the resurrection of side deals: teams trying to cheat cap?

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Tighthead
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DerekDD wrote:[
i call them allstars because thats what they are not make up crap the way you do. check the allstar roster the last few years. no one is even close to having the same amount of allstars the lions have had. it has nothing to do with jealousy its a plain fact that you are not aware of it seems.

the most allstars with the fewest problems with the cap? anyone can smell a rat. i have news for you. its always been about the money and somehow these allstars are getting it and remaining happy despite the cap.
You suggest others make up crap?

He who asserts must prove. Prove it, or move on down the road kicking your jam pail.

I noticed you still haven't provided a reasoned suggestion on how to monitor endorsements on 13thman, beyond the highly intellectual "real job" and "that's a joke" refrains, and a general belief that the league should expose itself to restraint of trade litigation. Keep up the good work.
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Zarquon
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DerekDD wrote: i call them allstars because thats what they are not make up crap the way you do. check the allstar roster the last few years. no one is even close to having the same amount of allstars the lions have had. it has nothing to do with jealousy its a plain fact that you are not aware of it seems.

the most allstars with the fewest problems with the cap? anyone can smell a rat. i have news for you. its always been about the money and somehow these allstars are getting it and remaining happy despite the cap.
Where do you get the "fewest problems with the cap" from? I think the Lions had to make some hard choices last year for example releasing Carl Kidd. They had to release Dickenson for cap reasons. Just because the Rider's mismanaged their team in past years and are now dealing with Cap issues as a result doesn't mean everyone else is in the same boat.

You also have to look at the number of our "All-Stars" that are on the defensive side of the ball. I think alot of that is actually the defensive schemes that make it easier for these guys to be "All-Stars"

As for it always being about the money, I don't think so. The closest parallel is the NHL and its cap. Players want to go where they think they can win, and where they will be the happiest. Is money a factor in that, sure, but is it the only or even overwhelming factor I don't think so. Case in point Casey Printers was offered large money to sign in BC but choose to take less money to try and catch on in the NFL, because that is where he wanted to play.

Also if you read my previous post I think alot of this has to do with the contract structure that Wally puts together.
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DerekDD wrote:i can accept the fact the lions paid up front bonuses of a million dollars in front loading the contracts to have a huge advantage for the next few years.
b.s.
The Lions signed 7 players at the bonus deadline. The Eskimos signed 15 and the Riders signed anywhere from 20 to 28 by Eric Tillman's own admission.

If anything, the Lions were at a disadvantage compared to other teams in the West because Wally Buono was busy coaching his team in the Grey Cup that weekend while Tillman was renegotiating the contracts of half his roster to reduce the Riders' 2007 cap number and make it appear that he was a master at trimming salary.
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No Ordinary Joe
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Zarquon wrote:
DerekDD wrote: i call them allstars because thats what they are not make up crap the way you do. check the allstar roster the last few years. no one is even close to having the same amount of allstars the lions have had. it has nothing to do with jealousy its a plain fact that you are not aware of it seems.

the most allstars with the fewest problems with the cap? anyone can smell a rat. i have news for you. its always been about the money and somehow these allstars are getting it and remaining happy despite the cap.
Where do you get the "fewest problems with the cap" from? I think the Lions had to make some hard choices last year for example releasing Carl Kidd. They had to release Dickenson for cap reasons.
Don't forget about Bobby Singh and Mark Washington too.
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Hambone
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DerekDD wrote:i call them allstars because thats what they are not make up crap the way you do. check the allstar roster the last few years. no one is even close to having the same amount of allstars the lions have had. it has nothing to do with jealousy its a plain fact that you are not aware of it seems.

the most allstars with the fewest problems with the cap? anyone can smell a rat. i have news for you. its always been about the money and somehow these allstars are getting it and remaining happy despite the cap.
The main reason the Lions continue to defy your logic is they continually are proactively turning their roster over, particularly at the upper age bracket. More than any other CFL GM Buono seems to have grasped the concept of succession planning. It's valuable in the business world and applicable to the world of sports. Building from within will always be the most cost effective way to assemble a team. By doing so players "grow up" and develop within the organization and prefer to stay with the organization, if it's a winning one, as opposed to going elsewhere for more money. Conversely free agency is the most expensive way to build a team as you will always have to pay a premium to land a coveted free agent and in some cases grossly overpay for the value you receive. Of the 9 BC Lions who were named 2007 CFL All-Stars only Geroy Simon and Ian Smart had played a CFL game with another organization and 5 of the 9 were only in their 2nd CFL season and aside from Murphy still on their initial CFL contract.

