Question for the Keepers of the Rule Book

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CardiacKid
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Didn't know whether to post this in the latest post game thread or not....

The Riders last TD of last night's game involved Chris R. getting an accidental pass interference call. He fell on the heels of Roosevelt who caught the ball and clearly landed outside the endzone before rolling in.

I am not questioning the call but I am wondering, shouldn't the ball have been spotted where Roosevelt was "downed" or landed and the penalty applied from there? Something like half the distance to the endzone where Roosevelt was downed by contact? The penalty yardage would have been exceedingly minimal if the penalty scenario I am thinking of, actually applied.

Clearly Chris R. touched him and was responsible for Roosevelt hitting the turf. So shouldn't Roosevelt be considered as downed by contact outside the endzone? I totally understand if he laid out for the ball, caught it and rolled into the endzone before any contact.

Just curious about that one...Thanks for any explanation.
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DanoT
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Here is my take on the play: The hit was illegal because it came before the ball arrived, therefore the receiver caught the ball and then no once touched him after the catch and he was not then down by contact so he could roll or crawl into the end zone for a TD.
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Hambone
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DanoT wrote:Here is my take on the play: The hit was illegal because it came before the ball arrived, therefore the receiver caught the ball and then no once touched him after the catch and he was not then down by contact so he could roll or crawl into the end zone for a TD.
Correct. The contact occurred before the ball arrived or else there was no foul committed.
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WestCoastJoe
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Another rule book question. Don't want to look it up.

Arceneaux caught a pass vs Edmonton with time running out. The Esks might have been content to let him kill the clock by running. He was tackled. Just enough time left, after consultation, to allow Jennings to try the Hail Mary pass to the end zone. If Manny had taken even one more stride, I think the clock would have been killed. And of course, the play can run to its conclusion even if the clock runs out.

If Manny had hit the deck and stayed down, untouched, how long would the clock run before the referee calls time on the play? Can't let it go forever. I am sure there is a standard ruling for this. Not obvious to me at this time.

QB hits the deck --> play over. RB or receiver hits the deck, when does the clock stop, if the defence does not touch the ball carrier? And at game end, the rule might be somewhat different, I expect.
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WestCoastJoe
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There are always some grey areas.

I recall the Vikings, near the goal line. Tarkenton is in trouble, rolls out, sees nothing, is being tackled, and rolls the ball forward, faking a fumble, where a Viking can fall on it.

The rule was amended, dunno if it was because of that play, to not allowing the ball to be advanced by a fumble.

Something like that ... grey areas.

Ever referee kids football or baseball or basketball? So much stuff to know. Enough so that both teams can get ticked off. LOL
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

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JohnHenry
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The CFL's accidental pass interference (tripping an opponent by a player in a trail position) is a 10-yd penalty and automatic first down.

I believe the officials are supposed to whistle the play dead if the ball carrier does not attempt to advance the ball. It is up to the refs discretion how long he waits before blowing his whistle. If 3 seconds ran off the clock while the ball carrier was laying prone on the ground, to end the game, it might be reasonable in that scenario for the ref to add 1 second on the clock allowing one more play.

I know the league brought in a rule several years ago that if a kick returner in the endzone does not attempt to advance the ball, the ref can whistle play dead with one point awarded to the kicking team.
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pennw
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JohnHenry wrote:
I know the league brought in a rule several years ago that if a kick returner in the endzone does not attempt to advance the ball, the ref can whistle play dead with one point awarded to the kicking team.
The difference is in this scenario , the opponent is able to chase the returner to force the end . In the other they can just ignore him to waste time , which should not be allowed as there is no way then for the receiver to have the play stopped in that case .
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sj-roc
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WestCoastJoe wrote:Another rule book question. Don't want to look it up.

Arceneaux caught a pass vs Edmonton with time running out. The Esks might have been content to let him kill the clock by running. He was tackled. Just enough time left, after consultation, to allow Jennings to try the Hail Mary pass to the end zone. If Manny had taken even one more stride, I think the clock would have been killed. And of course, the play can run to its conclusion even if the clock runs out.

