West Final: Lions at Bombers

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Blitz
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No. Cottoy has abilities as an in-line de-facto Tight End that McInnis does not. A lot of the offense is predicated around where Cottoy lines up and what he does/who he blocks. The two are very different players and are used differently schematically. Cottoy will beat you up in small areas in a way McInnis will not.

Blitz is right above on how Lucky has faded out of the offense as a lid lifter, and if he can't lift the lid with his speed he has no use on this offense. Personally, though, he's a really cool dude and I've appreciated him being here. This offense has no lid lifter, which is good enough to beat most teams but not good enough to beat either Winnipeg or Toronto. Starting McInnis was the correct move against Calgary and as good of a choice as any this week as well.

This defensive base alignment, which shifted to more of a Stubler style bend but don't break at mid year, which neither stopped the run nor stopped Winnipeg's passing attack late in the season. It's not a winning strategy this week either, especially when paired with this offense, which is chunk gain driven rather than TOP driven.

When Rick Ball was here a few years ago, he opined in one of the WDF losses that the Lions were a good team that lost out to a great one. Same thing is on deck here.

The Lions aren't winning this game. The defensive scheme isn't built to stop whichever of the two Bombers offenses show up, which I would imagine will be the run heavy one, and the Bombers O Line is better than the Lions D line. They can beat us by out muscling us in the run, or they can beat us by out scheming us in the air and in man to man battles. They've shown they can do both, and I believe they'll choose the former path this week.

cromartie
Well, I thought I would be lonelier than a Maytag repairman on my thoughts on McInnis and Lucky. :wink:

If our Leos dress Lucky for this game, it would make sense to use him for a six pack, empty backfield formation or to give a Leo receiver a breather after a long pass pattern or long catch and run.. I would even insert him as a change up on punt returns and kick returns. However, if we do rotate him in, there should not be an over inclination to get him some action.

However, McInnis deserves to start for the reasons you stated, the ones mentioned previously, and a few additonal ones. Lucky had 38 more receiving yards on the season and a 3% higher pass reception average completion, per pass attempt, than McInnins.

However, considering that Lucky started all season when he was healthy, that McInnis spent more time as our 6th receiver rather than being in the starting lineup, and that we used Lucky for a lot of short pass attempts and wide receiver screen plays, which should have a high completion rate, Lucky's numbers are deceiving in reception yardage and reception rate.

McInnins outperformed Lucky in yards per reception, yac yards, touchdown passes, and big plays. Lucky, with only two receptions this season over 30 yards and a penchant to hit the turf immediately after a reception did not make him a dangerous pass and run threat. He certainly is not a receiver who is going to win a 50/50 football very often.

As cromartie noted, Lucky has been a positive asset during his time as a Leo. Earlier this season he was in a pout over his lack of production but since then has been his more usual postive influence. He loves attention but its been a positive type of attention which has endeared teammates and fans and added to esprit. (now how about that word :wink: )

But Father Time is not an athletes friend and especially for a football player who has relied on speed and quickness more than any other asset. Sentimental attachment is a great thing overall but it doesn't win playoff football games. You gotta go with your best players and especially against a formidable opponent.

As usual cromartie, you have shown hesitancy and pause in your predictions with your comment "The Lions aren't winning this game" :wink:

No question, Winnipeg's defence can pin their ears back and rush the quarterback all game with no fear of our running attack, which also makes play action impotent. Sure makes playing defense much easier

The reverse holds true for our defense. A balanced Winnipeg offence, with a powerful run game only makes defending their passing attack much more difficult. With the ability to run so well, it makes their play action much more effective. Our defense has to defend their run game and their pass game and on most plays we won't know whether they are running or passing and play action will allow them to pass block even more effectively while also freezing our linebackers.

But there is a reason why they play the games and not just for ticket and television revenue. Its not all that unusual for a West Final to be lost by the home team. Wally proved that many times. Yes, the Bombers won the series 2-1 in league games this season, winning in OT in Vancouver last time, to claim bragging rights for the season series. The Bombers won convincingly at home. The Bombers are a balanced team on offence and defense in that they are very sound running and throwing, they run inside and outside well and in the pass game they can slice and dice or burn you deep.

