Leos Talent Belies Season Record

[Blitz]

LEOS TALENT BELIES SEASON RECORD

One thing is becoming more and more obvious. Our Leos talent and depth has not been recognized this season as much as it should be, due to our record.
An offensive line mis-experiment to start the season, an offence without an anti-blitz package, some poor personell decisions by our coaching staff, and a lack of in-game coaching adjustments have resulted in a 6-11 record that easily could have been 11-6 at this point.

There are some very impressive players on this squad and our team record has meant that their play has not been recognized as much as if we had a winning record. A few thoughts.

Veterans: Vets-Korey Banks, Sherko Rasouli, Geroy Simon, Dante Marsh, Davis Sanchez, Paul McCallum have enjoyed excellent seasons. Jon Hameister Rees has also played well. Yarichuk has been a force on special teams.

Rookies: There are so many impressive first year players on this squad, including Stanley Franks, Solomin Eliminian, Kalif Mitchell, Jovan Ofafioye, Adam Leonard, Andrew Harris, David Hyland, Jerome Messam, Black, Yonus Davis.

Depth: Our Leos team has a lot of depth that has not been featured yet. Some promising players include Sean Whyte, Joe Henderson, Josef Gesse, Justin Sorenson, Jesse Newman, Shawn Gore, Jamal Lee, Jeremy Geathers, Andrew Jones, Cauchy Muamb, Hamid Mahmoudi, Akeem Foster.

This Leo team is much more talented than our record. Inexperience has been a factor but the biggest factors this season, which caused us to get off to a poor start and losing games we should have won were 1) the offensive line mis-experiment 2) a lack of anti-blitz strategies for the first 2/3 of the season 3) rotating quarterbacks 4) lack of in-game adjustments 5) penalties and undisciplined play-a reflection of coaching or lack therof 6) misjudgment of personell and poor use of personel during the first half of the season.

This Leo squad is capable of beating anyone, talent wise. Calgary has only lost 4 games this season and two of those were at home to our Leos. We played Montreal tough early in the season. We haven’t lost games due to a lack of talent on our roster. This is a team, if well coached, can compete and beat any CFL team.

[B.C.FAN]

This Leo squad is capable of beating anyone, talent wise. Calgary has only lost 4 games this season and two of those were at home to our Leos. We played Montreal tough early in the season. We haven’t lost games due to a lack of talent on our roster. This is a team, if well coached, can compete and beat any CFL team.

Agreed. I've felt all year that the second half of the season would be much better than the first half as the overhauled roster settled down. I've also felt confident all season that the Lions have the talent to win the Grey Cup. Admittedly, neither half of the season has gone as well as I had expected and the Lions must still fight for a playoff spot, but they've proved that they're capable of beating anyone. The next test is a team they haven't beaten: Saskatchewan. It should be fun.

[WestCoastJoe]

Yes, I agree that our talent is top level.

Kudos to Shivers for the import side. Also our NI talent is looking improved. Kudos to McAvoy and Benevides for that.

Olafioye. Black. Robertson, good FA signing. Davis , fixed the Robert Jordan blindness. Leonard. Aluminum. Henderson, perhaps. Franks. Reddick. Hyland. Mitchell. Brown, good FA signing.

For me, not as impressed with Pittman, K Williams, good but not great IMO, Craig.

We did not find that rush end we need so much in the CFL. Baggs is a killer now in Hamilton.

I can't help but wonder if we missed out on the guy we had, Brandon Sharpe. Whatever. We have haven't found the guy we need yet. Spoiled by Wilson, Wake and Foley no doubt.

Plus we acquired Gore, Foster, Newman, McGrath, Muamba, Mahmoudi, Goese, Messam. That is a load of NI talent.

[Toppy Vann]

This is one year that coaching can be credited with tallying up some losses.

Also discipline - lack of - is the first year in recent history that contributed to losses and injuries to starters (PJackson broken jaw rendering him less effective).

The offensive line decisions off season were a very key factor in the losses early on. Wally and Dorazio are the first football coaches in history to believe that a non-set offensive line is no issue and they can just plug and play.

