This I Find Odd

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South Pender
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Was just browsing on the CFL webpage and ran across the following fan poll:

Question: Which veteran GM would you most want leading your team?

Something over 10,000 people responded, and the results were:

Hufnagel: 46%
Popp: 20
Barker: 19
Buono: 8
Taman: 7

Has Wally's star fallen this far? Barker > Buono? Popp > Buono? What the hell is going on here? Have we reached this stage of "what have you done for me lately"? Where's the perspective?
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sj-roc
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The surprising part to me is that Rider fans haven't stuffed the ballot box for their own on this one.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
TheLionKing
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I guess fans have short memory.
South Pender
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sj-roc wrote:The surprising part to me is that Rider fans haven't stuffed the ballot box for their own on this one.
You raise a good point. I don't know how these polls work, and it may be possible to vote more than once. So, it's not a valid result, really, but does seem to point in a certain direction.
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WestCoastJoe
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South Pender wrote:Was just browsing on the CFL webpage and ran across the following fan poll:

Question: Which veteran GM would you most want leading your team?

Something over 10,000 people responded, and the results were:

Hufnagel: 46%
Popp: 20
Barker: 19
Buono: 8
Taman: 7

Has Wally's star fallen this far? Barker > Buono? Popp > Buono? What the hell is going on here? Have we reached this stage of "what have you done for me lately"? Where's the perspective?
BC people are pretty lackadaisical about surveys. What? A survey? Forgedaboudit.

Dunno how many surveys I have not bothered to answer over the years. "Bad time. Gotta go. Bye."

Plus there is a tendency for local fans to eat their young. What have you done for us lately, Mike Gillis? What did you ever do for us, Roberto Luongo? Tar and feather them, and then run them out of town on a rail.

Plus the Lions have not done that well in the last two years. People may feel that Wally has lost a step or two. They might feel our team is not the flagship of the league, as it was for much of Wally's coaching tenure here.

Dunno what the people think, but this result does not surprise me. And the survey means little. Popp has not looked that good since Trestman left. Hawkins for coach??!!**??

Now that it is in front of me, I agree with Hufnagel at the top. And Barker made a great choice in Scott Milanovich. Better methinks than Wally did with Benny? Perhaps. Barker has made a lot of very good moves in Toronto. Ricky Ray. Theft on a grand scale.

I would put Hufnagel and Barker above Wally at this point. Austin as GM may be getting there too.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

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South Pender
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WestCoastJoe wrote: BC people are pretty lackadaisical about surveys. What? A survey? Forgedaboudit.

Dunno how many surveys I have not bothered to answer over the years. "Bad time. Gotta go. Bye."

Plus there is a tendency for local fans to eat their young. What have you done for us lately, Mike Gillis? What did you ever do for us, Roberto Luongo? Tar and feather them, and then run them out of town on a rail.

Plus the Lions have not done that well in the last two years. People may feel that Wally has lost a step or two. They might feel our team is not the flagship of the league, as it was for much of Wally's coaching tenure here.

Dunno what the people think, but this result does not surprise me. And the survey means little. Popp has not looked that good since Trestman left. Hawkins for coach??!!**??

Now that it is in front of me, I agree with Hufnagel at the top. And Barker made a great choice in Scott Milanovich. Better methinks than Wally did with Benny? Perhaps. Barker has made a lot of very good moves in Toronto. Ricky Ray. Theft on a grand scale.

I would put Hufnagel and Barker above Wally at this point. Austin as GM may be getting there too.
Geez, I don't think I'd rate Barker that highly. His body of work in the CFL seems pretty minimal in comparison with Wally's. In 6 seasons as a GM (3 in Calgary and 3 in Toronto), Barker has averaged 9 wins per regular season. And in his 3 seasons in Toronto, things have improved, but he's still under .500. On the other hand, in 20 seasons as a GM (11 in Calgary, 9 in BC), Wally has averaged 11.6 wins per regular season. As for coaching decisions, I think the jury's still out on both Milanovich and Benny. With Hufnagel, I'm not so sure. I guess I might rate him as Wally's equal, although that would be based on a far smaller body of evidence. His regular-season record is very good over his 6 years in Calgary, with an average of 12.33 wins per regular season, but he's had only the one GC win. I think we have to look back a little more than one or two years if we're going to seriously evaluate GMs, but, of course, this CFL.ca thing is just a straw poll of dubious validity. Still, it seems to reflect, in my opinion, extreme myopia on the part of the responders. Or maybe that's just how most fans are. Or maybe I'm giving Wally too much credit! Not trying to be argumentative here, just my $.02.
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WestCoastJoe
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South Pender wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote: BC people are pretty lackadaisical about surveys. What? A survey? Forgedaboudit.