On defence they are also well balanced. They have talent and a very experienced defensive coordinator in the understated Richie Hall, who knows how to game plan to take away an opponents strengths. The Bombers have lots of recent experience in big pressure games and Collaros is poised in pressure situations. Its going to take something special for us to win and we will likely need a break or two.

But a football does not bounce predictably, footballs get tipped, and all kinds of things can go wrong for a favorite in a football game. As Yogi said "It ain't over til its over' and at this point, we have a good chance, with those few breaks and a very good outing. That is why I will be watching and hoping on Saturday.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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cromartie
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Blitz wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:22 pm
No. Cottoy has abilities as an in-line de-facto
But a football does not bounce predictably, footballs get tipped, and all kinds of things can go wrong for a favorite in a football game. As Yogi said "It ain't over til its over' and at this point, we have a good chance, with those few breaks and a very good outing. That is why I will be watching and hoping on Saturday.
People who criticize VA for holding onto the ball too long miss the point. Like with Hank in Ottawa, Campbell wants a chunk play offense that predicates a QB that holds onto the ball longer than average.

When that doesn’t work early, it’s a bad companion for the Stubler defense because that defense gives up time of possession and is susceptible to the run to boot. An offense throwing darts that miss that can’t get on the field is a combination primed for failure against opponents of equal talent or better. Or, on a bad night, Hamilton.

I’d like ‘he was unceasingly pragmatic if occasionally wrong,” engraved on my urn.
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B.C.FAN
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The Lions have a ratio problem that will be compounded by the potential absence of Ben Hladik and Jack Hinsperger. They removed Whitehead and Quincy Mauger from the starting lineup last week and made them designated Americans. That gave them 8 national starters. We can rightly debate whether Whitehead or McInnis should start at receiver, or whether Mauger or Adrian Greene should start at safety, but the ratio odds are against both Whitehead and Mauger starting. The Lions will have to start either Lokombo or Varga to replace Hladik as a national on defence. The only other realistic options include starting Francis Bemiy or David Menard on the defensive line, which could weaken their ability to stop the run, or Siriman Bagayogo in place of Mike Jones on the corner, but that would likely weaken their ability to stop the pass.
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B.C.FAN wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:57 pm
The Lions have a ratio problem that will be compounded by the potential absence of Ben Hladik and Jack Hinsperger. They removed Whitehead and Quincy Mauger from the starting lineup last week and made them designated Americans. That gave them 8 national starters. We can rightly debate whether Whitehead or McInnis should start at receiver, or whether Mauger or Adrian Greene should start at safety, but the ratio odds are against both Whitehead and Mauger starting. The Lions will have to start either Lokombo or Varga to replace Hladik as a national on defence. The only other realistic options include starting Francis Bemiy or David Menard on the defensive line, which could weaken their ability to stop the run, or Siriman Bagayogo in place of Mike Jones on the corner, but that would likely weaken their ability to stop the pass.
???

3 interior O-linemen + Cottoy & McInnis at receiver = 5 on offence.

Betts, Menard with Bemiy or Archibald available as well = one for sure if not 2 National D-linemen on the field at all times; + Lokombo or Varga at LB ... = there 3 on D = there's the 7 Nationals easily; Greene at safety starting if need be is an extra option.
Blitz
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I’d like ‘he was unceasingly pragmatic if occasionally wrong,” engraved on my urn.

cromartie
Your comment reminds of my favorite urn joke

A guy walks down the street and carries an urn in his arms.
A cannibal goes around him and says, "Damn, where'd you get instant?
:wink:

B.C.FAN wrote:
The Lions have a ratio problem that will be compounded by the potential absence of Ben Hladik and Jack Hinsperger. They removed Whitehead and Quincy Mauger from the starting lineup last week and made them designated Americans. That gave them 8 national starters. We can rightly debate whether Whitehead or McInnis should start at receiver, or whether Mauger or Adrian Greene should start at safety, but the ratio odds are against both Whitehead and Mauger starting.

