Keeping roof open

[sj-roc]

I agree the Lions are pricing themselves out of the average fan's budget. I would like to see them lower the prices to attract more and younger fans.

Back in the Late 80's they use to have a VERY cheep season ticket for high school students. They need something like that.

More recently in 1997, the first season of Braley's ownership, there was reduced pricing for post-secondary students. It was part of a save-the-Lions-from-extinction ticket drive after the previous reign of error. I forget the exact amount for the full season, but it was something in the $100-150 range for a seat on the midfield stripe behind the Lions bench, halfway up in what is now the 400 level (upper deck). A student can only dream of such pricing today!

Prompted by this discussion of ticket price increases, I discovered that Statistics Canada maintains a Consumer Price Index that is relevant to this sort of thing; here's the localised data for BC:

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableau ... 4f-eng.htm

The relevant category for this discussion is "Other cultural and recreational services" for which the most recent CPI (April 2012, 2002 base year = 100) is 155.7. If my mathematical interpretation of these stats is correct, then it translates into ~4.5% average annual inflation and I think we could conclude the Lions are doing little to stem this. Note also from the same table that the BC CPI for ALL forms of recreation in April 2012 is only 98.3, meaning that in the last decade, the cost of recreation has generally resisted inflation and has even dropped somewhat over this time, in marked contrast to what we've seen with the cost of Lions tickets.

The nationally averaged figures can be found there, too (click on "Canada" under "In this series" on the left), and they show we're feeling a greater pinch that the rest of the country: 145.5 and about 3.8% annual inflation for "Other cultural and recreational services". For all forms of recreation, we lose again: the most recent national CPI figure is 95.9.

If you're among the many here who have offered your own anecdotes on ticket pricing, these figures do nothing to weaken your assertions.

[TheLionKing]

I agree the Lions are pricing themselves out of the average fan's budget. I would like to see them lower the prices to attract more and younger fans.

Back in the Late 80's they use to have a VERY cheep season ticket for high school students. They need something like that.

That's how my niece and nephews became interested in the BC Lions. Today they are ticket holders

[Zarquon]

As far as your opinion about 400 and 200, well, that is your opinion and one you are entitled to. I for one think it's a shame that a person sitting in a 400ish seat has the same price printed on their ticket as a person in the same 200ish seat. That is my opinion and nobody will ever be able to justify the reasoning for that.

I think you do have a point to an extent. The first couple of rows of the 400 level are some of the best seats in the house and should be priced as such (i.e. same as the 200 level) but several rows up they should drop the tier. I also think they should expand the pricing tiers similar to what the whitecaps have.

[Hambone]

I was at that soccer game and it was a nice place to watch a sporting event. I'm just not that into soccer though. I was walking by BC Place Saturday night and there was a Roger Waters concert. I saw a David Gilmour-led Pink Floyd concert in the 90's that I thought was good but I wonder how the Stadium was for a similar concert last Sat? Hopefully had the roof open but who knows? I read in todays Sun that it was a good gig and the stadium passed with flying colours! No question I want to watch as many games of BC Lions football, with the roof open.

The roof was closed for Roger Waters. The Wall was more a production than simply being a concert. I've heard Waters is very much a perfectionist bordering on anal when it comes to the fine details that would potentially affect the sound or lighting so critical for such a production. It was a spectacular show. It was hot in there but I think an open roof would've taken a bit away from the special effects both lighting and sound.

[notahomer]

I was at that soccer game and it was a nice place to watch a sporting event. I'm just not that into soccer though. I was walking by BC Place Saturday night and there was a Roger Waters concert. I saw a David Gilmour-led Pink Floyd concert in the 90's that I thought was good but I wonder how the Stadium was for a similar concert last Sat? Hopefully had the roof open but who knows? I read in todays Sun that it was a good gig and the stadium passed with flying colours! No question I want to watch as many games of BC Lions football, with the roof open.

The roof was closed for Roger Waters. The Wall was more a production than simply being a concert. I've heard Waters is very much a perfectionist bordering on anal when it comes to the fine details that would potentially affect the sound or lighting so critical for such a production. It was a spectacular show. It was hot in there but I think an open roof would've taken a bit away from the special effects both lighting and sound.

Thanks for sharing your My brother is the night desk clerk at a hotel and he told me he had lots of happy tourists stumbling in after the show all reporting it was awesome....

[Dan_Payne_fan!!]

I was at that soccer game and it was a nice place to watch a sporting event. I'm just not that into soccer though. I was walking by BC Place Saturday night and there was a Roger Waters concert. I saw a David Gilmour-led Pink Floyd concert in the 90's that I thought was good but I wonder how the Stadium was for a similar concert last Sat? Hopefully had the roof open but who knows? I read in todays Sun that it was a good gig and the stadium passed with flying colours! No question I want to watch as many games of BC Lions football, with the roof open.

The roof was closed for Roger Waters. The Wall was more a production than simply being a concert. I've heard Waters is very much a perfectionist bordering on anal when it comes to the fine details that would potentially affect the sound or lighting so critical for such a production. It was a spectacular show. It was hot in there but I think an open roof would've taken a bit away from the special effects both lighting and sound.

how was the sound quality?

i wonder if they would open the louveres(sp) but keep the roof closed if that would keep in the noise?

