Has the time come for Wally to be given the same fate as many of his players? When he came here back in 2003 the Lions were a mess. He brought stability and winning to the organization. But did we peak way back in the 04-07 run? It is his 13th year heard and it seems like we have settled and a slow decline since 2008, minus the 2011 Grey Cup. Some fresh blood and a real how cleaning may do some good, we just don't seem the like the first class organization that we used to be.
I never thought Wally was a real X's and O's coach. But his eye for talent was second to none, and could assemble a great coaching staff. So far through five games this team seems to lack both.
Tedford made for some good PR and media coverage with his hire back in December. But if we look past PAC 10 coach and NCAA co-ordinator there is not a whole lot to get excited about. He had 2 years of CFL coaching experience 25 years ago. He has a small window of success at Cal that came about with Aaron Rogers at QB. Other than that Cal was never really more that an after thought in the PAC 10. His 1 year at Tampa seems to be full of unanswered questions, but it is safe to say that it never really worked out.
A few years ago Montreal hired Dan Hawkins as their head coach. He too had a small window of success south of the border followed by a few years of mediocrity. Tedford like Hawkins had no real CFL coaching experience. Montreal cut their losses after a 2-3 start and fired Dan Hawkins. Now I am not saying we fire Tedford tomorrow. But it doesn't feel like we are improving or even on the right track.
There is no Next Man Up mentality.
Calgary 4-2 Lost both tackles and starting RB
Edmonton 4-1 QB has been out since week 1
Toronto 3-1 QB has been out all year, and has yet to play a game in Toronto
Montreal 2-3 1st and 2nd string QB's hurt in week 1
The riders have a ton of injuries to go a long with their 0-6. I am not sure where we would be if we had a few injuries to key guys, Andrew Harris would be a tough on to replace. But I just don't if the Lions have the mentality to step up when someone goes down. Travis seems like a good guy a maybe leader. But is he the guy that can get others to elevate their game?
I just wonder if everyone from the top down has gotten to comfortable.
State of the Lions
Moderator: Team Captains
Wally is here until his contract runs out at the end of the 2016 season. By that time, a new owner may be in place to choose a successor. Nothing will happen before then.
This is a rebuilding year for the Lions, who have the youngest team in the league. We all knew at the outset that patience would be needed. A 9-9 record and a playoff berth would be a bonus. The problems of inconsistent offensive production and soft defensive play are fixable this year. There is enough talent to be competitive from week to week and the coaching staff is capable of making the changes needed. The Lions are not the Riders.
This is a rebuilding year for the Lions, who have the youngest team in the league. We all knew at the outset that patience would be needed. A 9-9 record and a playoff berth would be a bonus. The problems of inconsistent offensive production and soft defensive play are fixable this year. There is enough talent to be competitive from week to week and the coaching staff is capable of making the changes needed. The Lions are not the Riders.
That is the problem, it doesn't matter what Wally does he is safe. He is owed to much money to buy out.B.C.FAN wrote:Wally is here until his contract runs out at the end of the 2016 season. By that time, a new owner may be in place to choose a successor. Nothing will happen before then.
Sounds like an excuse to me, and one that is not really valid. Difference in age from the youngest team to the oldest team is less than 18 months.B.C.FAN wrote:This is a rebuilding year for the Lions, who have the youngest team in the league.
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Even General Managers have a shelf life. Lions have been in slow decline in recent years. His loyalty to his underachieving staff has lead to the Lions' current state of fan disinterest, decline in season tickets. The biggest problem with the Lions aside from the attendance has been the defence and special teams...... both coached by McMann and Washington, Buono loyalists. It is time for change.
- SammyGreene
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Lions weren't the youngest team in the league by much if I recall and I wonder how much Taylor replacing Burnham in the line-up 3 weeks ago swung that? The only inexperience on offence is the offensive line which has been one of the team's bright spots. Leonard is the only true rookie in the skill positions. Defence is a different story but as discussed in length the scheme is the biggest culprit there.
I agree with a lot of what Kenny suggests. Wally's quarterback factory seemed to close down a couple of years ago. Printers, Pierce, Jackson, Lulay, Reilly and arguably Demarco then nothing since. Jennings is probably their best QB prospect and he was released by the Riders last season. Beck is 34 with limited CFL experience.