Dunno how many surveys I have not bothered to answer over the years. "Bad time. Gotta go. Bye."

Plus there is a tendency for local fans to eat their young. What have you done for us lately, Mike Gillis? What did you ever do for us, Roberto Luongo? Tar and feather them, and then run them out of town on a rail.

Plus the Lions have not done that well in the last two years. People may feel that Wally has lost a step or two. They might feel our team is not the flagship of the league, as it was for much of Wally's coaching tenure here.

Dunno what the people think, but this result does not surprise me. And the survey means little. Popp has not looked that good since Trestman left. Hawkins for coach??!!**??

Now that it is in front of me, I agree with Hufnagel at the top. And Barker made a great choice in Scott Milanovich. Better methinks than Wally did with Benny? Perhaps. Barker has made a lot of very good moves in Toronto. Ricky Ray. Theft on a grand scale.

I would put Hufnagel and Barker above Wally at this point. Austin as GM may be getting there too.
Geez, I don't think I'd rate Barker that highly. His body of work in the CFL seems pretty minimal in comparison with Wally's. In 6 seasons as a GM (3 in Calgary and 3 in Toronto), Barker has averaged 9 wins per regular season. And in his 3 seasons in Toronto, things have improved, but he's still under .500. On the other hand, in 20 seasons as a GM (11 in Calgary, 9 in BC), Wally has averaged 11.6 wins per regular season. As for coaching decisions, I think the jury's still out on both Milanovich and Benny. With Hufnagel, I'm not so sure. I guess I might rate him as Wally's equal, although that would be based on a far smaller body of evidence. His regular-season record is very good over his 6 years in Calgary, with an average of 12.33 wins per regular season, but he's had only the one GC win. I think we have to look back a little more than one or two years if we're going to seriously evaluate GMs, but, of course, this CFL.ca thing is just a straw poll of dubious validity. Still, it seems to reflect, in my opinion, extreme myopia on the part of the responders. Or maybe that's just how most fans are. Or maybe I'm giving Wally too much credit! Not trying to be argumentative here, just my $.02.
No argument from me. Your view stands unchallenged. Just stating me view.

I had reservations about Barker when he was in Calgary. But IMO he has shot some bulls eyes in Toronto. Hiring Milanovich seems most astute to me. I don't think the jury is out on Milanovich, certainly not with me. And IMO the selection of a Head Coach is the most important decision a GM makes. I credit Barker for the all time trade acquiring Ricky Ray. Barker is even with Wally in Grey Cup wins since 2011.

It seems to me Wally made a safe, comfortable choice in Mike Benevides, his protege. Our results are middle of the road since 2011, when we had pretty much a miracle run to the Cup. And following our Cup win in 2006, starting perhaps in 2008, we drifted for a few years.

Hufnagel at the top? Yes.

I have to say that it seems like I agree with those 10,000 people in the survey that you say have extreme myopia. LOL Yes, there is some of that "what have you done for me lately."

Popp not so high anymore IMO. Hawkins was a disaster. And maybe Popp got lucky with Trestman. But Popp has a body of work to compare with pretty much any GM in the CFL.

As mentioned I would put Kent Austin in the mix as a top football executive (and coach), even with his minimal body of work.

It seems people were asked which GM they would like to lead their team, at this time. They are not voting on lifetime achievement. Wally wins that.

This reminds me of the old Ford Chevy debate. Tons of info on both sides. As it happened, I switched to Japanese cars about that time. OK, I had a Ford truck for a while there too.

