2013 NHL thread

[WestCoastJoe]

I sympathize with Bertuzzi. He was following hockey culture, protect your stars. IMO Moore turtled, not following culture. Is this kind of stuff right? Nah, but to quote Bertuzzi from another situation: "It is what it is."

So Bert will have to pay something. It seems to me Moore was lost out there, drifting, disoriented. That is no way to be when on the ice in the NHL. He was not prepared, and his coach threw him out there.
.............

Re the game tonight. Nice result. The Nucks are playing well.

I know Vigneault is not all that popular with a number of fans, but both Luongo and Schneider credit him with great timing in his goalie choices. Unpredictable, but the results are impressive. I happen to like Vigneault a lot.

Go Luuu. Go Schneids.

[Toppy Vann]

did old Todd make the cut for another years easy money? did they ever settle all the lawsuits from the good old days?

Lawsuit still not before the courts. I think it's going to cost Big Bert some big bucks.

That prompted me to look this story today up and YIKES...$60 million. Without even reading the story I can't see a Canadian court making any award like that as things like 'pain and suffering' are capped by the Supreme Court of Canada and have been only adjusted for inflation since the trilogy of precedent cases become the precedent for all courts in Canada. To prove his future income loss in hockey is going to be very difficult as every player has a shelf life based on many factors and this guy seemed a bit marginal. I haven't read it yet, but I can't in Canada see these numbers adding up to anything in the ball park of $60 million.

If it happened to Sydney Crosby based on his contract you might argue that his loss could be high.

The part about a hedge fund manager and earnings - hmmm. How many of those didn't take a big hair cut in 2008 and beyond - not all did but to suggest without being the industry that this is the target path for a hockey player post career would be like saying Bertuzzi will be a brain surgeon when his hockey is done. I see what they are saying about the need to focus for the hedge fund manager as that is essential.

I am not sure if this in the statement of claim and they have already gone to examination for discovery on the issues or if this is all to be done before April. I still am not sure how this can be tried in ONTARIO when the incident took place in BC. At one time Moore's counsel tried for the US courts but it was dubious at best to think they could prove some sort of conspiracy that started in Denver and played out in Vancouver. How they get to Ontario escapes me but I am sure the lawyers know the law and issues better than someone like me.

Bertuzzi-Moore court documents shed light on ex-NHL player’s struggles
Steve Moore's $60 million lawsuit against Todd Bertuzzi over 2004 on-ice incident goes to court in April.

The company concluded Moore before his injuries had the chance to work as an investment banker, portfolio manager, high-net-worth adviser, salesperson or perhaps a research analyst. But his “shortcomings” following his injury “would make it difficult for him to perform the job successfully.

“In sum: While it is possible that Steve Moore could obtain employment as a hedge fund marketer, there is a very low probability that he would have been able to keep the job,” the court filings say.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey/20 ... ggles.html

Having said all this it is hard not to feel some empathy for both Moore and Bertuzzi. We know a lot more about concussion impacts since 2004 even and their impact.

Also these things have a habit of settling on the court house steps - BUT I can guarantee without knowing anything but the claim for $60 million, that this won't be one of those unless the demands fell far, far below that. I am sure the Bertuzzi side have considered every scenario from best through to worst case but for the life of me - I can't see it $60 million.

And a plaintiff - even deserving plaintiff - takes a risk in going to court and I have seen auto claims where they went to trial in BC and the jury awarded the person ZERO where a Supreme Court Justice in BC would separate the BS and crap out and award say $60 - 75,000. But with the jury decision (they are are triers of fact) the judge as trier of law gets his/her hands tied.

[TheLionKing]

US courts are more liberal in granting damages than Canadian courts. Didn't they try to have the case heard in the US but failed ?

[KnowItAll]

wont happen but, I sure would like to see moore take bertuzzi for everything he has

[TheLionKing]

Canucks win again tonight. 6 consecutive wins. They are certainly on a hot streak.