We won't see any changes in upper management until Braley sells or Wally retires. Remember, he was very content with the job Adam Rita was doing until Ackles arrived and thought otherwise.
I agree with a lot of what Kenny suggests. Wally's quarterback factory seemed to close down a couple of years ago. Printers, Pierce, Jackson, Lulay, Reilly and arguably Demarco then nothing since. Jennings is probably their best QB prospect and he was released by the Riders last season. Beck is 34 with limited CFL experience.
We won't see any changes in upper management until Braley sells or Wally retires. Remember, he was very content with the job Adam Rita was doing until Ackles arrived and thought otherwise.
My biggest beef is this. I understood the need for turnover after last year's unacceptable debacle to close out the year. I knew changes were in the works under Tedford. But I did not expect the roster to be gutted to the degree to which it was. There was simply too many bodies to replace at camp. Some have worked, others have not.
While I recognize that Eric Taylor was not the long term answer, I really believe he should have been brought back until a better replacement was found. The fact that the Stamps released him and no one has picked him up speaks more to the fact that every other team has a wealth of talent at defensive tackle. However, this position continues to be a sore spot for the Lions (although Brooks has shown promise).
One of Stefan Logan or Tim Brown should have also been kept as BOTH continue to flourish with their new clubs and we struggle to find a consistent return game. This is a crucial part of football. Partly through penalties and partly through mediocre returns, we're returning far too many kicks/punts well inside our 30, which is putting a lot of strain on a 'dink and dunk' spread offense to mount an attack and put up points.
DH
While I recognize that Eric Taylor was not the long term answer, I really believe he should have been brought back until a better replacement was found. The fact that the Stamps released him and no one has picked him up speaks more to the fact that every other team has a wealth of talent at defensive tackle. However, this position continues to be a sore spot for the Lions (although Brooks has shown promise).
One of Stefan Logan or Tim Brown should have also been kept as BOTH continue to flourish with their new clubs and we struggle to find a consistent return game. This is a crucial part of football. Partly through penalties and partly through mediocre returns, we're returning far too many kicks/punts well inside our 30, which is putting a lot of strain on a 'dink and dunk' spread offense to mount an attack and put up points.
DH
Roar, You Lions, Roar
on Logan or Brown. your right they made the wrong decision but its not really impacting the team. When they decided to you go with a US kicker, that basically uses up the DI spot for the returner, so you have to find a returner from starting roster. Leone is out punting his counterpart by 6-7yds but we are only getting out returned by 1-2yds on average.David wrote:My biggest beef is this. I understood the need for turnover after last year's unacceptable debacle to close out the year. I knew changes were in the works under Tedford. But I did not expect the roster to be gutted to the degree to which it was. There was simply too many bodies to replace at camp. Some have worked, others have not.
While I recognize that Eric Taylor was not the long term answer, I really believe he should have been brought back until a better replacement was found. The fact that the Stamps released him and no one has picked him up speaks more to the fact that every other team has a wealth of talent at defensive tackle. However, this position continues to be a sore spot for the Lions (although Brooks has shown promise).
One of Stefan Logan or Tim Brown should have also been kept as BOTH continue to flourish with their new clubs and we struggle to find a consistent return game. This is a crucial part of football. Partly through penalties and partly through mediocre returns, we're returning far too many kicks/punts well inside our 30, which is putting a lot of strain on a 'dink and dunk' spread offense to mount an attack and put up points.
DH
On the DL and secondary. After 5 games, i think we have way bigger issues in the secondary.
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David wrote:My biggest beef is this. I understood the need for turnover after last year's unacceptable debacle to close out the year. I knew changes were in the works under Tedford. But I did not expect the roster to be gutted to the degree to which it was. There was simply too many bodies to replace at camp. Some have worked, others have not.
While I recognize that Eric Taylor was not the long term answer, I really believe he should have been brought back until a better replacement was found. The fact that the Stamps released him and no one has picked him up speaks more to the fact that every other team has a wealth of talent at defensive tackle. However, this position continues to be a sore spot for the Lions (although Brooks has shown promise).
One of Stefan Logan or Tim Brown should have also been kept as BOTH continue to flourish with their new clubs and we struggle to find a consistent return game. This is a crucial part of football. Partly through penalties and partly through mediocre returns, we're returning far too many kicks/punts well inside our 30, which is putting a lot of strain on a 'dink and dunk' spread offense to mount an attack and put up points.
