing D
Wanting to play attack style and actually doing it are vastly different things. At the amateur level in different sports I have seen many coaches talk about it, but then go back to "playing it safe." It seems to this fan, that that is what has happened with Mark W.

The good news: talking about it. Next: making it happen.

Some coaches, philosophically or emotionally, cannot bring themselves to play with an attack style. They call it gambling.

Ya never know.

Just IMO ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

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Hambone
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CardiacKid wrote:So I just might have to eat my words and retract my vent/rant about the manner in which Harris left the Lions....maybe.

Wally's statement earlier this week went "At this point, I’m not saying we’re going to make him an offer. I don’t believe that we will." The way I interpreted that was no offer had been tabled...period. None in the past and definitely none upcoming. What I perceived to be complete inactivity on the part of Wally was frustrating to say the least.

Well, the Lion's website in the news section now has an article written by Jamie Cartmell entitled "FREE AGENCY: WHERE SOMETIMES THE BEST FISH ARE IN YOUR OWN POND". In it, and I quote, Wally states "we did offer (Harris) a new contract during the season. It was a lucrative proposal which would have made him the highest paid running back in the CFL and it was not accepted."

So what is to be believed? Did Wally make a serious effort to keep Harris in the fold? Did Harris reject it out of frustration with the overall offensive struggles of the Leos? Or did he think he could make even bigger money than what was on the table?

I don't think Wally is making this up but I do find the timing of the article interesting....a rebuttal to the complaints of fans such as myself? I do wonder why his statement to the media earlier this week made no allusion to the earlier offer during the season? By not mentioning it, he left himself open to significant criticism.

The article touches on more than just the Harris situation. http://www.bclions.com/2016/02/04/free- ... -own-pond/
I think what is to be believed is that both things happened. Buono discussed extension with Harris during the season and hasn't made any offers during the offseason. I think when he made the statement about not making an offer it was in the context of the current offseason. What happened 5 months ago is moot. Not pushing hard for Harris now may be a result of the tone from Andrew's camp in those conversations back in mid-season.
Last edited by Hambone on Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Lions4ever
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Lionsfan65 wrote:
The production from Andrew Harris can easily be replaced. 4.7 yards per carry really isn't that great. Harris was at his best in open space on the outside, he is not a pounding type back that can get the tough yards up the middle such as Jerome Messam.

Say what you want about Wally, but he has always been able to find a decent running back who can get the job done.
LU just reporting that the Lions have signed a couple of backs Mikel Leshoure and Sam Ojuri. Ojuri has been on the Ti-Cats roster.
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JohnHenry
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Kory Sheets may also be available, assuming his hamstring injury has healed. He was a dominating RB in Sask, almost unstoppable in big games. He could be worth an invite to camp, as the Riders will apparently take a pass on him.
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Hambone
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JohnHenry wrote:Kory Sheets may also be available, assuming his hamstring injury has healed. He was a dominating RB in Sask, almost unstoppable in big games. He could be worth an invite to camp, as the Riders will apparently take a pass on him.
No thanks. His injury wasn't to his hamstring. It was a torn Achilles tendon. This time it was to the other leg from the one he tore when he was 25. He turns 31 next month and other than the Raiders 2014 Training Camp and some exhibition games hasn't seen any sustained action 2013. If BC wants to invest in a tailback I want them to invest on someone who could fill that role for the next 5 years or hopefully more, not someone you're crossing your fingers that you might be able to squeeze one more year out of......if he can return somewhere close to pre-injury form of 3 years ago.
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JohnnyMusso
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Here more details on Lions new Running backs. Seems the NFL Lions former RB could be Harris' replacement:

The BC Lions signed two international running backs Friday, bringing in Mikel Leshoure and Sam Ojuri.

Leshoure played two seasons with the NFL’s Detroit Lions from 2012-13, rushing for 807 yards and nine touchdowns in 17 appearances.

Leshoure was a second round NFL draft pick in 2011 and was a University of Illinois product. Ojuri played his collegiate ball at North Dakota State.
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