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Gridiron Ernie wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:13 pm

Question for those that believe a two-QB system doesn't work (and I do think you're on the right side of history believing that), but just the same, I'd be interested in hearing thoughts/opinions on where the main problems lie with that: As I've opined before in consideration of this notion, with Jonathan and Travis there would be little if any ego issues arising. So a healthy vibe would still be happening.

Plus there have been notable instances in CFL history where it has worked rather well for a spell. Names cited earlier in this forum (another thread) and also some cited by Suitor and Cuthbert during the telecast today support that. I'm not full-out lobbying for this, but I guess my sentimental side along with my admiration for the current play of Travis has me leaning that way (with my heart at least) at the moment.

Is it really that impractical? Even if contrary to the usual arrangement and/or coaching philosophy. Just asking. Again, I wouldn't suggest randomly platooning from series to series, but perhaps consider a designated half-game for each, or change-ups from game to game, depending. I can almost see some clever coaches managing that. Likely beyond the scope of our current offensive coordinator's usually rigid imagination though. Although, I liked a lot of what I saw tonight from the offence (although sputtering out and settling for field goals a few times--too many--got me muttering!)

My opinion, Ernie ...

It is a question of clarity and certainty, for the team and for the players.

I would say it is an organizational issue.

Too many cooks in the kitchen?

Two captains for a ship?

Two generals with equal authority in a theatre of war?

Can you have two Head Coaches? No. IMO, same with QBs.

You don't want players taking sides, as would be inevitable.

The biggest temptation is to not make a decision, to dither, to try rotation or series, to try game day announcement, etc. and problems develop from there. In someone's mind it is a question of why not me, always in their mind. With a decision, they can adjust to it, as they have throughout their careers.

So you nominally have one #1 QB, even if they are in all respects equal.

Others will see it differently. Many arguments can be presented for why it would work, and how it could work. The relatively few situations where it has been tried says something. My opinion ... don't do it, as it may well divide the team.

They say it is a good problem to have, too much talent. Fans take sides of course, wanting their favourite to get the reps. Presto, quarterback controversy, undecided. Evenly split? Dunno if that is possible. Who starts? Who finishes in a tough game? A full game each as starter? Series? Who has the hot hand? Are they both happy? Neither?

If Wally goes that way, both sharing #1 status, we will see. It would be interesting, possibly unsatisfying. I certainly have the greatest respect for both QBs.

IMO ...

WestCoastJoe wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:31 pm

Can you have two Head Coaches? No. IMO, same with QBs.

You don't want players taking sides, as would be inevitable.

otherwise it could become another flutie/Johnson situation

A 2 QB system can certainly work very well at least for a period of time. There are many examples of this from the past in the CFL, as well as with NHL goalies. There are different ways to approach it. Not sure for how long it is sustainable. The benefits are that you keep both fresh and have 2 competent guys with different styles available at any given time. Last year, Ottawa in some respects did this with Harris and Burris. Worked out pretty well for them in the end. We did something similar at RB with Allen and JJ24.

I don't think anyone has raised this but I found the game to have a great flow; at least in terms of the minimal amount of time wasted to flags.
I almost feel compelled to say it finished in what seemed like record time. I wonder if the league tracks how long it takes to play the 60? We usually have an eye on the clock with these 4:00 kickoffs to make sure we catch the ferry. Tonight we had loads of time.
It was also very refreshing to not see the turf decorated with challenge flags. I also think the officiating crew did a good job with letting the players play. Though I am still not quite sure what Proulx was explaining with the illegal kickoff? Was it a simple case of the ball not travelling the required distance?
Anyways loved the speed in which the game unfolded tonight.

Oh yeah, one last thing; if he doesn't get automatically fined for his helmet to helmet hit on Travis, Muamba should be getting some fiscal harm. Dirty SOB.

CardiacKid wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:09 pm

I don't think anyone has raised this but I found the game to have a great flow; at least in terms of the minimal amount of time wasted to flags.
I almost feel compelled to say it finished in what seemed like record time. I wonder if the league tracks how long it takes to play the 60? We usually have an eye on the clock with these 4:00 kickoffs to make sure we catch the ferry. Tonight we had loads of time.
It was also very refreshing to not see the turf decorated with challenge flags. I also think the officiating crew did a good job with letting the players play.

I'm out of the country and didn't see the game but most key CFL game statistics are favourable to fans this year. Going into this week, scoring was up by 6% over 2016 to 56.2 points per game, penalties were down by 14% to 15.36 per game (there were 14 penalties today) and the average game time was down by 2 minutes to 2:49, which is the first time in recent history it has been under 2:50.

