Bullet of a throw.......

[TheLionKing]

Man, I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. Do people have that big of a hard on for Buck that they want to completely trash Jarious in a game where our "brilliant coaching staff" chooses to run the ball 9 FRIGGIN' TIMES WITH THE CFL LEADING RUSHER?! Yeah, it's all JJ's fault. It's his fault that our play calling was abysmal and it's his fault that our defence decided to give Matt Dominguez a 7 yard head start on every play.

JJ obviously didn't play well, but he wasn't really given a lot of help if you ask me. We talked earlier in the week about what we need to do in order to help Jarious out and almost everybody said to run the damn football. I don't know about you, but running the ball 9 times isn't really my idea of running the ball. We used play action which was nice to see, but when it's clear that the run isn't part of your game plan then how effective can you expect it to be?

Remember that we were playing the 'Riders who are probably the 2nd best team in the league and a very tough team to play when fully healthy, not the easiest situation to be in for your 1st start. Jarious didn't look any worse than Dave and Buck have been this year and yet by the sounds of some people here you'd think that Jarious was the worst QB ever.

Jarious hasn't been the only guy to force passes that end up in INTs. Am I the only one who remembers a certain Leo QB locking on to his first read and throwing into double coverage only to see his pass get picked off and a drive stalled deep in enemy (Hamilton) territory?

The play calling wasn't JJ's fault but he certainly didn't do himself any favours by missing open receivers or bouncing the football off the turf in front of his receivers.

[Rammer]

Man, I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread. Do people have that big of a hard on for Buck that they want to completely trash Jarious in a game where our "brilliant coaching staff" chooses to run the ball 9 FRIGGIN' TIMES WITH THE CFL LEADING RUSHER?! Yeah, it's all JJ's fault. It's his fault that our play calling was abysmal and it's his fault that our defence decided to give Matt Dominguez a 7 yard head start on every play.

JJ obviously didn't play well, but he wasn't really given a lot of help if you ask me. We talked earlier in the week about what we need to do in order to help Jarious out and almost everybody said to run the damn football. I don't know about you, but running the ball 9 times isn't really my idea of running the ball. We used play action which was nice to see, but when it's clear that the run isn't part of your game plan then how effective can you expect it to be?

Remember that we were playing the 'Riders who are probably the 2nd best team in the league and a very tough team to play when fully healthy, not the easiest situation to be in for your 1st start. Jarious didn't look any worse than Dave and Buck have been this year and yet by the sounds of some people here you'd think that Jarious was the worst QB ever.

Jarious hasn't been the only guy to force passes that end up in INTs. Am I the only one who remembers a certain Leo QB locking on to his first read and throwing into double coverage only to see his pass get picked off and a drive stalled deep in enemy (Hamilton) territory?

The play calling wasn't JJ's fault but he certainly didn't do himself any favours by missing open receivers or bouncing the football off the turf in front of his receivers.

From what we have seen of JJ in the past, his flat throws have caused him problems in both the INT and knockdowns at the LoS. He deserves the nickname "Rope", because other than a rope, his arsenal is limited. You can see that errors on throws come from not having the exact proper footwork. If he has to adjust his throwing motion at all, the ball goes up or down. The biggest problem with JJ, is that he is 30 and it is tough to teach an old dog new tricks at this point, so how do you win in the short term with him? Well we have a good RB that wears down the opposition in Joe Smith, we have to use him moreso. While throwing early wasn't a bad idea, as the Riders were looking for the run, you have to feel the time when the Riders weren't respecting the run at all, and take advantage of it.

[sports & stuff----ric]

I thought we would still win with jj playing and all the injuries. Running the ball 9 times was stupid. that said tell me how many teams in all of football would win a game with there 3rd string qb?? probably 0

[Rammer]

I thought we would still win with jj playing and all the injuries. Running the ball 9 times was stupid. that said tell me how many teams in all of football would win a game with there 3rd string qb?? probably 0

Teams have, but it depends upon your opponent. Butler won a couple games last season, and Calgary had a win or two in the Dunigan era they had no business winning. I think each time though that Hamilton was the opposition.

[sj-roc]

Re: All this talk about JJ throwing on a rope -- there was that road game we lost last year (@Cgy?) where he overthrew the prevent D on a last play hail mary. I kinda remember some arc on that ball. So what happened between then and now?

[Sir Purrcival]

With all due respect to all the Jarius Jackson fans out there, I'm not impressed by his performance tonight. On the positives he read the blitz and threw to the right receivers, and was able to scramble out of some sticky situation. On the negative he continues to demonstrate what he has demonstrated in his limited playing time. He continues to miss wide open receivers, either underthrowing and overthrowing. He has no touch on his passes. His passes were on a rope all night. Several times receivers had to go on their hand and knees to scoop up passes from the turf. A couple of his interceptions wouldn't have happened if he put a little air on his pass and let the receiver run under it, instead of gunning it in their.

