2015 All Things Lions Marketing & Promotions

[TheLionKing]

It is a mistake to take away options, ultimately one of the reasons that ticket sales have diminished is the price point. This move will only escalate that point, further diminishing ST sales. How happy would you be if you were one of the ST holders in the UD, have purchased a ST and then get told that you will have to readjust to what is available in the LD? There is no need to further distance your ST purchasers, and limiting the UD options had to reduce costs to the point of being insignificant, with the potential of opening up many more seats for the games that require it seamlessly.

I haven't been happy with the LIons front office moves since the passing of BA, and this just adds to the dumping that is now common on the fans. Lions are putting up barriers when they need to be trying to break every one down for their fans.

X2

[David]

It's great to be an optimist but we also need to be realists. If that was Skulsky in TEXAS at the FA Camp shovelling snow he's focused on all the wrong things and in the wrong places.

That is definitely not Dennis Skulsky clearing snow in Dallas in that picture. Looks more like Chuck McMann or someone.

Dennis is too busy here looking for ways to shrink the business (lower bowl only, exhibition game at out-of-the-way Thunderbird Stadium at UBC, no radio deal etc).


DH

[sj-roc]

It's great to be an optimist but we also need to be realists. If that was Skulsky in TEXAS at the FA Camp shovelling snow he's focused on all the wrong things and in the wrong places.

That is definitely not Dennis Skulsky clearing snow in Dallas in that picture. Looks more like Chuck McMann or someone.

Dennis is too busy here looking for ways to shrink the business (lower bowl only, exhibition game at out-of-the-way Thunderbird Stadium at UBC, no radio deal etc).


DH

Is this a done deal, or rather simply the rumoured favourite? Haven't seen anything definitive about it elsewhere. In fairness, the WWC is what forced the Lions out of BCP at this time. I'm sure DS would have otherwise had the PS game played @BCP like any other year. The Whitecaps too are banished from BCP for the entire month of June although the nature and timing of their schedule allows them an extended road trip of five games.

[Blue In BC]

Over priced and now more difficult to get good seats if not a ST. Just another reason to attend less games at BCP.

[The_Pauser]

That is definitely not Dennis Skulsky clearing snow in Dallas in that picture. Looks more like Chuck McMann or someone.

Dennis is too busy here looking for ways to shrink the business (lower bowl only, exhibition game at out-of-the-way Thunderbird Stadium at UBC, no radio deal etc).


DH

What's he supposed to do though? For starters I think the lower bowl only is a good idea given the sad state of the sports interest in this town (way too many bandwagoners). I'm also still shocked at how many so-called life-long die-hard fans are willing to just stop supporting the team just because they can't sit upstairs. If you want a higher view then sit towards the top of the lower bowl. The seats are quite good.

Re: Thunderbird stadium...sure it's a bit out of the way, but where else should they host the game? It's not like we have a lot of big enough stadiums hanging around in a closet in case we need to use it. Thunderbird stadium is a heck of a lot better than Swangard.

The radio deal is concerning. That simply has to get done and would be completely inexcusable if they don't have a radio deal in time for the season.

[sj-roc]

That is definitely not Dennis Skulsky clearing snow in Dallas in that picture. Looks more like Chuck McMann or someone.

Dennis is too busy here looking for ways to shrink the business (lower bowl only, exhibition game at out-of-the-way Thunderbird Stadium at UBC, no radio deal etc).


DH

What's he supposed to do though? For starters I think the lower bowl only is a good idea given the sad state of the sports interest in this town (way too many bandwagoners). I'm also still shocked at how many so-called life-long die-hard fans are willing to just stop supporting the team just because they can't sit upstairs. If you want a higher view then sit towards the top of the lower bowl. The seats are quite good.

Re: Thunderbird stadium...sure it's a bit out of the way, but where else should they host the game? It's not like we have a lot of big enough stadiums hanging around in a closet in case we need to use it. Thunderbird stadium is a heck of a lot better than Swangard.

The radio deal is concerning. That simply has to get done and would be completely inexcusable if they don't have a radio deal in time for the season.

But it's not just that flaccid fan support warrants the LB-only move. You have to peel another layer off that onion and ask how it got to that point in the first place. Annual ticket price increases with a regression in the quality of the product has been a theme of this franchise for the last several years and this has happened on DS's watch. Part of the problem is that they seemed to take ticket sales for granted when the roof was replaced. That's something I don't think would have happened under Ackles had he still been around. There might have been some attrition in the attendance numbers anyway, but not IMHO to the same extent we're currently seeing.