[Sir Purrcival]

wont happen but, I sure would like to see moore take bertuzzi for everything he has

Oh please! What Bertuzzi did was completely stupid and he deserves to be punished but what Moore deserves is to get what he would most likely have gotten out of his hockey career. A fringe forth liner like him would probably have knocked around for a few years, bouncing back and forth between the NHL and the minors. It would have been highly doubtful if his salary ever cracked the 2 million mark (that is being generous IMO). Moore's parents also tried to sue for 1 million because of the stress they incurred from watching the incident. Like it or not, there are inherent risks in the game of hockey and there is ample past evidence that getting gooned is one of those risks. Just ask Pat Lafontaine or Keith Acton or Donald Brashear. Moore deserves what is fair and nothing more.

[Toppy Vann]

What is with Roberto Luongo now? If he were traded to Toronto will Vancouver fans be calling their GM down like they did Eric Tillman for the Ricky Ray trade?

His After Hours interview was funny, witty and a more relaxed guy as the Province writer noted. He seems on top of his game.

Trading him as he is playing now really puts pressure on Cory S as he better be brilliant or fans will have him run out of town. I watched the Spengler Cup and was thinking Cory S was not as sharp as he might have been - granted it is hard to judge a game or two and the team and the game there are a bit different.

[KnowItAll]

wont happen but, I sure would like to see moore take bertuzzi for everything he has

Oh please! What Bertuzzi did was completely stupid and he deserves to be punished but what Moore deserves is to get what he would most likely have gotten out of his hockey career. A fringe forth liner like him would probably have knocked around for a few years, bouncing back and forth between the NHL and the minors. It would have been highly doubtful if his salary ever cracked the 2 million mark (that is being generous IMO). Moore's parents also tried to sue for 1 million because of the stress they incurred from watching the incident. Like it or not, there are inherent risks in the game of hockey and there is ample past evidence that getting gooned is one of those risks. Just ask Pat Lafontaine or Keith Acton or Donald Brashear. Moore deserves what is fair and nothing more.

at minimum, he should get more than just projected salary loss,

pain and suffering, court costs, punitive, medical costs.

however, for me, its not what moore deserves to receive but what bertuzzi deserves to have to pay.

[Sir Purrcival]

We'll eventually see what happens but pain and suffering is not usually considered that much in settlements in Canada especially when you can make a case for Hockey being the kind of profession that usually results in long term pain and suffering regardless. Court costs, maybe some, but if you go to court you usually takes your chances. Moore's best bet IMO is the permanent loss of income due the lingering effects of concussion argument. At least he is claiming that he can't do the work he intended to do in the financial sector due to post concussion syndrome. Of course that is open to interpretation as well. Had he had any prior concussions? and so on. He seems to be making a case for lifetime support which is very iffy at best. He isn't an invalid, he would have had insurance and most of his initial medical costs covered by the league. So at the end, how much is the court going to buy the loss of income argument. I would guess 10 million for the hockey part of his life and possibly a few more million for loss of future earnings if they buy that argument. I assume that he will be eligible for LTD should that part of his case be sustained. In short, if he gets more than 20 million I would be astonished. My guess is more in the range of 12-15 which still seems like a pretty good pay day for most folks. As for Bertuzzi, don't forget that despite this incident, he has put a lifetime so far into playing, training and taking the abuse that all hockey players take. Should that all count for nothing? Should he really lose all that he has? Would you make his wife and kids suffer unfairly as well? Justice is what it is. Moore will get something appropriate for his suffering, Bertuzzi will pay for his misdeeds. One won't be quite as rich as he thinks he was going to be and the other will be poorer than he thought he would be otherwise. At the end of the day, both will still be living in an income bracket far and away greater than most of us will ever reach. Kind of hard to feel for either of them on that score.

[KnowItAll]