The Lions will have to start either Lokombo or Varga to replace Hladik as a national on defence. The only other realistic options include starting Francis Bemiy or David Menard on the defensive line, which could weaken their ability to stop the run, or Siriman Bagayogo in place of Mike Jones on the corner, but that would likely weaken their ability to stop the pass.
The ratio is a challenge for sure B.C. Fan and you've put the coaching staff's options out on the table.
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Hambone
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OV:54-40 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 7:30 pm

???

Betts, Menard with Bemiy or Archibald available as well = one for sure if not 2 National D-linemen on the field at all times; + Lokombo or Varga at LB ... = there 3 on D = there's the 7 Nationals easily; Greene at safety starting if need be is an extra option.
Fine and dandy if Campbell has a gun pointed at his head to have 2 NAT DL on the field at all times. Thankfully that is not the case. First off toss Archibald's name out of the picture. With BC he's currently a ST coverage guy who is becoming an impact player in that role. He may be on a path to be current Lions era version of Jason Aragki. For all intents he's listed as a DE on the depth chart because they have to list him somewhere. You can likely count the number of defensive game reps he's received in his 2 year career on one hand and might have a finger or two left over. Playoff games are a lousy time for a coach to be in a spot where he has to cross his fingers and hope the guy is ready. BC is in no way backed into a corner where they must force Archibald into defensive reps to serve ratio needs.

Overall what would that theory do? It would make a DL often accused of being undersized even more undersized. As I said Archibald needs to be removed from the equation. Thus it means keeping 2 out of West All-Star Betts (250), Menard (259) and Bemiy (270) on the field at all times while keeping 3 out of West All-Star Baron (270), Banks (290), Debaillie (285), Tuehema (249), and Siddiqi (245) or Moore (281) off the field at all times. Simple math says the first group must be prepared to play at least 66% of defensive reps. Bemiy would not get 66% of reps meaning the other two would be playing 75% or more. At the same time the latter group would collectively spend 60% of reps standing on the sidelines. Lions are constantly rotating DL based on down and yardage situation. If they painted themselves into a corner as you suggest their rotational options get cut in half or less than half.

Lokombo will be starting at OLB while Varga will basically be filling the role Woods had when Hladik and Lokombo were starting. Greene may get the start at S which wouldn't be necessary to get to 7.
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OV:54-40
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Hambone wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:10 am
OV:54-40 wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 7:30 pm

???

Betts, Menard with Bemiy or Archibald available as well = one for sure if not 2 National D-linemen on the field at all times; + Lokombo or Varga at LB ... = there 3 on D = there's the 7 Nationals easily; Greene at safety starting if need be is an extra option.
Fine and dandy if Campbell has a gun pointed at his head to have 2 NAT DL on the field at all times. Thankfully that is not the case. First off toss Archibald's name out of the picture. With BC he's currently a ST coverage guy who is becoming an impact player in that role. He may be on a path to be current Lions era version of Jason Aragki. For all intents he's listed as a DE on the depth chart because they have to list him somewhere. You can likely count the number of defensive game reps he's received in his 2 year career on one hand and might have a finger or two left over. Playoff games are a lousy time for a coach to be in a spot where he has to cross his fingers and hope the guy is ready. BC is in no way backed into a corner where they must force Archibald into defensive reps to serve ratio needs.

Overall what would that theory do? It would make a DL often accused of being undersized even more undersized. As I said Archibald needs to be removed from the equation. Thus it means keeping 2 out of West All-Star Betts (250), Menard (259) and Bemiy (270) on the field at all times while keeping 3 out of West All-Star Baron (270), Banks (290), Debaillie (285), Tuehema (249), and Siddiqi (245) or Moore (281) off the field at all times. Simple math says the first group must be prepared to play at least 66% of defensive reps. Bemiy would not get 66% of reps meaning the other two would be playing 75% or more. At the same time the latter group would collectively spend 60% of reps standing on the sidelines. Lions are constantly rotating DL based on down and yardage situation. If they painted themselves into a corner as you suggest their rotational options get cut in half or less than half.

Lokombo will be starting at OLB while Varga will basically be filling the role Woods had when Hladik and Lokombo were starting. Greene may get the start at S which wouldn't be necessary to get to 7.