[David]

What's he supposed to do though? For starters I think the lower bowl only is a good idea given the sad state of the sports interest in this town (way too many bandwagoners). I'm also still shocked at how many so-called life-long die-hard fans are willing to just stop supporting the team just because they can't sit upstairs. If you want a higher view then sit towards the top of the lower bowl. The seats are quite good.

Re: Thunderbird stadium...sure it's a bit out of the way, but where else should they host the game? It's not like we have a lot of big enough stadiums hanging around in a closet in case we need to use it. Thunderbird stadium is a heck of a lot better than Swangard.

First, it's not that I have a problem going to the Lower Bowl only. It will likely improve the atmosphere (but I still maintain they could keep both open AND improve ambiance with creative tarping and stadium configuration. The LB corners are still likely to go unsold so they may just end up reducing the size of their overpriced pie). What I have a problem with is Skulsky and Braley's massive growth miscalculation. Skulsky was on TSN 1040 (nee TEAM 1040) radio less than 3 years ago during Presidents' Week touting crowds of 35,000 - heck, even 40,000 wasn't out of the question, he said at the time. What? How do you go from there to "crying uncle" in a Lower Bowl configuration with what's likely to be 15,000 subscribers? In the real world, people get fired for these types of projection miscues.

Second, if it were entirely up to me I would want the team to play every game at Thunderbird Stadium. It's 10 minutes from my house. But apart from my sentimental attachment to it, it has limited parking, it's not close to mass transit, and has only 1 grandstand. How are you going to get Lions fans to go out there for a preseason game when many people complain about going downtown for a regular season game that's only meters from a Skytrain stop!

Swangard is a far more sensible destination if they're sold on playing it in Vancouver. But since they're "the Pride Of All B.C.," what about Centennial Stadium in Victoria? Unless they're bent on making the entire Island Seahawks fans? And if they want minimal upheaval, what about Hillside Stadium in Kamloops? You could invest in temporary bleachers on the north side and thank the Tournament Capital for being great training camp hosts etc.


DH

[Hambone]

It is a mistake to take away options, ultimately one of the reasons that ticket sales have diminished is the price point. This move will only escalate that point, further diminishing ST sales. How happy would you be if you were one of the ST holders in the UD, have purchased a ST and then get told that you will have to readjust to what is available in the LD? There is no need to further distance your ST purchasers, and limiting the UD options had to reduce costs to the point of being insignificant, with the potential of opening up many more seats for the games that require it seamlessly.

I haven't been happy with the LIons front office moves since the passing of BA, and this just adds to the dumping that is now common on the fans. Lions are putting up barriers when they need to be trying to break every one down for their fans.

When Ackles returned he was a big proponent of the lower bowl only strategy until demand warranted opening the upper bowl. Given the Lions average attendance has hovered just above lower bowl capacity for the past two seasons and ST renewals have been reported at only 65% I believe Ackles also would be closing the upper bowl at this point in time. Only 6 of 18 home dates have seen crowds of 28K+ over the past 2 seasons. 2 of them were against the Riders including guaranteed win night and 2 of them were after guaranteed win night thus benefitting from it.

I can't see the home team side of the upper bowl from my seats so don't really have much sense of what things have been like up there. While lamenting this move right now I guess the question that begs to be answered is just how many UB ST holders were there last year? There are only 600 seats in the first 5 UB rows they were selling as Coaches Sideline seats. From what I recall looking at single game purchases there were always lots of UB seats available in the first 10 rows between the 20s, probably more than 50% available. I'm thinking we're talking maybe 300 UB STs sold last year? If 65% renewal applies there maybe we're down to 200 being effected by this. We also don't know the economics of the Lions' lease agreement with BCP. Is their rent a flat fee regardless of how much of the stadium is in use or is there some sort of scaled system that increases the more of they stadium they open up?

I don't underestimate the impact this has on those seat holders as many believe the first few rows of the upper bowl are the best seats in the house. However from the club's side of the equation at what point is it not economically viable to keep the upper deck open for a small percentage of season ticket holders who have renewed? That this move has come now tells me it's driven by ST renewals or lack thereof. I think they are looking at the very strong probability that outside of Rider games it will be a challenge to crack 26K on any given night which would make things look even sparser if it means 23K in the lower bowl. I wonder if they'll use the curtains the Whitecaps use to not show the upper bowl?