There are other things Buono tends to do, moreso than others I believe, that have a positive impact on cap space.
1) He's not afraid to allow very good veterans depart even if they still have some productive years left. If he has a younger player developed to the point where he believes they are ready to move into a starting role he's not afraid to let the higher priced veteran go.
2) When signing rookies he almost always insists on and signs them to minimum 2+1 deals. If the player turns out to be a "keeper" they get him at a relative bargain for at least 2 years. Think Cam Wake and Aaron Hunt.
3) When dealing with option year players trying to land an NFL deal he rarely will try to sign them to an extension until after they've exhausted that possibility. Then he's effectively competing with the CFL market as opposed to the lure of NFL money.
4) The Lions generally avoid the free agent market unless they have a very specific need to fill as they did when the landed McCallum.

People keep asking how the Lions always keep their all-stars yet with only 1 full season having transpired since the the Lions won the 2006 Grey Cup 10 players have already departed from that team including starters Dave Dickenson, Bobby Singh, Ryan Thelwell, Mark Washington, Carl Kidd and Chris Wilson. Also gone are Nautyn McKay-Loescher, Markeith Knowlton, Sebastien Clovis and Kendrick Jones. And only 9 starters and 10 players total remain from their Grey Cup losing team of 2004 with other notables such as Antonio Warren, Barrin Simpson, Cory Mantyka, Casey Printers, Frank Cutolo and Chris Brazzell having departed. In 2004 BC placed 8 players on the West Div All-Star team and 3 on the CFL All-Star team. 4 of those 8 West All-Stars are long gone as is 2 of the 3 CFL All-Stars.

I think what makes it seem like they "always keep their all-stars" is the quiet manner in which the ones they don't keep disappear. Other teams seem to always be having release or cut players. It's purely semantics but when a sports media outlet announces that a team released or traded a player it always reverbates through the CFL fanbase much louder than someone retiring or signing on with another team. Most of the aforementioned Lion departures were due to retirement or simply being allowed to slip away quietly as free agent signings with another team, almost slipping under the radar so to speak. As for next year I think it's reasonable to assume that just like every year under Wally there will be some more "all-stars that BC always keeps" who will quietly depart unnoticed by all the Lion salary cap conspiracy theorists.
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I'm amused that Rider fans have so much respect for the talent on the B.C. roster that they repeatedly draw attention to the number B.C. all-stars. It's a reality in the CFL that players on first-place teams are most likely to be selected as all-stars. I've seen the Eskimos dominate the all-star rosters when they were a perennial first-place team. Take these selections with a grain of salt. If the B.C. players were so much better than Saskatchewan's, the Lions would be Grey Cup champions. Unfortunately, they're not.
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Zarquon
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So lead conspiracy theorist and Rider play-by-play man Rod Pedersen now has this to say on his blog:
Rod Pederson on http://rodpedersen.blogspot.com/2008/05/rodservations_07.html wrote:Oh great. This blog is now being monitored by both the WHL AND the CFL.

I got a friendly call from CFL headquarters yesterday informing me the full details of Kerry Joseph's new contract with the Argonauts have been registered entirely with the league office.

That means the $250,000 that was reported -- PLUS the nearly $100,000 in promo deals which wasn't -- all goes towards the salary cap.

The gentleman on the other end of the phone said this doesn't mean there still aren't under-the-table deals going on that they may not be aware of, but with regards to Kerry's contract, it's all legit.

Onwards and upwards..
Keep up the good work Rod, and remember to not let research get in the way of good journalism.
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Side deals or under-the-table type arrangements may still exist but I doubt they are as prevelant as they once were. There usually will be a tradeoff as most companies in this ultra-competitive global marketplace simply cannot justify giving away money without getting something in return. If through business connections a CFL team can help a player land part time work or land a promotional gig of some sort that give the player an opportunity to gain some additional income then I say all the more power to them and the player. In the end the player is being compensated for services performed outside the football team. Players often prefer the bigger markets simply because they provide more opportunities to supplement their football income. Oddly given the unparalleled community support the Riders receive from their fanbase I'd think Saskatchewan would be the place more likely to see the sort of side deals detractors complain about.
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lucky leo
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Every CFL team had a chance to spend big and sign their players before the deadline in 2006....Dont blame the lions for remaining competitive. A lot of the lion players that have signed big deals have stated the love playing for wally...and more money elsewhere does not translate into success...
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Zarquon wrote:So lead conspiracy theorist and Rider play-by-play man Rod Pedersen now has this to say on his blog:
Rod Pederson on http://rodpedersen.blogspot.com/2008/05/rodservations_07.html wrote:Oh great. This blog is now being monitored by both the WHL AND the CFL.