I agree that there was a flow to the game with the lack of challenges. I too had trouble trying to comprehend what Proulx was trying to say mainly because of the crowd noise..

Sir Purrcival wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:17 pm

Barnes-Holloway seemed to work fairly well but I think those kinds of situations are clearly a minority thing.

Barnes-Holloway. Barnes-Hufnagel aka JJ Barnagel. Theismann teamed up with Greg Barton in 1971. If I recall I think at times Cahill had them rotating one series to the next. BC sort of ran a 2 QB system in 1994 with Austin and McManus. I think that was somewhat forced on them as it seemed like one or the other was always getting banged up.

Tom Clements and Condredge Holloway with Ottawa in the late 70s. Seemed to work well.

A 2 quarterback system would only work if the two QB's can park their egos at the front door. One advantage I see is that it forces the opposition to plan to defend both quarterbacks.

Sir Purrcival wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:17 pm

Barnes-Holloway seemed to work fairly well but I think those kinds of situations are clearly a minority thing.

That was the first one that sprang to mind; also Dillon-Kerrigan in Hamilton and Austin-Burgess in Saskatchewan.

A couple of you were asking what Proulx was explaining (pertaining to the Riders' failed onside kick): I couldn't follow what he was saying either. However Cuthbert and Suitor explained on the telecast. A penalty occurred on the play in that no one touched the ball in bounds. Someone has to at least touch it (in bounds) to make it a legal play. The Rider player who touched the ball was out of bounds, so it was an illegal kick-off. Indeed the player was airborne, but still deemed (rightly) out of bounds, as was the ball, when it was touched. This is how I recall their explanation anyhow. I'll stand corrected, but I think that makes sense.

Our Leos easily defeated the Saskatchewan Rough Riders last night, leading all the way and pitching a shut out for most of the contest. We dominated on both sides of the football and got back to winning ways.

The talent on this Leos team is impressive.

Here are some post game thoughts:

THE GOOD

It would be easy to begin my comments with the outstanding play of Travis Lulay, who started for his fourth game in a row at quarterback. Lulay has now played the best four game stretch of his career and once again he played very, very well. Or I could begin with another very impressive performance by Bryan Burnham, who led our recievers in this contest and once again made a head shaking catch of a ball that should have been intercepted.

I could begin by highlighting the difference Chris Williams made to our offence in this contest and the great deep ball reception he made early in the game against an excellent corner back.

I could go a different way and emphasize the play of Jeremiah Johnson, whose play helped bring back balance to our offence. Johnson, on the ground and as a receiver, made us very difficult to defend in this contest.

I could also begin by focusing on our defense and how invaluable Sol E was once again. Or I could begin with the excellent play of Chandler Fenner or concentrate on the play of Anthony Thompson in his first start as our free safety.

I could start 'the good' by focuing on speical teams play and mention that Ty Long punted for a 61.3 yard average and also pinned the Riders with his kickoffs, where he averaged 68 yards per kickoff.

But no, that is not where I am going to start my discussion of the 'good'. I'm going to start with the play of Charles Vaillencourt and the difference he made to our offensive line and our offence.
Our quarterbacks have not had a lot of time to throw this season, up until last nights game against the Riders. We had given up the most sacks in the CFL until the Argos decided to hang Ricky Ray out to dry earlier this week. Jennings was hurt as a defender sped by Facault untouched and Lulay managed to survive a similar play last week.

This was the best game our offensvie line has played this season. Lulay ofen had a lot of time to throw the football and to step up in the pocket. The difference maker was Vaillencourt. He had an outstanding game in the context that this was his first start of this season, his very first start as a left guard, his first time ever starting on the left side of an offensive line, and he had limited experience last season as a starting offensive lineman.

Vaillencourt did a very good job of pass protection. He picked up pass blocking assignments very well. He and Steward had excellent chemistry in passing off pass rushers to each other. Vaillencorut also double teamed with Husband very well. Impressively, Vaillencourt made some key blocks to spring Jeremiah Johnson. When Husband got hurt in the second half it was Vaillencourt who stepped into center, played very well at that spot too, and helped open holes for Shaq Murray Lawrence.

I wanted Vaillencoourt to start at right guard this season, while starting Fabian at left guard. where he had played before. There was no good reason to start Facault at left guard to begin this season, other than try to make the Olifioye trade look better than it was and worse, there was no good reason to leave Facault in the starting lineup as long as we did.