Offensive predictability (less so yesterday to open catching the Stamps in a blitz) has hurt too.

[Blitz]

This is one year that coaching can be credited with tallying up some losses.

Also discipline - lack of - is the first year in recent history that contributed to losses and injuries to starters (PJackson broken jaw rendering him less effective).

The offensive line decisions off season were a very key factor in the losses early on. Wally and Dorazio are the first football coaches in history to believe that a non-set offensive line is no issue and they can just plug and play.

Offensive predictability (less so yesterday to open catching the Stamps in a blitz) has hurt too.

The offensive line mis-experiment still boggles my mind. It was almost bizzare, using an import at right guard, moving our best guard in Sherko to right tackle, using Jones at left guard to start the season, converting a former defensive lineman into a starting left tackle...a critical position..it was like someone had a bad acid trip from the 60''s to come up with the decisions we made with our offensive line to begin this season.

Thankfully, for this second half of the season some common sense has returned. Hamiester-Rees and Sherko are playing well at guard, McGrath has been steady, and Jovan has been incredible to swith to the left side tackle postiion...not an easy transtion, especially for a rookie who has played the right side all his amateur career.

We gotta integrate Newman into this lineup....either at center or rigth tackle..the guy is just too good to be lauguishing on the bench.

However, back to the main concept of this thread...as Phillips said the other day..the talent on this Leos team is so much higher than our record...and some poor coaching decsisions have played a signifcant role in our record. This is a team, if we can get our offence really clicking, that could knock anyone off in the playoffs. Its a very fast, very athletic, very talented group of football players.

[TheLionKing]

If you move Newman to right tackle, then what do you do with McGrath ? He's a natural right tackle

[WestCoastJoe]

If you move Newman to right tackle, then what do you do with McGrath ? He's a natural right tackle

I like McGrath. Not as physical as a guy like Jimenez, but unlikely to roll up a defender's leg either.

Has Newman worked out at centre? Time for Reid to retire and drink coffee through a straw full time, although he has filled in nicely in the absence of Dean Valli.

[Blitz]

If you move Newman to right tackle, then what do you do with McGrath ? He's a natural right tackle

I like McGrath. Not as physical as a guy like Jimenez, but unlikely to roll up a defender's leg either.

Has Newman worked out at centre? Time for Reid to retire and drink coffee through a straw full time, although he has filled in nicely in the absence of Dean Valli.

Except for the leg cramps, with Winnipeg coming back in the game!! The guy has been a media darlin' lately...with no CP interviews taking away the spotlight.

Angus Reid has been a soldier and he handled the initial demotion this season well, at least publically. With Valli down for the season Angus greatest strength is his experience and in calling out line blocking assignments..something that Valli was leaning but is not inthe same league as Anugs in this area.

Antiicpating that Angus and Brent Johnson may not even be with us next season or that it will be likely their last season if they do return. It will be a new era, in many ways, with a few vets left like Phillips, Marsh, Simon, Paris Jackson, Korey Banks, and Jarious Jackson (if we keep him) still remaining to provide experience and leadership.

However there will be opportunity for new leaders to emerge. I can see a guy like David Hyland eventually stepping into a leadership role, in time, along with Eliminian on defense and a guy like Hameister-Rees on offence.

[Gerry]

I agree on the talent.

I also think it takes time to get that talent to some state of cohesiveness as a team. Football is more complex than hockey or soccer.

Time for our coaches and players. Patience on the part of the fans.

[Lionheart]

The number of times I've banged my head on the wall has definitely caused me to become a patient yes.

[David]

We did not find that rush end we need so much in the CFL. Baggs is a killer now in Hamilton.

In fairness, I think we did find that rush end. His name was Jeremy Geathers who lasted part of one game before blowing out his knee. Jonathan Brown was amazed at the quickness of his first step. Not sure why Sharpe wasn't at least given a chance the way Craig was but regardless, it is an area that needs to be addressed.

Also discipline - lack of - is the first year in recent history that contributed to losses and injuries to starters (PJackson broken jaw rendering him less effective).

