Lionbackers.com

Many people in the electorate made it clear that they wanted fare-gates. Translink has been in the process of getting a computer system up/running that will have both fare-gates and a digital payment card as features. There are lots of benefits to these changes but what is amazing to me is HOW LONG these changes are taking to implement.

For e.g. many Skytrain stations needed renovations in order to be able to install these fare-gates. Lots of ticket machines both for the Skytrain and on busses needed to be changed. One of the suppossed benefits will be the digital payment card known as COMPASS. This card can be pre-loaded with money and transit rides will be debitted automatically.

One problem is apparently the system we've purchased is similar to a system used in Chicago. They have had no end of problems with it and some of those problems are showing up here. I give Translink credit for not just ploughing ahead and starting use of this system until BUGS get worked out. There will be BUGS regardless, but try to minimize them.....

The real benefit, IMO, to the COMPASS system is not Fare-Gates and making sure EVERYBODY PAYS. IMO, the real value that will be provided to Translink (and therefore the taxpayers) will be the wealth of DATA that the system can then mine in order to provide an effecient transit structure. So much of the COMPASS chatter is about reducing the number of ways payments are made and/or stopping free-loading. However, I think the real value will be them getting stronger, reliable DATA (if they can get the system up/running ).

I live in Vancouver and use transit regularily. Recently my father was placed in a care home in Surrey. There is NO QUESTION, IMO, that Vancouver's transit system is superior. I don't mean we're better, I mean Vancouverites are GETTING BETTER SERVICE. If you don't live within WALKING DISTANCE of a Skytrain station in Surrey, you are NOT GETTING the transit levels of service, I get here in Vancouver. ANYTIME OF DAY, most busses in Surrey ARE PACKED. This is the kind of data that I hope COMPASS can show Translink planners so that the citizens of Surrey who want to use transit can get more of the kind of service I get in Vancouver. Just my

I use transit about 3 times a year at most. I don't know what all these changes will do, but I expect to still be able to just use cash or credit card to get a ticket. If I used transit regularly, I would just use a monthy buspass. Best thing they could have done is copy Toronto subway, at least the way it was in the 70s. A guy in a cage at every stop. Turnstiles. No transit police.

Compass, phooey

KnowItAll wrote:I use transit about 3 times a year at most. I don't know what all these changes will do, but I expect to still be able to just use cash or credit card to get a ticket. If I used transit regularly, I would just use a monthy buspass. Best thing they could have done is copy Toronto subway, at least the way it was in the 70s. A guy in a cage at every stop. Turnstiles. No transit police.

Compass, phooey

NOPE, cash is a noGO using the compass. I agree cash should still be an option but it won't. Where I think this will really hurt is TOURISM. We're gonna expect tourists in town for a day (or more) to figure out and invest in a compass card to get around?

My understanding is that once the Compass Card comes in, you'll need to swipe/scan it to open the turnstiles to get onto the boarding platform for the skytrain. So here's what I'm dreading about it.

Say you're coming home from a shopping trip with a couple of heavy bags (and possibly an umbrella if it's this time of year). It'll be awkward having to stop and get your card out for the scan. Multiply that by perhaps 50 other people also trying to get through with you and it seems to me it's really going to slow things down in terms of trying to make your way around town. I really hope this can be avoided but I'm not sure how. Sounds like this might be one of the problems in Chicago?

A lot of people are continuing to evade paying fares despite so called crackdown. Just note the number of people getting on the back of the buses without paying. Translink has been badly mismanaged from day 1. Fare gates initially were not installed because the people that was running the system believed on the honour system. How did that work out ?

TheLionKing wrote:A lot of people are continuing to evade paying fares despite so called crackdown. Just note the number of people getting on the back of the buses without paying. Translink has been badly mismanaged from day 1. Fare gates initially because they rely on the honour system. How did that work out ?

If you're referring to the 99 B-line, that route specifically allows people to board through all three doors of its articulated buses if they have advance-pay forms of fare (monthly or daily passes as opposed to tickets that must be validated or cash). I suppose fare evaders will take advantage of this but just because someone is boarding other than at the front it doesn't necessarily mean they're evading.