Just IMO ... And I certainly don't expect to change anyone's point of view. I will side with the survey for the most part.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

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sj-roc
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I think one also has to consider the exact wording of the question: "Which veteran GM would you most want leading your team?"

To me, this seems to imply, "who's the best GM right now?", as opposed to, "who's been the most successful over his entire career?" If the question were the latter, then I think this poll result would indeed be underrating WB. Maybe he's still being underrated as it is, but not as much as in the other case at any rate. On the other hand, we also don't know whether most respondents really took more of a right-now angle over an all-time angle. The perils of non-scientific polling. I suspect the league folks who devised the poll aren't even all that concerned about the results but rather more interested in site traffic stats.
Sports can be a peculiar thing. When partaking in fiction, like a book or movie, we adopt a "Willing Suspension of Disbelief" for enjoyment's sake. There's a similar force at work in sports: "Willing Suspension of Rationality". If you doubt this, listen to any conversation between rival team fans. You even see it among fans of the same team. Fans argue over who's the better QB or goalie, and selectively cite stats that support their views while ignoring those that don't.
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wally was the new Mathews.

huff looks to be the new wally
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sj-roc wrote:The surprising part to me is that Rider fans haven't stuffed the ballot box for their own on this one.
That's astonishing for sure. I'm with you on that one SJ. Wally being listed so far down is less surprising to me than Taman not being at the top thanks to Riders fans love of any CFL poll, especially with a Rider option to blindly stuff. They must've all been out ice fishing or at a curling bonspiel.

Personally I have no use for these polls and ones like the different Team 1040 polls. I put them on ignore as all one needs to do is look at the question and options, consider the audience, and can pretty much figure out what the results will be. It's a rare occasion to be surprised by the results. This is one such occasion.
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David
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Maybe there were a lot of ballot stuffers from the Banks clan in Florida and Georgia? :wink:


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sj-roc wrote:I think one also has to consider the exact wording of the question: "Which veteran GM would you most want leading your team?"

To me, this seems to imply, "who's the best GM right now?", as opposed to, "who's been the most successful over his entire career?" If the question were the latter, then I think this poll result would indeed be underrating WB. Maybe he's still being underrated as it is, but not as much as in the other case at any rate. On the other hand, we also don't know whether most respondents really took more of a right-now angle over an all-time angle. The perils of non-scientific polling. I suspect the league folks who devised the poll aren't even all that concerned about the results but rather more interested in site traffic stats.
I think you're right about the interpretation made by most respondents of right now. And looked at this way, one could, I guess, look at who's been successful in the last year or two. On the other hand, if I were to take the question, as stated, seriously, I think I'd rate a candidate's overall track record above only their most recent accomplishments. The right now view, however, makes Popp's 2nd-place position look strange. In his case, a long-term view of his body of work would place him high on the list. Just a little hard to figure, but, as we all know, such polls are far from valid.
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You guys are way over thinking this........like Hambone, I put no credence in these polls as they are nothing more than popularity contests.......nothing to do with the realities of football.
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Shi Zi Mi wrote:You guys are way over thinking this........like Hambone, I put no credence in these polls as they are nothing more than popularity contests.......nothing to do with the realities of football.
Who in their right mind has the time to enter this type of contest multiple times to gain the satisfaction of putting their team/club/player over the top? It makes little sense for the rational thinker to enter once, knowing the end result will have some fanatic(s) punching away on their keyboard 100's of times to influence the outcome. I think more to the point the fanbase that doesn't submit a vote or has the least amount of votes actually shows true intellect.
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IMO SP, all sports is a "what have you done for me lately" game and what has Wally done as GM over the last 2 years? Wally was never an X's and O's guy and the game is changing again, and it might be passing Wally by altogether. Our coaching staff has been unimpressive over the last couple of years and our finding of Import talent has seemed to fall off the face of the earth. This year we host a GC, and Wally has done VERY little to this point to have us do much more than fight to be more than a .500 team.

The draft is approaching and our FA camps have started, so there is time to turn things around, but you have to approach Wally this season with a little skepticism based on his last 2 years.

And think about this...with FA, we lost out on a lot of players to other teams when Vancouver and BC have a lot going for them...Wally may have dug himself a bit of a hole here.
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