Not sure what your point is? Are you saying it would be a disaster for the Lions D-line to have Betts and Menard (subbed a bit by Beimy AND Archibald (FYI -a U Sports all-star defensive player - like Betts was, and Hladik and Varga), so 2 Nat. D-line, on the field most of the time ??? - so they would be missing average joes like Barron (all-star - LOL) Or Banks playing some ? And it was Ok to play raw rookie Moore last game because of his passport, but Archibald is banned from playing DE, so he can only play STs ??? Menard can play both DE & DE and so can Beimy it seems. D-line subbing is not limited to "groups" - unless there was some rule change that the Argos are getting away with ignoring.

And this was about an answer to the good old scary supposed "ratio problem" posed. They have 5 National starters on O, so only 2 on D needed: so even just one National D-linemen on at all times (you sure that is Ok and not debilitating?), plus one of Lokombo or Varga at LB, satisfies the 2 needed on D; Greene at safety is another option. = there is zero good old "ratio problem" to be concerned about.

I wonder if Campbell had a gun pointed at his head back when he won a GC with the RedBlacks - and had 4 Canadians playing the majority of reps on his D-line that game, and also had 11 or 12 Nationals playing reps combined on O & D, and not just 7 only ? :roll:
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Blitz wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2023 7:38 pm

B.C.FAN wrote:
The Lions have a ratio problem that will be compounded by the potential absence of Ben Hladik and Jack Hinsperger. They removed Whitehead and Quincy Mauger from the starting lineup last week and made them designated Americans. That gave them 8 national starters. We can rightly debate whether Whitehead or McInnis should start at receiver, or whether Mauger or Adrian Greene should start at safety, but the ratio odds are against both Whitehead and Mauger starting.

The Lions will have to start either Lokombo or Varga to replace Hladik as a national on defence. The only other realistic options include starting Francis Bemiy or David Menard on the defensive line, which could weaken their ability to stop the run, or Siriman Bagayogo in place of Mike Jones on the corner, but that would likely weaken their ability to stop the pass.
The ratio is a challenge for sure B.C. Fan and you've put the coaching staff's options out on the table.
Using process of elimination Knevel, Couture, Chungh, Cottoy, Betts and Lokombo are locks to start. What that leaves is the question of who is the 7th. That's pretty much a choice between McInnis in Whitehead's WR spot or Greene at safety. They've utilized both in those roles multiple times this season thus no reason to complicate things by trying to force a 7th starter at LB or on the DL.

Bigger question is how to they fill out their other depth spots and special teams needs in the probable scenario of Hladik and Hinsperger being declared out? Process of elimination there quickly cuts to the chase. Based on yesterday's injury report Lafrance is likely not an option. He was listed as DNP for a triceps injury. With that it appears that WR Petermann, OL Packer and FB St. Pierre, who I don't believe has suited up this season, are the only healthy NAT options. Global LB Maxine Rouyer also was a full participant yesterday. With that I believe Rouyer will draw in to fill Hinsperger's spot on the roster. He regularly plays on special teams when dressed making him the best fit to backfill Hinsperger's role. With Woods filling Hladik's role the other choice gets down to where Campbell would rather have other depth; at receiver or on the OL. He could go with Petermann to give an extra receiver or Packer to give him a 7th OL. With Williams offering some WR depth it won't surprise me if Packer gets the nod.
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The ratio discussion was hypothetical, and stemmed from the discussion about starting Whitehead or McInnis at receiver, with Woods starting at linebacker. If the Lions wanted to reinsert both Whitehead and Mauger to the starting lineup with Woods in the lineup, they would likely need to keep 2 nationals on the D-line or linebacking corps at all times. If they stick with 5 national starters on offence this week, they can do whatever they want with D-line rotations.
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While I have no stats to back this up, I do recall a TSN panelist in their semi-finals' review program suggesting that Vernon Adams gets into trouble only if he double-clutches versus goes through his read progressions and if not on, use his legs or toss it out of bounds.