You might be referring to other routes that don't allow this (99B is the only exception AFAIK), in which case the likelihood of evasion could be higher. Although I witnessed one time on such a route, a driver catching a rear-boarder in the act, so he announced over the PA that he wasn't leaving the stop until the offender got back off, even though he took out his pass.

Is there a word or phrase missing from your 2nd-last sentence? I think I get your point but I don't think it's worded the way you intended.

sj-roc wrote:

TheLionKing wrote:A lot of people are continuing to evade paying fares despite so called crackdown. Just note the number of people getting on the back of the buses without paying. Translink has been badly mismanaged from day 1. Fare gates initially because they rely on the honour system. How did that work out ?

If you're referring to the 99 B-line, that route specifically allows people to board through all three doors of its articulated buses if they have advance-pay forms of fare (monthly or daily passes as opposed to tickets that must be validated or cash). I suppose fare evaders will take advantage of this but just because someone is boarding other than at the front it doesn't necessarily mean they're evading.

You might be referring to other routes that don't allow this (99B is the only exception AFAIK), in which case the likelihood of evasion could be higher. Although I witnessed one time on such a route, a driver catching a rear-boarder in the act, so he announced over the PA that he wasn't leaving the stop until the offender got back off, even though he took out his pass.

Is there a word or phrase missing from your 2nd-last sentence? I think I get your point but I don't think it's worded the way you intended.

Corrected.

notahomer wrote:

KnowItAll wrote:I use transit about 3 times a year at most. I don't know what all these changes will do, but I expect to still be able to just use cash or credit card to get a ticket. If I used transit regularly, I would just use a monthy buspass. Best thing they could have done is copy Toronto subway, at least the way it was in the 70s. A guy in a cage at every stop. Turnstiles. No transit police.

Compass, phooey

NOPE, cash is a noGO using the compass. I agree cash should still be an option but it won't. Where I think this will really hurt is TOURISM. We're gonna expect tourists in town for a day (or more) to figure out and invest in a compass card to get around?

Why not. Tourists in destinations all over the world do just that. In fact, you can market special options to tourists such as pre-sales before you arrive in country and things like that. Traveling with cash is generally not a good option for tourists for obvious reasons. It may not be quite so germane here in this part of the world where things are generally safe but tourists are often much better to travel without cash or very small amounts. As well, the one or two day tourist is not really into changing to local currency. It invariably leaves you with that unusable, unchangeable amount of coins that eventually ends up in a jar or a tin or thrown away. Money wasted as it were. In any case, tourists are usually pretty good at figuring out how to get about so I doubt the cashless option is going to mess too much with tourism.

I have an Octopus card here in Hong Kong that has my personal age details in it so that I get the right fare on the bus or subway. You can use it in most stores and can top it via your bank but I don't do that. Tourists can get one of these at the airport and then cash it in when they leave HK. I know some who come and go and keep the card as it was just a small deposit in it CAD$7 approx. If it is below that you must top it but you can run it in a final purchase down to near 0.

As we have an office in Shenzhen, China I have a similar card there for bus and subway and other stores.

When I am in Beijing or Shanghai for more than a day or I purchase a temp similar type card for subways, 711 etc. Beats carrying coins.

While the labour costs here are far cheaper the HK MTR Corporation runs a world class organization where they build and get the sky rights above stations for development and added value.

That we set up Sky Train with no fare proof ability is insane.

Sir Purrcival wrote:Why not. Tourists in destinations all over the world do just that. In fact, you can market special options to tourists such as pre-sales before you arrive in country and things like that. Traveling with cash is generally not a good option for tourists for obvious reasons. It may not be quite so germane here in this part of the world where things are generally safe but tourists are often much better to travel without cash or very small amounts. As well, the one or two day tourist is not really into changing to local currency. It invariably leaves you with that unusable, unchangeable amount of coins that eventually ends up in a jar or a tin or thrown away. Money wasted as it were. In any case, tourists are usually pretty good at figuring out how to get about so I doubt the cashless option is going to mess too much with tourism.

I was spoiled in Seattle and I'd like to see us copy what they have done for much of their downtown... busses were free the last time I went there to take in a Seahawks game. You are probably right but I end having to describe parts of our transit to tourists all the time.