DH
Great post, especially the part about replacing Eric Taylor without having a replacement in mind. This is something that the Lions have been guilty of in the past. Replacing an aging vet just before his play deteriorates is fine but ONLY if you have a replacement ready to take over.
Just as baffling is the Lions switching first year starter Westerman to DE instead of his more familiar spot at DT. And then playing rookie DE Roh at DT. So the the Lions have 2 rookie DTs instead of one. I would very much like to know who is behind this decision. Is it the HC, DC, or line coach? Throw in Bighill playing really as a Safety instead of LB and it is no surprise that the Lions have the worst D in the CFL.
Last years team needed changes, but if looks like Washington should and have been part of it and perhaps McMann. How hard did he fight to keep one of Brown or Logan for Special Teams?
IMO the fans know that the Lions have blown things up and are waiting to see where all the pieces fall before paying top dollar for an unknown product, hence the poor attendance.
As for me, I have lowered my expectations and have resigned myself to the fact that it will take a season or two to compete with the top teams in the CFL.
At least the play of a very inexperienced O line has been like a breath of fresh air compared to what we have seen for the past several seasons.
- WestCoastJoe
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This sums it up for me.TheLionKing wrote:Even General Managers have a shelf life. Lions have been in slow decline in recent years. His loyalty to his underachieving staff has lead to the Lions' current state of fan disinterest, decline in season tickets. The biggest problem with the Lions aside from the attendance has been the defence and special teams...... both coached by McMann and Washington, Buono loyalists. It is time for change.
Best before date? Expired.
Decline? Yes.
Loyalty over productivity? Yes.
Defence and STs underachieving and coached by Wally loyalists? Yes.
........
Defence. The two best DCs we have had, Dave Ritchie and Rich Stubler, were let go to open a spot for Wally loyalists, Mike Benevides and Mark Washington. The latter two chose defences that were compatible with Wally's ultra conservative, old school philosophy. React. Do not attack. Soft zone. Do not blitz. No need to stunt or overload or move the players around. Make 'em play like men.
Two titles in twelve years. Nice, but hardly a dynasty. Not far from par for the course in a small league.
Since 2003, these teams teams have won two Cups: Edmonton, Toronto, B.C., Saskatchewan, Calgary and Montreal. Although in the early years of Wally's tenure here, there was talk of the Lions as the flagship of the league, that is hardly the case now.
This is year 13 of the Wally Buono regime. That provides loads of evidence of how decisions are made.
Sacrilege to have this discussion? It is pro sports. You are as good as your recent record.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.
Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
- The_Pauser
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Inconsistent offensive production is a concern. Sure you can look at it as a rebuilding year, but this is a veteran offensive group. If anything, the O-Line has been rebuilt, but that has probably been (aside from Harris) our strong point on offense. It's concerning that the mistakes are coming from the vets.B.C.FAN wrote:Wally is here until his contract runs out at the end of the 2016 season. By that time, a new owner may be in place to choose a successor. Nothing will happen before then.
This is a rebuilding year for the Lions, who have the youngest team in the league. We all knew at the outset that patience would be needed. A 9-9 record and a playoff berth would be a bonus. The problems of inconsistent offensive production and soft defensive play are fixable this year. There is enough talent to be competitive from week to week and the coaching staff is capable of making the changes needed. The Lions are not the Riders.
Defense is a mess, but that's more of an issue with schemes me thinks. That, and a pathetic D-line.
Roar you Lions roar!
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We have the worst special teams. Logan and Brown are miles ahead of our returners and apparently couldn't play?? Our receivers do not go up and fight for the ball or come back ahead of the defenders like Calgary and other receivers. Lulay can not throw the long ball, he never was great at it. Dunigan threw the best long ball of all of our qb's O line are a surprise Bighill playing out of position. He needs to be back in the box, teams are running at us because of the huge gaps in the middle. I thought we had an upgrade at safety?? He is no where to be found to help out the inside db's. Parks looked bad and could not tackle. We are lucky to be 2-3 Sask could have easily won both of the games. Maybe Edmonton will come in thinking it will be easy.. I think we will be lucky to get 18000 plus.