If Manny had hit the deck and stayed down, untouched, how long would the clock run before the referee calls time on the play? Can't let it go forever. I am sure there is a standard ruling for this. Not obvious to me at this time.

QB hits the deck --> play over. RB or receiver hits the deck, when does the clock stop, if the defence does not touch the ball carrier? And at game end, the rule might be somewhat different, I expect.
The rule book has this to say from the 2011 version, my most recent copy:

"When a ball carrier is on the ground and, in the judgment of the official, is not attempting to advance the ball, the official shall immediately declare the ball dead."

As a ball carrier I would think you ought to slide feet first deliberately to make it most greatly clear to the officials you're no longer attempting to advance the ball. You won't be exempt from tackling (unless you're a QB, that rule only applies to them) but you'd stand a better chance of saving the most time on the clock rather than if you drop to the turf (without defensive contact) in any other fashion.
Hambone wrote:
DanoT wrote:Here is my take on the play: The hit was illegal because it came before the ball arrived, therefore the receiver caught the ball and then no once touched him after the catch and he was not then down by contact so he could roll or crawl into the end zone for a TD.
Correct. The contact occurred before the ball arrived or else there was no foul committed.
I agree with this too. The receiver is not a ball carrier before the ball arrives so any prior contact that might otherwise be deemed a tackling attempt cannot be.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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Robbie
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In light of these recent rule definitions in both the CFL and NFL alike, I think it's time for all the coaches to teach and then remind the more uncommon plays and what the proper course of action is to avoid penalties and to benefit their team the most should such plays occur.

The Seahawks certainly got away with this play as the officials ruled that K.J. Wright accidentally batted the ball in his own end zone while in another game with the same play they will likely call a penalty. Had a penalty occurred, the Seahawks will likely have lost the game as it would nullified the turnover and given the Lions a fresh set of downs under the 1-yard line the Lions would likely got a touchdown with very little time remaining.

Personally, I'd say Wright intentionally batted the ball and it was his ignorance about such rules in such situations, and Pete Carroll will now teach all his defensive players on what to do if that occurs again.

In the CFL for the identical play, is there a penalty for that assuming Wright did intentionally bat the ball the way he did?

I'm reminded of a play many years ago in a Lions game when they were at defence and a fumble occurred. One Lions defensive player and one opponent closest to the loose ball started running towards the ball. Suddenly instead of going for the ball, the Lions defensive player decided to block the opponent in hopes that a teammate would recover the fumble instead. The Lions were immediately penalized and possession went back to the opponent.

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It looks like the CFL and NFL have similarities when rules change, specifically both leagues backed up the position for conversions. While we're all CFL fans and should respect CFL rules, are there any particular NFL rule you think is better or fair for the same particular situation? For me, I've always wondered if the NFL rule is fairer when it comes to fumbles that go out of bounds. In the CFL it's the team to last touch the ball before it goes out of bounds that will get possession, while in the NFL it's the team to last have clear control and possession of the ball before it went out of bounds to get possession.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
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祝你龍年行大運。
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TheLionKing
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I thought knocking the ball out of balls gives you possession ie. the last team touching the football before going out of bounds retain possession.
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sj-roc
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TheLionKing wrote:I thought knocking the ball out of balls gives you possession ie. the last team touching the football before going out of bounds retain possession.
Yes, that is the case in the CFL regardless of who last had possession and full control of the ball during the same play. Not sure how it works in the NFL, what happens in general when a loose ball is batted out of bounds but I know it doesn't go by who touched it last for purposes of determining ensuing possession like in the CFL, only who last had possession and control.