I got a friendly call from CFL headquarters yesterday informing me the full details of Kerry Joseph's new contract with the Argonauts have been registered entirely with the league office.

That means the $250,000 that was reported -- PLUS the nearly $100,000 in promo deals which wasn't -- all goes towards the salary cap.

The gentleman on the other end of the phone said this doesn't mean there still aren't under-the-table deals going on that they may not be aware of, but with regards to Kerry's contract, it's all legit.

Onwards and upwards..
Keep up the good work Rod, and remember to not let research get in the way of good journalism.
Good find, Zarquon, but DerekDD needs to know just HOW the Lions arranged that other promo deal for Joseph.
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Clearly DerekDD is very concerned about teams cheating the cap. I am sure he is posting his thoughts on the teams sites of those who were in violation this year and questioning their ethics? After all why waste time on idle speculation when there are hard facts available?
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the SMS auditor is supposed to be looking for these so I don't hold much weight in Rod's source unless he divulges it. At this point hearsay at best and I have faith that league is looking to ensure that promotional/side deals are being captured in the SMS as that was why it was implemented
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It seems that some fans can't make up their minds about BC. It's either

"Lions fans don't care and that is why they can't fill their stadium"

or

"The Lions are a bunch of dirty cheaters with piped in crowd noise, illegal side deals, an Owner that runs the league etc."

The way I see it, if number 1 is true then what would be the point of number 2? We obviously don't care enough about the team to anyone to consider throwing good money into an illegal side deal. Same goes for corporate sponsorship. What company is going to try and capitalize on the fame of a player in a sport that nobody cares about? Clearly, there aren't a lot of illegal sponsorship deals for Water Polo (just an example so Water Polo enthusiasts, don't get yourselves in a knot.) so if we truly didn't care about football, then the same should hold true.

So finger pointers, which is it? You can't have it both ways and you have failed to prove either in any case.
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Amazing. You'd think they'd take a year off from the crybaby routine having won the Grey Cup and all.

And they're still bitter about Burris to boot! Hilarious.

Go manage your own house, and try and stay under the cap next year, m'kay?

Thanks for playing, and when you get your head out of his lap, tell MFOT David Braley says hello.

And don't forget the Rider fan mantra:

"We're poor, we can't afford to cheat!"

"But your payroll in 2006 was $600,000 over the salary cap."

"So? Everyone else cheats! We have to too."
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Big Time
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Exactly. I laugh at how they are complaining on their message boards about Lions bias in the Lionbackers forum! Good gravy, have they ever looked through their own message board? I wouldn't go to the Riders board and expect anything other than Riders bias. That why it's a team message board! They seem to think that they are completely impartial and unbiased while at the same time criticizing everything that's said on the Lionbackers forum. If you don't want to see Lions bias, then stay out of this forum.

For all those Riders fans that are pissed about the JJ thing, I got some simple advice. GET OVER IT. It's not like something happened to one of their players. IF anything, they should be happy about the JJ thing as it injured a Stampeder, which helped the Riders as they barely managed to get by them in the playoffs last year, and it also created a minor distraction for the Lions leading up to the WDF.

Do i care whether JJ deliberately tried to injure someone or not? Hell no. I could care less. Every single game there are dirty plays. That's football. If JJ got away with one, just get over it.

I mean, it's not like he was cruising the bars in Regina and knowingly spreading the HIV virus or anything.

As for cheating the cap, the Riders were found guilty of cheating the gap. It's as simple as that. They were punished, now it's time to move on. To somehow justify it by trying to say the Lions were doing it too (where there is NO proof whatsoever) is just plain stupid.

The Lions are a well run team both on and off the field. Maybe instead of always complaining about the Lions, the Riders and their fans could try to get that organization to run itself more like the Lions. Then they might be able to aspire to something greater than one home playoff game and championship every 20 years.
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