[jcalhoun]

What's he supposed to do though? For starters I think the lower bowl only is a good idea given the sad state of the sports interest in this town (way too many bandwagoners). I'm also still shocked at how many so-called life-long die-hard fans are willing to just stop supporting the team just because they can't sit upstairs. If you want a higher view then sit towards the top of the lower bowl. The seats are quite good.

I find the language you use worthy of examination Pauser, because I think it betrays a certain idealistic perspective that no longer carries the weight you think it does, or should.

Presumably, you think I'm a bandwagon fan for having stated my interest in the team has waned. Fair enough. But I think you're a sucker for blindly supporting an organization with your time and money regardless of how they behave. You are advocating a system where the fan must show loyalty unquestioningly, or else be labelled as a lesser fan. Okay. But what loyalty does the team then owe the fans?

I'm probably more cynical than you are but I view the Lions as merely another business. In the last several years they have taken every opportunity to increase the price of their product, (sometimes dramatically), while slowly trimming away everything pleasant about the experience of going to a game. Every moment, every square inch has been monetized. Every perk has been eliminated.

For instance, can you tell me why there isn't a lunchbox night anymore? Bobblehead night? I can. Because the team could sell those rather than give some away, and why would you give something away to kids when you could gouge their parents instead?

In a sense, I agree with you. I imagine you, and guys like you calling in to the radio station and starting with, "I've been a season ticket holder since ____". You think this lends your opinion more weight, that you're due more respect, or consideration, etc. In an ideal world, or under a leader like Ackles, it certainly did. But do you really think that's what Skulsky hears when you say that? He thinks, "I've got you already" and he stops listening. He knows no matter what he does, guys like you are going to bend over.

Here's a thought experiment for you. The Lions presumably budgeted on having crowds as large or larger in 2015 than they did last season. From this they determined costs. With these in mind, they set the pricing structure for tickets in 2015. After they set this price point they've announced the closing of the upper deck. This translates into lower operating costs for the team. Do you think for a moment you're going to see a). a price reduction, b). increased services, c). any perks? You're not. What you just got was less choice, a longer line at the concession and a dirtier washroom for more money than you paid last year.

Is that what it feels like to be a real fan? To me, that looks like Stockholm Syndrome.

Cheers,

James

[KnowItAll]

they should demolish the worse part of whalley and build a 35000 seat stadium there. With a multi level parking lot.

[sj-roc]

When Ackles returned he was a big proponent of the lower bowl only strategy until demand warranted opening the upper bowl. Given the Lions average attendance has hovered just above lower bowl capacity for the past two seasons and ST renewals have been reported at only 65% I believe Ackles also would be closing the upper bowl at this point in time. Only 6 of 18 home dates have seen crowds of 28K+ over the past 2 seasons. 2 of them were against the Riders including guaranteed win night and 2 of them were after guaranteed win night thus benefitting from it.

It's fair comment that under current circumstances, BA — putting aside the question of whether he would have stepped aside by now anyway of his own volition, being nearly 76 — also would have retreated to a LB-only config. But by the same token, I don't think crowds would have dwindled this much under his watch that he'd even have to entertain the notion in the first place.

The biggest portion of the work of building attendance is done in the off-season with season ticket sales. This is why the crowds continued to dip in 2002 (from 19,857 in 2001 to 18,507) even after he came on board. He wasn't hired until March of that year and didn't have a full off-season to get a bona fide season ticket drive off the ground, one that anyway would have had them selling this market on Damon Allen, who — for all of his accomplishments — simply never stirred the public's imagination, which was largely why he was ousted before the 2003 season. With his first full off-season, BA was able to boost the average to 23,653 (much of which growth was no doubt from the fortuitous WB hiring that finally offered some confidence to what had been a long-suffering and largely disengaged fanbase).

He died quite early in the 2008 season, but this was still the highwater mark of the post-Don Matthews era (aside from 1991's Flutiemania) with an avg crowd of 34,083, the final season of a 4yr 30k+ streak. With so many STH's locked in before his death, crowds continued to sustain for the rest of that season.