If one wants to debate which rule is "better" in terms of how possession is awarded on live balls that go out of bounds, it must also be considered how the rule in each league impacts how the onside kickoff is executed. In the NFL as the kicking team you at least need to get possession of the ball in bounds at some point (I'm not fully sure but the receiving team probably gets the ball otherwise if this never happens on the play) whereas in the CFL you need only be the last one to get a hand on it. So there's often the scenario of two opposing players going vertical on a ball kicked about 11 or 12 yards downfield (and toward the sideline) and trying to be the one to bat the ball (from about 8 feet in the air) out of bounds.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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Robbie
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sj-roc wrote:
TheLionKing wrote:I thought knocking the ball out of balls gives you possession ie. the last team touching the football before going out of bounds retain possession.
Yes, that is the case in the CFL regardless of who last had possession and full control of the ball during the same play. Not sure how it works in the NFL, what happens in general when a loose ball is batted out of bounds but I know it doesn't go by who touched it last for purposes of determining ensuing possession like in the CFL, only who last had possession and control.
In the CFL it's the last team that touched the ball before it went out of bounds (one exception is kicking described below) whereas in the NFL it's the team that had clear control of the ball before it went out of bounds.

Team A has the ball and fumbles. It is picked up by someone from team B who has control of the ball and runs a few steps but then fumbles as well. Then someone from team A bats the ball out of bounds. In this scenario, in the CFL team A gets the ball whereas in the NFL, team B gets the ball.

The exception is defined in Article 2 below in that if the ball is kicked out of bounds then the ball immediately belongs to the opposite team.

And described in Article 6 had the same Seahawks-Lions play occurred in the CFL, then there would be no penalty and the Seahawks would get the ball at their own 25-yard line.

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Article 2 – Ball Kicked Out Of Bounds
When the ball is kicked Out of Bounds in the Field of Play, it shall belong to the
opposite team, subject to the penalty applicable on a kickoff.

Article 3 – Ball Fumbled Out Of Bounds
When, on any play, the ball is fumbled Out of Bounds, or touches a player in the
Field of Play and then goes Out of Bounds, it shall belong to the team that last
touched the ball in the Field of Play.
A team shall be entitled to possession when a player of the team, while off the
ground, knocks or bats the ball directly Out of Bounds, provided he lands in
bounds.
The ball shall next be scrimmaged:
(a) at the point where the ball went Out of Bounds or,
(b) at the point where the ball was last touched in the Field of Play, whichever
point is closer to the Goal Line of the team entitled to possession.

Article 4 – Ball Going Into Opponent’s Goal Area
When a player directs the ball, other than by kicking, from the Field of Play over
the opponent’s Goal Line and hence Out of Bounds in the Goal Area without the
ball touching an opponent, it shall be ruled as a fumble Out of Bounds in the
Field of Play, with the ball declared dead at the point where it was last touched in
the Field of Play.

Article 5 – Ball Going Into Own Goal Area
When a player fumbles or directs the ball from the Field of Play into his own Goal
Area, where the ball goes Out of Bounds without possession being gained by
either team, a Safety Touch score shall be awarded.

Article 6 – Ball Touched In Goal Area
When a player directs the ball other than by kicking, from the Field of Play over
the opponent’s Goal Line where it is recovered by an opponent, or is touched by
an opponent before going Out of Bounds in the Goal Area, there shall be no
score and the ball shall be awarded to the opponent’s team at its 25-yard line. If
in attempting to run the ball out of the Goal Area, the opponent’s team commits
an infraction the penalty shall be applied from the 25-yard line.

Article 7 – Ball Fumbled Out Of Goal Area
When a team in its own Goal Area fumbles or directs the ball, other than by
kicking, across the Goal Line and Out of Bounds in the Field of Play without
touching an opponent, the non-offending team may:
(a) accept a two-point score if the offending team had previously directed the
ball into its own Goal Area or,
(b) accept a one-point score if the non-offending team had kicked the ball into
the Goal Area or,
(c) decline the score and require the team entitled to possession to scrimmage
the ball 24 yards in from the point where the ball went Out of Bounds or,
(d) if prior to the fumble or offside pass Out of Bounds, the player’s team had
gained possession in its Goal Area by intercepting a forward pass or recovering
an opponent’s fumble from the Field of Play, it shall be awarded the ball at its 25-
yard line without option.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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