Vaillencourt is big, tough, aggressive, and mean. He played with intensity. We all saw what happened agaisnt Edmonton last week when we couldn't protect Lulay. It all starts up front. Vailencourt was the difference maker to getting our offensive line playing well as a unit. Steward is the best offensive lineman in the CFL so far this season. Husband is a very good, consistent center. Fabian is having the best season of his career. Palmer is a huge upgrade over Johnson. But we needed Vaillencourt to complete the picure. He did that with an excellent performance.

Travis Lulay had another outstanding game at quarterback. He threatened the Riders defense early and often, completing 5/7 throws of over 20 yards in the first half. He hit Williams deep early in the contest and ensured that the Riders would not be double covering inside by doing so. Once again, he showed poise in the pocket, stepped up into this throws, and threw bullets with accuracy on deep intermediate throws. His arm is the best I've ever seen it.

He has never thrown with this kind of accuracy and velocity and tight spirals in his career. Lulay was always a very good first read quarterback, an excellent scrambler, an outstanding runner, and a superb play action quarterback. He always had a great penchant for finding his tailback when under pressure. He has always been an outstanding leader. But he was never a great second and third read quarterback who would step up into the pocket consistently and throw with velocity and accuracy.

Not anymore. Lulay made some outstanding deep intermediate throws to Burham and Manny in this game. They were deadly. Impressively, Lulay, when under heat, ran up inside, always looking to throw while still running. Lulay only bailed once in this contest, running to his right, while giving up ground, and throwign the football out of bounds. Sometimes, in the previous version of himself, he used to do that on ocasion, a dozen times a game.

Importantly, Lualy also kept the football on occasion, on the inside zone read, and that helped open up our running game. Lulay did that on our first successful convert and later in the contest. It prevented the ends from crashing down on the inside zone read run, which defenses often do against us. I wish Jonathan Jennings would do it but he rarely does. Lulay does not focus on Arseneaux and Burhham but takes what the defense gives him. He can make every throw now and he spreads the football.

The defensive book on Lulay was to get inside pressure in his face, blitz a defender to his right side, spy him with a linebacker, and dare him to throw deep. Not anymore. Lulay's deep throws have been impressive. His throw to Johnson running vertcially up the sideline was a great touch throw that was pretty to watch. Lulay is a complete quarterback.

I belive that Jonathan Jennings has the best arm of any quarterback I have ever seen in a Leos uniform. His deep throws are amazing in their accuracy. He can throw off his back foot, while running hard to his left, and with a flick of his wrist, throw it 50 yards down field and on target. He has poise beyond his years and experience in the pocket and he has very good escapablity qualities.

But obviously Travis Lulay should be a CFL starting quarterback right now. He is too good to be sitting on the bench. Jonathan Jennings is one of the best young quarterbacks the CFL has ever seen. Jennings will likely start next week. He is the most dangerous quarterback we have. Lulay, right now is probably the most complete quarterback. For now, we have a great sitaution. Should Jennings struggle, we can go with Lulay with confidence. What happens beyond this season is something that should be left for the future.

Gotta mention Bryan Burnham. We're almost expecting the impossible from him and he delivers. What another great game and another great catch. His determination to catch the football is impressive. He made an incredible reception of what should have been an interception. He ran a Rider into the goal post for an easy touchdown catch. He ran great deep intermediate routes. He is very tough to bring down after a catch. He is a treat to watch.

Chris Williams really opened up our passing attack. His deep threat status and ability combined with his penchant for getting open underneath, where he is a dangerous runnner after catching the football, ensured that the Riders could not double cover Burnham and Manny. The difference was most notable in that we were able to get Manny open more often. We also left Nick Moore in the lineup and he made some clutch first down receptions.

Jeremiah Johnson had an excellent game, with better offensive line blocking in front of him. He averaged 7.4 yds. per carry on 10 carries. We got back to better offensive balance in this game. Rainey also ran hard inside and showed his burst speed to the outside. Lulay ran smart. Shaq Murray Lawrence ran the football like he has never ran it before in a Leos uniform. Given a second chance to wear a Leo uniform and an opportunity to play, he ran quick and hard in this contest, like he was catapulted.

Khari Jones also deserves mention. He has an over-abundance of talent and weapons on offence and he is starting to use them better. He is using Johnson out of the backfield more often in the passing attack. He set up a misdirection screen to Burnham which surprised me and impressed me too because he usually doesn't show that kind of imagination. He should also introduce a screen pass for Lumbala. Jones is also moving his receivers around more often and taking advantage more of matchups instead of just his usual "Here we are".

On defense, Stephen Clarke got his first start of the year and he played well and was not exploitied deep, as we have been too often this season at wide side corner. Fenner had another excellent game at nickel back, with one interception and another called back. Thompson was not challenged often at safety, as he got his first start, after some less than stellar games at corner, which is not a natural position for him. His interception was a thing of beauty.