But then in BA's absence, the wheels began to fall off the very next year as crowds dropped in 2009 to 28,610. It's true we had some dreadful games at home that year including the one where we let Wpg's Fred Reid run roughshod all over us for most of the game. But the bigger off-field wound was already inflicted well before this, with ST losses sustained that previous off-season. Every reg season game in 2008 was 30k or more (min 30,132), whereas this level was reached only 3x in 2009 (max 31,958), with the other six games tightly clustered around 27.3k, give or take under 700.

[The_Pauser]

I find the language you use worthy of examination Pauser, because I think it betrays a certain idealistic perspective that no longer carries the weight you think it does, or should.

Presumably, you think I'm a bandwagon fan for having stated my interest in the team has waned. Fair enough. But I think you're a sucker for blindly supporting an organization with your time and money regardless of how they behave. You are advocating a system where the fan must show loyalty unquestioningly, or else be labelled as a lesser fan. Okay. But what loyalty does the team then owe the fans?

I'm probably more cynical than you are but I view the Lions as merely another business. In the last several years they have taken every opportunity to increase the price of their product, (sometimes dramatically), while slowly trimming away everything pleasant about the experience of going to a game. Every moment, every square inch has been monetized. Every perk has been eliminated.

For instance, can you tell me why there isn't a lunchbox night anymore? Bobblehead night? I can. Because the team could sell those rather than give some away, and why would you give something away to kids when you could gouge their parents instead?

In a sense, I agree with you. I imagine you, and guys like you calling in to the radio station and starting with, "I've been a season ticket holder since ____". You think this lends your opinion more weight, that you're due more respect, or consideration, etc. In an ideal world, or under a leader like Ackles, it certainly did. But do you really think that's what Skulsky hears when you say that? He thinks, "I've got you already" and he stops listening. He knows no matter what he does, guys like you are going to bend over.

Here's a thought experiment for you. The Lions presumably budgeted on having crowds as large or larger in 2015 than they did last season. From this they determined costs. With these in mind, they set the pricing structure for tickets in 2015. After they set this price point they've announced the closing of the upper deck. This translates into lower operating costs for the team. Do you think for a moment you're going to see a). a price reduction, b). increased services, c). any perks? You're not. What you just got was less choice, a longer line at the concession and a dirtier washroom for more money than you paid last year.

Is that what it feels like to be a real fan? To me, that looks like Stockholm Syndrome.

Cheers,

James

I don't mean to call you or anyone on here a bandwagoner. Vancouver has a ton of bandwagon fans for all sports. These are people who will go to games because it's the "in" thing to do, don't really know much of the sport at all, and disappear at any sign that the team is losing or going through any kind of rebuild period. And I'm certainly not a sucker. I have opinions on the team, but I also realize there is a bigger picture. It isn't as if the team is intentionally offering a crap product and not making any changes to make it better. That's something that the Canucks had been doing under Mike Gillis. The Lions are showing they are willing to make changes (especially to the on-field product) with their actions of not only firing an OC that a lot of fans were tired of back in 2014, but then subsequently firing the majority of the offensive coaching staff after a disaster of a finish to the season. I love this team, I am a fan of a lot of the players (this team and around the league) and am friends with some of them, and I will continue to support this team the way I do.

I have been a Lions fan ever since I was a kid. What really did it for me was the 94 playoff run. My love for this team has grown to heights it has never been before due to the Operation Orange road trips that I've done. I highly recommend checking one of these out if you can afford it, because it's a great experience. It is pricey, but well worth it.

Yes, there have been numerous cost-cutting measures from the 90's and early 2000's, but we don't really have their financial statements to determine if those programs were sustainable. The economics have changed considerably. Perhaps Braley is tired of not turning profits? He's entitled to that. What I care about is the on field product first and foremost, and in that regard he has shown that he is willing to open up his wallet and allow Buono and Co to go after whomever they wish. Buono's management tactics could be under question and I think that would be a valid point to make.

And I don't call in to radio stations. I'm a 29 year old fan of this team, and I have been a season ticketholder since 2005. I love attending the games because it's good fun, and even when they had some not so good teams in 2008-2010 I loved going to the games and never once considered canceling my tickets. Yes, they got me as a fan. That's what every team should have: a healthy fanbase. It's especially important to target people in my age demographic and attract more and more younger fans. No I don't have the experience that most on here have. I haven't been around following this team since the 50's, 60's and 70's. I don't even know as much about certain plays and schemes that a lot of people on here do. That's why I love this board though because everybody can learn from each other and collaborate together. What I do know is business, and yes, the Lions could do some parts of their business a lot better. I do agree that the Lions need to do a much better job of promoting themselves, but it is getting better. I love what they're doing with the post-game after parties. That brings the players straight to the fans after a game, and is something that helps attract the younger fans.