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- Toppy Vann
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Tedford made a lot of the calls apparently on who left and who stayed and I suspect his fingerprints are all over two areas:
1. Logan and Brown - gone. It's typically the kind of thinking that these guys are a dime a dozen or it's not that critical.
2. Int. Kicker. Leone is great but the answer to a problem the Lions didn't really need. Loading up on a guy who can you 3 points but forgetting the kick return game on the other side is nuts. McCallum was fine and bring alone a NON- INT player at this role to take over when the Lions need to load up on Canadian talent if they are to get to the top again.
The decision to keep coaches in MW and CM on STs was not a major surprise as you need some continuity.
This gem from Lowell Ullrich today is how most feel it seems and why Marsh was scapegoated like others have in the past was a surprise.
This REC corps is scaring nobody. Great H Back but if you can't get him the ball he can be the incredible hulk or spiderman for all it's worth - not a difference maker.
MW's def has become predictable. Esks are predictable as are Stamps and Als BUT they vary the schemes and Esks put up anywhere from 6, 7, 8 or 10 at the line to give them a differing look before the snap count so they mask what is coming to some extent. Little things that help and that build confidence in the team.
Schemes do build confidence when players trust their coaches' judgment and they're prepared well for opponents.
MW is like a kids coach. He has two great players and tries to make them the only ones to do anything so teams take them out and it's over. Rather than mix it up. He's losing as he has Bighill and Sol E trying to be put in places that are weakening the whole where these gives you a 100% plus in the position they're covering on a play but in the middle where needed it gives the Lions 100% of nothing as the gaps are exploited. MW over coaching was Farhan's description. I'd be less charitable and say it's amateurish and designed to lose.
1. Logan and Brown - gone. It's typically the kind of thinking that these guys are a dime a dozen or it's not that critical.
2. Int. Kicker. Leone is great but the answer to a problem the Lions didn't really need. Loading up on a guy who can you 3 points but forgetting the kick return game on the other side is nuts. McCallum was fine and bring alone a NON- INT player at this role to take over when the Lions need to load up on Canadian talent if they are to get to the top again.
The decision to keep coaches in MW and CM on STs was not a major surprise as you need some continuity.
This gem from Lowell Ullrich today is how most feel it seems and why Marsh was scapegoated like others have in the past was a surprise.
If this season is to be salvaged to any extent they need some urgent fixes or Lulay will continue to get heat for failing to connect on what has been forcing too many balls downfield. How Cortez is not more of an influence on what works in the CFL is surprising and either he's out of ammo or the HC isn't listening."Washington, a holdover from the staff of Mike Benevides, is guaranteed not to last past this season if some kind of resolution isn’t found. It’s the same defensive scheme that was one of the league’s best last year, which can only suggest the Lions haven’t discovered the right mix of personnel this season. How the Lions thought, for example, they would have a better secondary without Dante Marsh remains one of the game’s great mysteries.Lulay and the offence took 10 penalties — effecting 88 yards of field position — against Winnipeg, but flags on special teams plays have been even more disastrous."
This REC corps is scaring nobody. Great H Back but if you can't get him the ball he can be the incredible hulk or spiderman for all it's worth - not a difference maker.
MW's def has become predictable. Esks are predictable as are Stamps and Als BUT they vary the schemes and Esks put up anywhere from 6, 7, 8 or 10 at the line to give them a differing look before the snap count so they mask what is coming to some extent. Little things that help and that build confidence in the team.
Schemes do build confidence when players trust their coaches' judgment and they're prepared well for opponents.
MW is like a kids coach. He has two great players and tries to make them the only ones to do anything so teams take them out and it's over. Rather than mix it up. He's losing as he has Bighill and Sol E trying to be put in places that are weakening the whole where these gives you a 100% plus in the position they're covering on a play but in the middle where needed it gives the Lions 100% of nothing as the gaps are exploited. MW over coaching was Farhan's description. I'd be less charitable and say it's amateurish and designed to lose.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
Defensive line problems have been evident since 2013 and they have not been well addressed by the front office.David wrote:My biggest beef is this. I understood the need for turnover after last year's unacceptable debacle to close out the year. I knew changes were in the works under Tedford. But I did not expect the roster to be gutted to the degree to which it was. There was simply too many bodies to replace at camp. Some have worked, others have not.