No disrespect, but why do you continually harp on this incident? It was simply a scrap between teammates. Unfortunate yes, but no big deal. It's really not all that uncommon in football (a busted jaw is a bit of an extreme outcome perhaps, but these are big boys who settled a dispute sans helmet and pads like most altercations). Ironically, I would also argue that Paris Jackson has been MORE effective since this incident than before.

I think you're trying to establish a cause/effect between the Messam/Jackson altercation and the team's record this season. I'm not buying it.

Look at the '94 Leos. By all accounts they were one of the most dysfunctional Lions team ever. Things got so bad that Lui had to step in to prevent a locker room fracas one day....and that team won the Grey Cup! Also, think back to 2004 in Ottawa when a scrap between teammates occurred on the team bus during Grey Cup week (IIRC it involved one of our O-linemen - maybe O'Lester Pope or Marques McFadden).

DH

[Blitz]

We did not find that rush end we need so much in the CFL. Baggs is a killer now in Hamilton.

In fairness, I think we did find that rush end. His name was Jeremy Geathers who lasted part of one game before blowing out his knee. Jonathan Brown was amazed at the quickness of his first step. Not sure why Sharpe wasn't at least given a chance the way Craig was but regardless, it is an area that needs to be addressed.

Also discipline - lack of - is the first year in recent history that contributed to losses and injuries to starters (PJackson broken jaw rendering him less effective).

No disrespect, but why do you continually harp on this incident? It was simply a scrap between teammates. Unfortunate yes, but no big deal. It's really not all that uncommon in football (a busted jaw is a bit of an extreme outcome perhaps, but these are big boys who settled a dispute sans helmet and pads like most altercations). Ironically, I would also argue that Paris Jackson has been MORE effective since this incident than before.

I think you're trying to establish a cause/effect between the Messam/Jackson altercation and the team's record this season. I'm not buying it.

Look at the '94 Leos. By all accounts they were one of the most dysfunctional Lions team ever. Things got so bad that Lui had to step in to prevent a locker room fracas one day....and that team won the Grey Cup! Also, think back to 2004 in Ottawa when a scrap between teammates occurred on the team bus during Grey Cup week (IIRC it involved one of our O-linemen - maybe O'Lester Pope or Marques McFadden).

DH

The word is that our Leos coaching staff is very high on Geathers and no one we've brought in has stood the test of comparison.

As to Toppy mentioning the fight between Messam and Jackson (in which Jackson got his broken jaw), yes fights happen between teamates and arguments too. However, Casey Printers was released due to having an argument with Wilson on the sidelines and then carried it into the locker room. Yes, the initial argument between Printers and Wilson took place at the end of a game, on the sidelines, and TSN picked it up but it was only a verbal argument. It appears inconsistent to release only one player (Printers based upon the incident) since both argued, no differently than Messam and Jackson both threw punches and someone threw the first one.

Arguments and (and even the occasional fight)take place in football all the time..between players in training camp, during practices, in the locker room, and within games. We've seen Simon chew on Buck on the sideline in a previous season. It just seems like it was over the top to release Printers based upon what happened...consequences..yes..and Wilson kept arguing too...but based upon the incident Toppy mentions and other incidents that have occured, the Printers release is very inconsistent, based upon previous incidents.

I recognize that you support Wally...David..but I believe the release was an overreaction at the time, coming off the Winnipeg loss...and Wally likely had a feeling of wanting to reestablish control over players behavior to add to the situation.

If your argument holds that the '04 Lions were dysfunctional, as were the 2004 Leos at times as well and successful, then there was no need to release a quarterback that we were paying for the rest of the season, that had experience, that had the highest quarterback efficinecy on the team, for an argument on the sidelines and locker room, in a heated situation, right after an overtime loss. Its academic now, in terms of Printers needing ACL surgery, unless that Printers knee injury, must worse that hardly anyone knew, was a factor in Wally releasing him.

[joe kapp22]

If you move Newman to right tackle, then what do you do with McGrath ? He's a natural right tackle

I like McGrath. Not as physical as a guy like Jimenez, but unlikely to roll up a defender's leg either.