I agree with this assessment. The most distressing part was how many times this guy under threw a 5 yard out. No touch is the right way to say it. He looked completely out of sync tonight and the abandonment of the run game didn't help the situation. The play calling tonight was befuddling at times. Why throw a hitch to Simon in the 2nd Q on your own 10 yard line with 20 seconds on the clock, only to kneel down the following play? A pass that could be picked when you are trying to run out the clock??? On the other hand, we have our loss and now maybe that can act as a catalyst for some change. It is hard to complain when you play poorly but still win. Well, today, we saw poor play and it resulted in a loss.

the intent of that simple play is to get lots of blocking in front of Simon since the rider D should be playing off and hope he can move it closer to midfield. If that happens you have chance to go for a play to put you in FG range, if not. you kill the clock and take a knee with no further damage done.

That may have been the intent but a play like that with the yardage needed would easily take 10 to 15 seconds and they are seldom that effective. On the other hand, a db jumping the route could just stroll in for another TD. Wrong place on the field and wrong part of the Q. to try that IMO. The general point I was making however was that the play calling seemed confused and misdirected at many points in the game.

[Don Miller]

JJ needs to learn to put touch on his passes. He had recievers open and could not get it in there because he tried to aim the ball in there like a dart. Last week against Calgary he was lucky he didn't get two intercepted. He has potential but needs to learn how to read defenses and throw to the reciever. He is a typical ex nfl qb.

[Blitz]

I thought we would still win with jj playing and all the injuries. Running the ball 9 times was stupid. that said tell me how many teams in all of football would win a game with there 3rd string qb?? probably 0

I still find it shocking! At least last season, when Buck had his first starts, we had some quick throws for him, lowered the number of plays in the game for him to execute, and had a game plan that provided him with a better chance of success.

Jarious's completion rate is the lowest of our three quarterbacks and we should expect that. However, going into this game Jarious had the highest quarterback efficiency rating of our quarterbacks at 86.5. Dickenson had a quarterback efficiency rating of 81.7 before he was injured while Buck has a quarterback efficiency rating of 61.0.

Jarious has a lot to work on...no question!! He needs to develop much better touch on his short game and needs to also be able to be able to know when to gun the football and when to put a little more arc on the football. However, it's important to be fair. This is a guy who hasn't started a game in over four years. That is a hell of a lot of rust. Buck has a lot less rust on him than Jarious and has much more CFL playing reps than Jarious does and that has to be considered in this discussion.

Aiming a football, rather than throwing it normally is something that happens when a quarterback is putting too much pressure on himself. I remember Buck aiming a ball to a wide open Brent Johnson last season that was so slow that Johnson thought it was never going to get there. Different situation for sure but also is an example of what can happen to a quarterback when he's pressing.

Jarious didn't help his own cause last night. The interceptions happened with our play calling putting it on his arm and ability to read a Riders team that was mixing up it's coverages. You just don'tt have a third string quarterback throw the football that often in his first CFL start. We don't have Dickenson throw the football that often, with all his experience and especially not against today's CFL defenses whose priority is to stop the pass.

Jarius also had to deal with a poorly designed game plan that would have been more difficult to execute for any of our quarterbacks this season... as our passing attack has been the worst in the league. His complete lack of any starting experience made it even more difficult for him to execute that plan. He had two rookie receivers to throw to and a former go to receiver in Geroy Simon who has had his early challenges this season in getting open.

Most thought we went into this game as underdogs. The Riders were coming off a huge win and wanting revenge for our victory against them in Regina. They were also inspired to knock off last season's Grey Cup champs in our Leos and a team that was undefeated. Lots of reasons for the Riders to be motivated plus the knowledge that they have been able to beat us under the Dome a number of times and a team that we have a losing record to under the Wally era. Heck, the Riders have historically caused all kinds of grief for us when wev'e had Dickenson starting outside of last year's playoff game.

Add to that we're missing Otis Floyd again, Banks who is so important to our secondary doing the things it likes to do is out, Glover is out of position, Mitchell, a raw rookie is starting his second game, and even tougher we have to put Washington at the tough short side halfback spot. Then Knowlton has to play a new position. Throw in a quarterback with his first CFL start and first pro start in four seasons.

Smart coaching recognizes that Regina smells blood. What would any half wise man do? He'd try to keep the defense off the field by running the football, focus on ball possession, and run a offence that focuses on not turning the football over... to provide the best chance to win!

The Riders put together a smart game plan. They used their running attack wisely, minimized offensive turnvovers with conservative play calling in their passing attack to not allow our defense to create the turnovers that have led to our wins this season.