While I recognize that Eric Taylor was not the long term answer, I really believe he should have been brought back until a better replacement was found. The fact that the Stamps released him and no one has picked him up speaks more to the fact that every other team has a wealth of talent at defensive tackle. However, this position continues to be a sore spot for the Lions (although Brooks has shown promise).
One of Stefan Logan or Tim Brown should have also been kept as BOTH continue to flourish with their new clubs and we struggle to find a consistent return game. This is a crucial part of football. Partly through penalties and partly through mediocre returns, we're returning far too many kicks/punts well inside our 30, which is putting a lot of strain on a 'dink and dunk' spread offense to mount an attack and put up points.
DH
And while I'm glad that Logan and Brown are flourishing elsewhere, the struggles here are less about their replacements as return people than they are about the guys who block to setup the return, and that is on McMann. One of the reasons I was opposed to the trade of Haidara and the retention of Ianuzzi is because Ianuzzi is an ole blocker at a critical position on kick returns, while Haidara could, you know, actually block a guy. Returns aren't always about the returner, they're about having guys who can block, particularly on the edge and that is not and has not been this team's strong suit.
Edited to add: weakness in teams speak to the lack of depth on a roster as well. If you don't draft well, you don't have good depth and that shows itself on teams.
We've lost Phillips and Yell for stretches this season and with a lack of experienced depth that's going to cause problems.On the DL and secondary. After 5 games, i think we have way bigger issues in the secondary.
I've appreciated the organizational stability we've had since 2003, especially considering how much of a mess things were for the decade before. And Wally isn't going anywhere until his contract is up. I guess what I'm going to hang my hat on is Tedford doing what most Head Coaches do in Season #2, which is clean out the coaching staff of the previous regime in what traditionally aren't his areas of expertise.
- MexicoLionFan
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MW is like a kids coach. He has two great players and tries to make them the only ones to do anything so teams take them out and it's over. Rather than mix it up. He's losing as he has Bighill and Sol E trying to be put in places that are weakening the whole where these gives you a 100% plus in the position they're covering on a play but in the middle where needed it gives the Lions 100% of nothing as the gaps are exploited. MW over coaching was Farhan's description. I'd be less charitable and say it's amateurish and designed to lose.
Thanks for this Toppy, last season while the Lions were leading the league against the pass I noticed that there was something very wrong with this defence, that in essence, MW was confusing QBs by utilizing all 3 LBs in pass coverage on almost every down. That there were massive weaknesses to this defence and that sooner or later offences were going to discover this and exploit them. They did late in the season and all the wheels fell off the bus, dramatically. After the playoff loss to MTL MW was in TEARS over his group's performance and hinted strongly that he was being coerced into running this style of Defence and that he had learned his lesson. BIZARRE comments and behaviour from a supposed Professional coach! When this year started our D showed ZIP in preseason, but I think most of us felt that MW was going to be true to his words and attack as he had so many fast, undersized DLinemen. Incredibly, he wasn't, and we have continued with the SAME OLD SYSTEM as last year, perhaps thinking that his Christian Faith would lead to miracles in the results. Meanwhile back on planet Earth, teams have continued to lick their chops lining up against our Defence, which is incredible because possess a ferocious LB core that can take heads off! Teams should be TERRIFIED of playing the Lions, like back in 2010 when the best offences in the league consistently struggled with our young Defence because they were anticipating BEING HIT, especially by Sol, who might just take their heads off. Instead, Biggie and Sol are asked to play like Ballerinas instead of football players. And you don't need the opinion of LU to know that this Defence is a joke, what would the likes of Rick Klassen, Nick Hebeler and Tom Brown say about MW's creation? Care to ask Dick Butkus? Football is a tough game both physically AND mentally, it takes strong minds and bodies to succeed, and this is NOT what I am witnessing through Wally's leadership. When you ruthlessly cut the likes of Dante Marsh and Korey Banks (two All Time Lion defenders) but inexplicably hold on to the likes of Dorazio, MW and Chuck McMann, then MASSIVE BIAS exists within this organization...and teams that operate from bias always LOSE and players learn to AVOID these teams, hence no more FAs in Lion's land.
"Condemnation Without Investigation is the height of ignorance."
Albert Einstein
Albert Einstein