I would like to see what their financial statements look like, and their cost structures before I pass judgement on your last paragraph. I know that when it comes to finances it's pretty useless speculating when we don't have any information about the numbers. You make a valid point, just like I could turn around and say they made a budget but given the lack of demand it would have led to massive losses, and by closing down the upper deck they're now back at a point where they're breaking even or at least turning a small profit. We simply don't know.

Good discussion!

[Ravi]

As an Argo fan, I have few positive feelings about David Braley these days although I have never thought that positively about Braley. I will always be grateful that Braley stepped up to save teams when nobody else would but the problem with Braley is that he is good at saving a franchise but horrible at growing it. The Lions were wandering in the wilderness between 1997 and 2002 when Braley had the great luck of Bob Ackles returning to the fold. The Lions' success between 2003 and 2008 had everything to do with Ackles and little to do with Braley. When Ackles died, it was almost predictable that the great work he had done would be undone by Braley and that is what has happened over the past seven years.

Sorry, Braley supporters, but David Braley needs to exit from this league as soon as possible. We need new ownership in both Toronto and Vancouver who will commit to growing the fan bases of both franchises rather than just be content with maximizing revenues from gradually diminishing crowds. I am extremely worried about my Argos but have also been concerned about the Lions since their move back to B.C. Place and I see no reason to stop worrying about their situation. Any way you slice this, going back to the lower bowl only is a significant step back for this proud franchise.

[B.C.FAN]

LU clarifies that the upper bowl isn't closed for the season, but it is closed for season ticketholders. Skulsky confirms the team will maintain its policy of not turning away fans, and will sell single-game tickets in the upper bowl if demand warrants, possibly as early as the home opener against Saskatchewan.

“We’re not going to the point where we’re going to say we have limited tickets. The (upper deck) isn’t closed. We will always have a ticket,” Skulsky said. “We are consolidating season-ticket holders to the lower bowl. Having everybody together is going to improve the fan experience and the ability to create a home-field advantage. We’re better off to have the concentration of fans in the lower bowl.”

Ullrich: B.C. Place isn’t half-empty, it’s half-full

[sj-roc]

As an Argo fan, I have few positive feelings about David Braley these days although I have never thought that positively about Braley. I will always be grateful that Braley stepped up to save teams when nobody else would but the problem with Braley is that he is good at saving a franchise but horrible at growing it. The Lions were wandering in the wilderness between 1997 and 2002 when Braley had the great luck of Bob Ackles returning to the fold. The Lions' success between 2003 and 2008 had everything to do with Ackles and little to do with Braley. When Ackles died, it was almost predictable that the great work he had done would be undone by Braley and that is what has happened over the past seven years.

Sorry, Braley supporters, but David Braley needs to exit from this league as soon as possible. We need new ownership in both Toronto and Vancouver who will commit to growing the fan bases of both franchises rather than just be content with maximizing revenues from gradually diminishing crowds. I am extremely worried about my Argos but have also been concerned about the Lions since their move back to B.C. Place and I see no reason to stop worrying about their situation. Any way you slice this, going back to the lower bowl only is a significant step back for this proud franchise.

Ravi, I saw something on argofans.com a few weeks ago that the estimated STH count in Tor is only like 1500 (yes, only two zeroes)? Man, if that's true it's pretty dire.

I agree with you on Ackles. I feared things would unravel although things haven't quite deteriorated to what they were immediately before his arrival. While it's a shame that we've squandered much of the growth he generated, our attendance for the last couple of years has actually hovered pretty close to the all-time historical franchise average. If Tedford can bring the wins and do it with an entertaining ball club it should at least help slow the skid but that could be a tall order as the QB position — what with Lulay's shoulder and a lack of backup experience — still remains a question mark, and IMHO this is largely why (along with coming off a GC hosting year) we're seeing so many non-renewals.

Is MLSE still in the picture as possible new Argo ownership? Who else would there be? Here in BC, there was a rumour started around 2013 that Skulsky would organise a consortium of local businessmen from among the Waterboys group to succeed Braley but I haven't heard much about this lately with DB's self-imposed 75th bday divestiture deadline now less than 15 months off.