So what do we do? We don't run the football, use play action a lot without the threat of the run, use a ton of formations and passing plays, and throw a quarterback in there who isn't given the opportunity to use his strengths as a rollout quarterback, with the threat of running and throwing. No, instead we try to make him throw out of the pocket almost all game, focusing on the weakest area of our entire team-our passing attack.....and it has been a headache so far this year for all our quarterbacks. Heck, Dickenson started 4-12 in game 2 against Edmonton. Also, for the first time this year a Leos quarterback had no big turnover help from our defense.

Last time we played the Riders and beat them in Regina we threw the football 24 times. In our last big win against Calgary, we threw the football 21 times!

A number of Lionbackers posters wisely said we needed to run the football and simplify the game for Jarious. Yes, Jarious throws the football on a rope. Yes, he struggles with touch in his short passing game. He can stick some passes in there that our other quarterbacks can't do but he also can't make certain throws at this stage that Dickenson and Buck can! Perhaps he never will! Perhaps he would learn, perhaps he wouldn't! However, our coaches knew, going into this game, Jarious strengths and weaknesses. They've watched him for a long time now!

The object of this game was not to turn Jarious into a future starting quarterback for our Leos. The object of this game was to try to win it while giving Buck a chance to heal and Dickenson another week to attempt to recover from his concussion. Jarious is not going to be our future starting quarterback, except in a short term pinch like last night. His main job, as a third string quarterback, is to come into a game as a reliever.

We did nothing in this game to utilize Jarious' strengths and minimize his weaknesses. We did nothing in this game to take advantage of our present offensive strengths and to minimize our offensive weaknesses at present.

If we had established Joe Smith early with the run, we could have taken advantage of Regina's ends crashing down and Jarious could have pulled the football out of Smith's bread basket and rolled him outside with some simple reads. We could have helped Jarious understand that Regina was playing an extra defensive back on our wide side. We could have helped Jarious by having our receivers run some post/corners with the Riders playing a safety deep in the middle all game.

We could have done a lot of things in this game to not only provide Jarious with a much better chance of success and we could have done a number of things offensively to give our offence a better chance to move the football.

Comparing Dickenson with Buck or comparing Buck with Jarious or comparing Jarious with Dickenson is like comparing an apple, an orange, and a pear.

Jarious made some very good throws and some very bad ones. Jumping all over Jarious is easy! However, he was NOT the most responsible for letting our team down and not giving us a good chance to win, even though we had a depleted lineup! Our coaches are most responsible for doing that!!

[sports & stuff----ric]

no question the game plan was poor. Most of the passes seemed to be going well down field with not much success. Now theres nothing better than going down the field 15/20 /25 yds with a sharp Qb, but they should have been doing more short stuff to help jj out. More dump passes out of the backfield, screens. maybe a draw play to smith. Once again the pitch out to smith is gone. How about geroy crossing over the middle 5 to 10 yds down field and let him run with it? Your teling me geroy cant also run a 8 td out pattern and be open almost eveytime if the balls deliverd properly?
Them when they cheat up , you fake the out and burn them deep!

[TheLionKing]

We got outcoached in this game. Period.

[Luke]

Unfortunately yes. I hope that doesn't become a trend. I hope we see a better game plan and, just as importantly, better execution this week than any previous week.

Hopefully the anger and disappointment that we heard from Kelly Bates and Angus Reid after the loss to Saskatchewan was shared by their teammates. Maybe that will be the starting point for getting our offense on track.

Maybe the players need to sit down with Kruck and Dorazio, and talk things out, because as some have noted, the players seem to lack confidence in the calls being made. Thats something that needs to be corrected or rebuilt right away.

Since Wally Buono arrived in 2003, thats something that the players have never really questioned. The players have consistently put over the job that Wally and his coaching staff have done getting them prepared every week, and providing them with a game plan that gives them the best opportunity to win football games (particularly last year, but years previous to that as well). Its a major contributor to your confidence as a football team, and also to the particular units on the team, offense, defense and special teams.

[Toppy Vann]

JJ is not done here yet - quite frankly all 3 QBs are needed as the Lions have proven each year.

As to being outcoached. I was thinking that during the game as the Lions were letting it slip away and there were no offensive adjustments to get things going. We watched them as they sent Buck to the dressing room to get ready late in the 3rd Q and given their statements post-game that he couldn't go that day, it seems bizarre in retrospect that they'd go through the motions of making that change if he couldn't play. Did that make JJ even more shaken? It shouldn't at the pro level but who knows if it had an impact. At times it is better to show the guy that no matter what he has to play and fix up whatever messes he has made himself.