Has Newman worked out at centre? Time for Reid to retire and drink coffee through a straw full time, although he has filled in nicely in the absence of Dean Valli.

Newman can take Hamstier -Reeses' slot with JHR moving to 6th olinemen.

We will need a new Center, unless they really have bought into Valle.

[Toppy Vann]

Do the math David, that was '94. This is 2010. A lot of seasons past.

I disagree with the 'fighting' in the dressing room is all that common in good teams. I had long term employees from the CFL working for me and they didn't see that stuff and they did not much like it when it happened. It is disruptive in a our a team and is divisive. But the key point.

Let me put out a different scenario (and I am not suggesting the LIons should have wasted a player doing this). If Wally had cut Messam and trashed him for doing the intolerable (and maybe fined Jackson) and ran him out of town as a disruptive force who has not contributed much, the board probably would be like some do with Printers - start calling the guy down.

Wally has let discipline slide this season and their team lost directly due to discipline. The Stamps game might have been a loss to and you look at one penalty where the Stamps get life to score a TD on it due to a sill personal foul.

Do you honestly believe that PJackson was able to perform as he might have if not had his jaw wired? You have to ask - should he have been playing and is that more of the Lions pushing injured guys. How many players play that hurt? Point here is that this player could not have been on top of his game given the pain he had to be in and the fear of a huge hit in the face.

Discipline is hurting this outfit. Wally is normally more on top of that than he sounds this season. It is a bit like parenting if you start to tolerate a lot of small minor discipline issues and don't correct the small stuff and set some standards you get more of what we are seeing this year - young and old guys taking bad penalties and not worrying about when and where.

One of the reasons nice guys fail to be great HC is that they are too nice and cut too much slack to players. Wally is not in the category of overly nice. The best HCs have that edge to them that speaks volumes without words. Basically it is players know that on this team if you take a bad penalty you might be on the way to the airport. Coaches like are legends. Coaches too nice are gone soon back to the ranks of assistants.

I was playing pick up hockey with a former Maple Leaf organization player years ago and gave him a blind drop pass. After he mentioned my "Syracuse" pass for him and told the story of Punch Imlach. He hated that. It was called that as a second pass like that and you'd be on the bus to Syracuse. Discipline and legendary coach.

[WestCoastJoe]

We did not find that rush end we need so much in the CFL. Baggs is a killer now in Hamilton.

In fairness, I think we did find that rush end. His name was Jeremy Geathers who lasted part of one game before blowing out his knee. Jonathan Brown was amazed at the quickness of his first step. Not sure why Sharpe wasn't at least given a chance the way Craig was but regardless, it is an area that needs to be addressed.

DH

The search goes on. The bar is high. Wilson, Wake and Foley.

The word is that our Leos coaching staff is very high on Geathers and no one we've brought in has stood the test of comparison.

They made a quick assessment. No stats. Injured first game. But he does have a good reputation coming in. I never saw enough playing time to make an assessment of my own. For what it's worth ... LOL

If you move Newman to right tackle, then what do you do with McGrath ? He's a natural right tackle

I like McGrath. Not as physical as a guy like Jimenez, but unlikely to roll up a defender's leg either.

Has Newman worked out at centre? Time for Reid to retire and drink coffee through a straw full time, although he has filled in nicely in the absence of Dean Valli.

Newman can take Hamstier -Reeses' slot with JHR moving to 6th olinemen.

We will need a new Center, unless they really have bought into Valle.

I like JonHR very much at left guard. Bigger and stronger than Newman IMO. But Newman is also very capable.

Between Valli and Newman we might find the long term successor to Reid. Possibly even Sorensen.

At times Sherko has called the signals for the O Line. Easier than the centre doing it, just from the physical stance alone.

Lots of O Line talent now. I really like McGrath. No fuss. No muss. No great physicality, but very effective.

Olafioye has stayed out of trouble too, at left tackle. Amazing. I do fear that if Olafioye develops as he might, we will lose him to the NFL.