Kudos to Purifoy for his first start at boundary halfback. He got beat once deep but the coverage was good and he did more than what could be expected for his first start at boundary halfback. What will happen to Purifoy when Lee returns is anyones' guess. Its a dogs breakfast figuring out what Washington is doing with our secondary but no question we have lots of talent back there but we need to get them in thier best spots and let them get used to playing with each other.

Sol E. had another solid performance and he is invaluable to our defense. Maxx Forde once agaain stood out with his reps and he really hustles. Why we are starting Turner ahead of him has me baffled. When Awe got more playing reps at the end of the contest, I thought he stood out much more than Burnett, who seems to play under the radar.
Finally, in terms of the good, its a very good thing that we recruited Ty Long this off-season. His punting just keeps getting better, he has a very good leg as a field goal kicker, and he has good poise as a rookie.

THE BAD

There was not very much bad in this contest. However, there are a few things worth mentioning. We had too many drives end in field goals against a weak defense and we need to get better if we want to be a championship team. We do have the best red zone average in the CFL but we had too many long drives that should have resulted in touchdowns, based upon our offensive weapons.

Our defense gave up two late touchdowns and lost focus and intensity. That was unfortunate. Our defense was not challenged deep by Kevin Glenn. But when Bridge came into the game and challenged us deep, we were not up to the challenge. Its something we have to work on, as wev'e been hurt with long plays way too often this season, as we were last season.

Finally, we did not get enough pressure on the quarteback in this game. Most of our blitzes were too easily picked up. Our defense has lots of talent but Washington has still not put it together from a personnell or scheme perspective yet as a defensive coordinator. He has work to do if he wants to develop as a highly competent defensive coach.

THE UGLY

Our punt return blocking is still ugly. Rainey averaged 6.8 yds. per return and Iannnuzzi had 7 yards on his one punt return. The blocking is unacceptable. Rainey is a weapon being kept in a cage. It gotta get better.

WRAP
This Leos team oozes with speed, talent, skill, and incredible depth. Outside of not having a dominant rush end, we have championship calibre talent. Its an abundance of riches. But we defintely need better defensive and special teams coaching.

Our Leos won a game they should have won. Once again we had some great individual play. Our offensive line play finally was up to the standard we need and Vaillencourt was a difference maker. Williams added another dimension to our offence. We have all the offensive weapons we need an and more, including two outstanding quarterbacks, two tailbacks in Johnson and Rainey who have outstanding talents, and a receiving core that is a nightmare to defend.

On defence there is talent everywhere but we need to have a vision of what kind of defense we want to be and where we should play people in our defensive secondary, not only short term but also long term. Right now it seems like an experiment and a crap shoot. Our return teams have to get better because we are wasting Rainey's incredible gifts.

Our Leos are 5-2. We remainn in the race. But Calgary and Edmonton are very good this year. We will need to make good personnel decisons and have top notch coaching to beat them. We play the Riders again and at their home turf. This will be no week to be complacent.

Its a treat to watch so many Leo players showcase their talent.

Great, detailed write up as always, Blitz.

Fun win for our Lions.

CardiacKid wrote: ↑

Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:09 pm

Though I am still not quite sure what Proulx was explaining with the illegal kickoff? Was it a simple case of the ball not travelling the required distance?

Out of bounds, I believe.

I think it would be a mistake to make too many conclusions based on this game. Its rare to see a team as flat and uninspired as the riders were last night. Riders offense was one dimensional, while their defense is sloppy and passive. Kudos to our players and coaches for being well prepared and dominating the game from start to almost the finish.

Despite some concerns prior to the game, the reworked secondary was nearly purrfect. Can't ask for a better performance, even if it was against the weakest starting qb in the league. Hard to get a read on Washington's D. There are definitely periods of excellence, as well as periods of seeming incompetence. I got the sense that against a better team, we would have been burned a few times.

There was pressure on Glenn from blitzes, though I felt the dline did not get consistent pressure.

The oline gave Lulay plenty of time to throw as well although, again, its unfair to compare the riders' dline to the esks', for example. Vaillancourt played well in his first game of the year. Will be interesting to see if Foucault gets back in the lineup when he is physically cleared. Lulay did get banged up a bit nevertheless. Looked like a breakdown involving Steward.

I love seeing Chris Williams on this team. Like Burnham, the guy is a playmaker. Knows how to get open and move the chains. Arseneaux is looking like a complementary player so far this year. A great complementary player to be sure, but a bit disappointing.

We need to get Rainey going on returns. It is frustrating seeing him surrounded immediately on every return.