It's pretty evident that this version of Vernon Adams is not the same QB he was even last year both in psyche and play. It's looking like his mindset is changed and that's a positive for this team.

I was thinking of going to a Lions practice but after Monday I see they moved to BC Place.

Yesterday would have been nice outdoors but not worth the risk given the rain forecasts we've been getting.

OR, they went outdoors to fine-tune their run schemes that will match anything Brady Oliviera or any of the Bomber's slots like Demski can pull off.

The risk here for the Bombers just like the Argos with the Als is to take BC too lightly based on how strong these two top teams are on all sides of the ball.
The risk of that collective imperceptible let down is never more present than with teams expected to win facing opponents who no one will bet on to win.
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Blitz wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:00 pm
Best ever playoff performance by a Leos quarterback?
A few comments on your points. First, when you say playoff you mean all the division Semi-finals, division finals, and Grey Cup?
For some people, playoff only means the division finals and semifinals prior to the Grey Cup.

Furthermore, the term performance as a quarterback can be very subjective as it usually only involves the passing statistics. How about the QB's rushing statistics, or the number of touchdown passes and rushing passes he made himself? And what if he threw interceptions - how do you quantify this? Finally, should the number of completions matter? In other words, do more completions but fewer yards look better or do fewer completions but longer yards look better for a QB stat?
Blitz wrote:Thinking maybe Joe Kapp?
In the 1963 Grey Cup in which the Lions lost 21-10, Joe Kapp went 17-34 for 254 yards and 1 TD pass and 1 interception.
Whereas in the 1964 Grey Cup in which the Lions won 34-24, Joe Kapp actually performed worse with 10-21 for 144 yards with 0 TD passes and 1 interception.

So this goes to show having better QB stats in terms of more completions and passing yards doesn't mean that the team will score more points or win the game.

I suppose a great example in the NFL would be in Super Bowl 48 when then-Denver Broncos QB set a then-positive Super Bowl record with most 34 completions in a Super Bowl game and one of his receivers Demaryius Thomas also set a positive record of number 13 receptions. But the team would only put on 8 points in their demolition 43-8 loss to the Seahawks while Russell Wilson only had average stats at 18-25 for 206 yards and 2 TD's.
Blitz wrote: How about Doug Flutie..that would be a good choice.
Doug Flutie only played one playoff game as a BC Lion and that was the 1991 WDF and that game was very typical and representative of the entire 1991 Lions season in that Doug Flutie and his offence would work very hard to put on well-earned points on the board only to have it ruined and be futile after the terrible and pathetic defence would allow the opponent to put on more points. So while the 1991 season may be exciting in terms of offence, it was too frustrating and infuriating when the defence couldn't help the team keep up the lead. And the 1991 WDF was yet another such an example as putting up 41 points on the board including a 31-15 lead at halftime is usually good enough to win games, but not if the team allows four touchdowns in the third quarter which is exactly that the Lions defence did in the 43-41 WDF loss.
Blitz wrote: How about Kent Austin or maybe Danny McManus.
In the 1994 playoff run, neither QB played the entire game as they both came in relief after the starter became injured.
In the 1994 Grey Cup, Austin actually had more completions at 7-16 albeit with three interceptions. And McManus passing stats were only 3-7 with albeit three long completions including a very controversial one with no interceptions and one rushing TD.
Blitz wrote: perhaps Damon Allan had one of his special outings?
In the 2000 Grey Cup game, Damon Allen went 18-31 with 0 interceptions and 0 TD passes, but he did score two rushing touchdowns himself and that's the first time a Lion QB scored two rushing TD's. Prior to that, McManus scored one rushing touchdown in the 1994 GC.
Blitz wrote: Then it had to be Casey Printers? Wasn't him? Perhaps Dave Dickenson?
We all know that Casey Printers got injured in the 2004 WDF and didn't finish the game, and it's been debated to death as to whether he should have played in the 2004 Grey Cup. Printers entered late in the 2005 WDF in relief and promptly threw an interception. Dave Dickenson finished out the 2004 WDF and couldn't quite deliver in the Grey Cup. And in the 2006 Grey Cup while Dave Dickenson was selected as GC MVP, he went 18-29 and 184 yards with 0 TD's and 0 interceptions and it looks like he was selected simply by default as no other player was too spectacular in the Lions 25-14 win. It can be argued that Paul McCallum should have won both MVP and MVC as he put in 19 out of the 25 points put on by the Lions.
Blitz wrote: Going into Saturday's contest, the best playoff performance ever by a Leo quaterback was a 375 yard passing performance by Roy Dewalt.
Roy Dewalt went 14-28 in the 1985 Grey Cup, but albeit his 14 completions were very long ones with three long TD passes a total of 394 yards and 0 interceptions and it looks like by default he won by MVP Offence although one can argue that Ned Armour with his 3 receptions for 151 yards and 2 TD's or Sandusky wth his 6 receptions for 135 yards and 1 TD could easily have won it.