We'll eventually see what happens but pain and suffering is not usually considered that much in settlements in Canada especially when you can make a case for Hockey being the kind of profession that usually results in long term pain and suffering regardless. Court costs, maybe some, but if you go to court you usually takes your chances. Moore's best bet IMO is the permanent loss of income due the lingering effects of concussion argument. At least he is claiming that he can't do the work he intended to do in the financial sector due to post concussion syndrome. Of course that is open to interpretation as well. Had he had any prior concussions? and so on. He seems to be making a case for lifetime support which is very iffy at best. He isn't an invalid, he would have had insurance and most of his initial medical costs covered by the league. So at the end, how much is the court going to buy the loss of income argument. I would guess 10 million for the hockey part of his life and possibly a few more million for loss of future earnings if they buy that argument. I assume that he will be eligible for LTD should that part of his case be sustained. In short, if he gets more than 20 million I would be astonished. My guess is more in the range of 12-15 which still seems like a pretty good pay day for most folks. As for Bertuzzi, don't forget that despite this incident, he has put a lifetime so far into playing, training and taking the abuse that all hockey players take. Should that all count for nothing? Should he really lose all that he has? Would you make his wife and kids suffer unfairly as well? Justice is what it is. Moore will get something appropriate for his suffering, Bertuzzi will pay for his misdeeds. One won't be quite as rich as he thinks he was going to be and the other will be poorer than he thought he would be otherwise. At the end of the day, both will still be living in an income bracket far and away greater than most of us will ever reach. Kind of hard to feel for either of them on that score.

you made good points. However, depending on the degree and length of pain and suffering, all the money in the world wouldnt be enough to compensate me. Also, I wonder if Moore has children that he couldnt play much with then or now, because of this situation. If so, they and moore would also due compensation from bertuzzi for that loss of special time together. Something they could never get back. I myself know the pain of that loss, and it will never go away.

[Sir Purrcival]

No amount of money can make up for the possible loss of quality time. I don't know if Moore has children but the life of a hockey player is about absenteeism much of the year in any case. To the best of my knowledge, Moore physically has recovered. What he is claiming is that mentally he has suffered permanent damage that will impair his ability to ply his stated trade both now and in the future. That is his best case IMO. What it doesn't address is whether or not, he can ply any other trade? For example, a pianist can lose an arm but still be a very effective conductor. Just because one avenue is shut down, doesn't mean all other avenues are similarly gone. It all comes down to how debilitating the courts see the impairment and how likely the plaintiff is able to adjust and move on. I think that is why I have the most problem with Mr. Moore. It seems since this incident is all that anyone hears is about is him waiting on this case, hoping to get every possible dime he can and basically taking the position that he can't do anything else. Maybe that isn't fair to him, I don't know but I do know that he has had years to get on and as yet still hasn't. This all happened in 2004 and the court is still waiting to process the case. At last blush, it appears that the Moore legal team have asked for a delay.

[TheLionKing]

What is with Roberto Luongo now? If he were traded to Toronto will Vancouver fans be calling their GM down like they did Eric Tillman for the Ricky Ray trade?

His After Hours interview was funny, witty and a more relaxed guy as the Province writer noted. He seems on top of his game.

Enjoyed the After Hours segment with Luongo. Seen a side of Luongo we don't see

[KnowItAll]

What is with Roberto Luongo now? If he were traded to Toronto will Vancouver fans be calling their GM down like they did Eric Tillman for the Ricky Ray trade?

His After Hours interview was funny, witty and a more relaxed guy as the Province writer noted. He seems on top of his game.

Trading him as he is playing now really puts pressure on Cory S as he better be brilliant or fans will have him run out of town. I watched the Spengler Cup and was thinking Cory S was not as sharp as he might have been - granted it is hard to judge a game or two and the team and the game there are a bit different.

poor eric didnt have a schneider in waiting.

[TheLionKing]

Ottawa Senators' Erik Karlson out for a couple of months or longer due to a severed archilles suffered tonight against Pittsburgh. Big loss for the Sens.

[WestCoastJoe]

I liked Matt Cooke as a player with the Canucks.

Not so much anymore.

Too many incidents. Careless? Reckless? Nah ... Guys are supposed to control their sticks. I would say it is the same for the blades.

If a guy is "careless," I would treat as a lesser offence than obvious, deliberate intent to hurt but also punish it rather harshly.

I did not like the look of Cooke's hard step down on the players Achilles. I know, off balance and all that (deniability for sure). But Cooke is a master at contact. IMO he knows balance and position very well, and sometimes "stuff happens."

I just shake my head now when I hear he has hurt someone else. Too bad, because he works hard, and has talent. Sometimes I think players' survivial instinct makes them do stuff (like Duncan Keith on Daniel Sedin).

If I heard that a player had stepped on the Achilles of a top defenceman, and the guy is out for the year, I would think: "Hmmmm ... Matt Cooke involved?"

Just IMO ... You are entitled to yours as well.