All in all I think once the changes happen it'll be fine. I'm sure tourists can/will adapt with relative ease.....

Toppy Vann wrote:I have an Octopus card here in Hong Kong that has my personal age details in it so that I get the right fare on the bus or subway. You can use it in most stores and can top it via your bank but I don't do that. Tourists can get one of these at the airport and then cash it in when they leave HK. I know some who come and go and keep the card as it was just a small deposit in it CAD$7 approx. If it is below that you must top it but you can run it in a final purchase down to near 0.

As we have an office in Shenzhen, China I have a similar card there for bus and subway and other stores.

When I am in Beijing or Shanghai for more than a day or I purchase a temp similar type card for subways, 711 etc. Beats carrying coins.

While the labour costs here are far cheaper the HK MTR Corporation runs a world class organization where they build and get the sky rights above stations for development and added value.

That we set up Sky Train with no fare proof ability is insane.

The Octopus card and the benefits of its system were something TRANSLINK frequently referenced when still in the planning stages of making these changes.

These changes (gates/compass) are going to cause hicups simply because they are new. As sj-roc mentions, I wonder how patient some will be waiting as gates open/shut etc... But we'll get through it. And I truly do believe the data will be a valuable asset to use in terms of planning for proper levels of service.....

For almost 40 years, I lived in the suburbs and the automobile was King! The bus schedule was, except for rush hour, hourly and the connections were such that if you missed a bus at the loop, you were SOL. There was some improvement with the smaller "community " buses, except they did not go near me. We downsized and moved into Vancouver city and the bus service is extraordinary. I use the bus often (maybe 3-4 times a week) and it sure beats the joys of parking, not to mention the cost of parking. Going from home to a Lions game is a breeze now.

I'm sure that there will be great data from the Compass system if (when) it rolls out, but I don't think that it will help the suburb system since the majority of users will still be inside Vancouver city or going to Vancouver since the suburban system is set up to funnel the users into Vancouver.

What I am hoping to come from the data is an alternative option to a expensive tunnel along the Broadway corridor, which is very busy during rush hour (mornings out to UBC and late afternoon back from UBC) but, IMHO, is not overloaded during the majority of the day. The push for a tunnel to UBC seems to me to be more a push for increased density along the line. My empirical observations show a lot of slack in the capacity of that route.

As far as the gates go, there will be a few steps waited when going from bus to Skytrain, but people will adapt.... No cash will be a bigger adjustment...

Caught the Canada Line heading downtown tonight around fivish.... I realize its only one part of the day and its not usually this bad but the line-up to board the 99B-line heading EAST was about thirty people deep (thats line-ups for EACH door!). One line actually extended back into the Station so deep it was almost at the FARE-GATE!

I realize you don't build a SUBWAY based on just getting people around during RUSH-HOUR. BUT, it does seem the Broadway Corridor needs something.

wonder how many people were against the Toronto subway and various extensions over the years. Same with any other major subway system. Always people speaking against it, till after its done, then they use it and appreciate.

So much I heard against the south fraser perimeter hwy, and now, lots of use, no complaining do I hear.

notahomer wrote:Caught the Canada Line heading downtown tonight around fivish.... I realize its only one part of the day and its not usually this bad but the line-up to board the 99B-line heading EAST was about thirty people deep (thats line-ups for EACH door!). One line actually extended back into the Station so deep it was almost at the FARE-GATE!

I realize you don't build a SUBWAY based on just getting people around during RUSH-HOUR. BUT, it does seem the Broadway Corridor needs something.

Yeah I've seen those long queues a few times. If you're just walking east along Bway after coming back to grade from that CL stop, it can be a bit of a fight to get through the 99 crowd.

I wish the rest of the stops along the CL could be as ergonomic as the Bway one. Just one flight of stairs and a gentle slope and you're back at grade. The others seem to take forever getting in and out. Yaletown is the about the worst of them, must be like 100 steps from grade to platform in three flights, but I guess they had to drill down pretty deep to get under the creek.

I recall from the original CL plan that there were supposed to be stops/stations at 57th and 33rd Avenues. Not sure if these will ever be retrofitted into the existing line, but this would represent a stop every nine blocks or so (except 16 between Bway & KingEd) along the Vancouver part of the route.