You forgot to mention Matt Dunigan.
In his only playoff run in 1988 as a Lion, he performed well in both the WDSF and WDF by putting a lot of points in the respective 42-18 and 37-19 wins on the road. But in the 1988 GC, he only went 14-32 and threw two costly interceptions.

So to summarize, it looks like QB performance can be very subjective as there are too many statistics that you can apply and it's difficult to compare which statistics count more:

1. Most passing yardage
2. Most completions
3. Most passing touchdowns
4. Most rushing touchdowns
5. Least amount of interceptions
6. Least amount of fumbles committed
7. Points produced by his offence
8. Whether his team won the game
Last edited by Robbie on Wed Nov 08, 2023 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Official team injury reports for Day 2 look much like Day 1, which is bad news for the Bombers.
The Bombers were without receivers Dalton Schoen (ankle), Nic Demski, (ankle), Jeremy Murphy (hip) and Rasheed Bailey (knee) for the second-straight day. Defensive lineman Jackson Jeffcoat (hip) was a full participant after sitting out on Tuesday.

The Lions were without defensive back Jalon Edwards-Cooper (shoulder), linebackers Jack Hinsperger (head/shoulder) and Ben Hladik (knee) and running back Kienan Lafrance (triceps) for the second-straight day. Defensive back Garry Peters (knee) was limited once again.
BOMBERS, LIONS INJURY REPORTS: SCHOEN, DEMSKI SIT OUT WEDNESDAY

Wednesday was the Bombers' final open practice of the week. They'll be behind behind closed doors Thursday and for their final walkthru Friday but will be required to release an official injury report Thursday.
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Blitz wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:00 pm
Best ever playoff performance by a Leos quarterback? Thinking maybe Joe Kapp? How about Doug Flutie..that would be a good choice. Or maybe Jerry Tagge? Nope. How about Kent Austin or maybe Danny McManus. Here is a thought...perhaps Damon Allan had one of his special outings? No?

Then it had to be Casey Printers? Wasn't him? Perhaps Dave Dickenson? Jonathan Jennings had an outstanding semi-final performance against the Bombers, pulling out a come from behind victory? No? Well it just has to be Travis Lulay who has the best ever playoff performance. Well it wasn't. Didn't Nathan Rourke come out tossing bullets last year against Calgary in the West Final? It wasn't him? No it wasn't.

Going into Saturday's contest, the best playoff performance ever by a Leo quaterback was a 375 yard passing performance by Roy Dewalt.

On Saturday Vernon Adams threw for 411 yards, threw for two touchdowns, ran for three more, and had no interceptions. Big Play VA is now the Leos record holder for best quarterback performance in a playoff game. :thup:
I think most yards does not automatically mean best performance.
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More Bomber injury updates and roster speculation from Ted Wyman of the Winnipeg Sun:
At practice this week, the Bombers have used receivers Brendan O’Leary-Orange and Greg McCrae with the starting group and have also worked in newcomer Markeith Ambles.

They all could play, should Demski and Bailey not be available. The most likely scenario, however, is O’Leary-Orange and McCrae working to fill the role normally performed by Schoen.
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Man Bomber fans are so cocky. Just reading some posts from their forum and they seem to think Saturday will be a cake walk for them. Would really like the see the Lions kick the Bombers in the teeth.
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