The play calling would not be an issue if JJ had not tossed those INTs and missed the open guys. Coaches at the pro level have the right to expect the easy stuff to be done and the ball to be protected. That stuff is execution by the athlete himself.

What the coaches are doing to make the QB comfortable out there is not known by me but it is true that some coaches do a better job of making his guy at QB feeling confident and assured. Part is their commitment and belief in the player and part is the play calling that picks stuff the QB is comfortable with.

Blitz has noted ad finitum how the Lions could utilize the FB better and double tight ends to mix it up a bit but if the guy pulling the trigger on the offence messes up a simple toss, no formation is going to work. How about a few trick plays, like a reverse or two or Lyle Green out of the backfield.

As to the players sitting down with the off coordinators, it depends what the topic is. If the players are there to tell them to run different plays, then this team would be headed for trouble. Coaches coach and players play. When that gets all muddled up players then don't play at the right level. Yes, some like QBs have input to the game plans and this is right, but have the O team meet the coaches on this is a recipe for disaster and it is not something that Wally Buono would allow. A meeting on overall team performance is fine as it is about learning the lessons from the last game and moving on and avoiding the errors and doing the good things in the next game.

My sense from listening to their team's player interviews was that they accept that as a team they simply didn't get it done and got outplayed by the guys opposite them. Yes, they wonder why they didn't run the ball more, but it didn't sound to me that they were looking beyond the players on the field for reasons for their lack of success in the game. The risk is always in a football team that they will point fingers at coaches decisions as excuses and this leads to disaster. Football is about execution and on offence the old saying goes, execution at the point of attack. If the players think that failing to win was the coaches fault, then look out below as more losses follow from that line of thought.

The positives in this game weren't many but definitely the defensive guys did a pretty good job in all positions given how long they were left stranded by the offence.

Defensively the Lions were fine in most categories and the replacements did a good job.

Special teams beyond a few guys like Ian Smart seemed to lack intensity on the returns.

Offensively, there were moments of brilliance (JJ to PJ) from JJ punctuated by moments of horror (INTs, missed guys).

[Blitz]

I think the JJ experiement is pretty much over

The JJ experiment was over before we began the season, with JJ on the trading block. Wally and Co. had no plans to sign JJ to an extension.

However our Leos couldn't get much for Jarious in a trade and decided that his value as a third stringer for this season was higher than trading him for almost nothing!

That turned out to be a good decision. It's easy to quickly forget that JJ came off the bench for us his previous game to throw two touchdown passes that were a key to our victory. Getting one victory out of a third string quarterback in a season is considered a bonus by most CFL coaches.

I would still sign Jarious Jackson as a third string quarterback... but like you I don't project him as a future CFL starter, based upon his age. However, it would be better next season for Jarious to try it with another CFL team if he wants to move up the quarterback ladder!

Still, Jarious is a very athletic, strong armed quarterback. I didn't see him make too many bad decisions out there at all. His interceptions were more the result of bad throws more than bad decisons and telegraphing some of his throws. Overall, his decision making and calm in the pocket were very good for a CFL first start.

As for Jarious throwing the football on a rope most of the time...that is something that should have been corrected by a coaching staff. I can take a high school quarterback and teach him how to put touch on a short pass or add some arc to a deeper throw! It's not rocket science...just instruction and repitition!

However, Jarious has not lived up to his promise and our offence has always been a poor fit for him to boot!! I still like Jarious as our third stringer for this season and wish we would create a few plays that suit his strengths better if he is ever needed to go into relief again this season.

In the meantime, since we can only bring a couple of new quarterbacks to camp next year...we need to priorize the search for a quarterback that has outstanding potential and is a good fit for what we will want to do with our offence in the future!

[Shi Zi Mi]

We did nothing in this game to utilize Jarious' strengths and minimize his weaknesses. We did nothing in this game to take advantage of our present offensive strengths and to minimize our offensive weaknesses at present.

If we had established Joe Smith early with the run, we could have taken advantage of Regina's ends crashing down and Jarious could have pulled the football out of Smith's bread basket and rolled him outside with some simple reads. We could have helped Jarious understand that Regina was playing an extra defensive back on our wide side. We could have helped Jarious by having our receivers run some post/corners with the Riders playing a safety deep in the middle all game.

We could have done a lot of things in this game to not only provide Jarious with a much better chance of success and we could have done a number of things offensively to give our offence a better chance to move the football.

Comparing Dickenson with Buck or comparing Buck with Jarious or comparing Jarious with Dickenson is like comparing an apple, an orange, and a pear.

Jarious made some very good throws and some very bad ones. Jumping all over Jarious is easy! However, he was NOT the most responsible for letting our team down and not giving us a good chance to win, even though we had a depleted lineup! Our coaches are most responsible for doing that!!

WE HAVE A BINGO !!!!!!!!