[Belize City Lion]

I think the Lions revenue strategy is that they feel there are 30-35K fans that will attend per game. Until they reach a point of diminishing returns that can be traced directly back to ticket prices, we will see gradual increases in the cost of tickets. Right now, crowds are 60-65% of capacity. If it was as simple as reducing prices 35-40% to sell the place out the Lions might do that. But it's never that simple. So from a bean-counter's perspective the Lions are probably doing the prudent thing by maximizing revenue from the loyal fan base they have today.

Personally however, I think they are making a mistake. If it was my team I would want to fill every seat possible, even if it meant a reduction in net profits short term. Why? For the long term viability of the franchise. By playing in a stadium that always has at least 35% of it's seats available the Lions will never reach that plateau where regular season games are "events". Season ticket holders will never have to worry about being left out in the cold, unable to go to games, if they relinquish their season tickets. The more casual fans who go to the game the more likely you will be to have repeat customers, and the more repeat customers you have the more likely you will be able to convert them into season ticket holders.

The CFL has made great strides in the past five years in terms of financial viability. It must be tempting for teams such as the Lions who finally find them selves in a positive cash flow situation to try to exploit the existing market, especially if they feel they have not maximized revenue from their existing customer base. But the history of the CFL (especially over the last 30 years) is one of extreme financial volatility. I think it is more important long term to grow the size of the market, rather than maximize the revenue you can extract from the existing market.

[Toppy Vann]

I think the Lions revenue strategy is that they feel there are 30-35K fans that will attend per game. Until they reach a point of diminishing returns that can be traced directly back to ticket prices, we will see gradual increases in the cost of tickets. Right now, crowds are 60-65% of capacity. If it was as simple as reducing prices 35-40% to sell the place out the Lions might do that. But it's never that simple. So from a bean-counter's perspective the Lions are probably doing the prudent thing by maximizing revenue from the loyal fan base they have today.

Personally however, I think they are making a mistake. If it was my team I would want to fill every seat possible, even if it meant a reduction in net profits short term. Why? For the long term viability of the franchise. By playing in a stadium that always has at least 35% of it's seats available the Lions will never reach that plateau where regular season games are "events". Season ticket holders will never have to worry about being left out in the cold, unable to go to games, if they relinquish their season tickets. The more casual fans who go to the game the more likely you will be to have repeat customers, and the more repeat customers you have the more likely you will be able to convert them into season ticket holders.

The CFL has made great strides in the past five years in terms of financial viability. It must be tempting for teams such as the Lions who finally find them selves in a positive cash flow situation to try to exploit the existing market, especially if they feel they have not maximized revenue from their existing customer base. But the history of the CFL (especially over the last 30 years) is one of extreme financial volatility. I think it is more important long term to grow the size of the market, rather than maximize the revenue you can extract from the existing market.

Excellent posts and insights. This would make an excellent MBA marketing research project.

It is definitely the right marketing questions.

I still think the summer season is a killer as even the game announcers slip into saying the CFL doesn't start until Labour Day.

Growing the game is absolutely essential as it would help stabilize player movements as they max. their contracts and the team finds or thinks they have found a cheaper guy who can do the job. Until the league gets rid of that kind of issue they always get the casual sport fan knocking them for this factor.

No easy answers but in this economy cheaper to me would have been better as long as they aren't giving the tickets away.

[David]

Very insightful post Belize City Lion. I wish someone in the media would ask Mr. Skulsky about his 'pricing strategy.' Perhaps the "fan" in both he and Mr. Braley has clouded their vision? I think you're being generous when you say 30-35 thousand will attend a game. Skulsky thinks they will be "around the 20,000 mark" in season tickets (read 19,000 and change), so I would put the guarantee number at about 27,000 - meaning staff is really going to have to hustle and hope the team succeeds on the field to bring it over 30K or approach 35K. I could be wrong of course (and hope I am), but I really think they've overshot the runway with this absurdly high 'low end' admission price, the $45 corners, and the lack of price variance the higher one sits in the stadium.

I think they're fine with the high end. There's always going to be demand (with a competitive team like this one) for "Club Lounge" seats and lower bowl "Coaches Sideline" seats (between the 35's). $125 and $85? Knock yourselves out. I even own one. But it's the casual fan that has been priced out of the market and who can now watch at home that I am worried about. The Canucks, with 19,000 seats and a ticket that is price inelastic can get away with year after year increases. The Lions, with a 54,000 seat inventory, can't.

It seems the Eskimos, who face the same inventory challenges the Lions do, keep prices relatively low to ensure larger crowds (and fans spending more money on team merchandise). They "get it." I would have a $20 or $25 admission at BCP and an end zone (or upper end zone) Student Section for less. As someone wisely said recently, "you don't make any money and / or create interest on an empty seat."


DH

[SammyGreene]

Some great insight here guys that I completely agree with. As David pointed out in an earlier post, 27,000 or 28,000 feels more like a half empty stadium and the atmosphere suffers somewhat for it. $45 for corner end zone (actually $53 per ticket with TM charges on top of it) is a complete price gouge given the entire end zone (from the goal line) was at one time all under same price category. I'm fully expecting to see pockets of empty seats in those sections.

One could even argue with a 19,000 to 20,000 season ticket base, the Lions could go back to opening the lower bowl only like they have done in the past. Yes it would piss off some season ticket holders in the 400 level given those seats low down provide a terrific sightline, however, getting the walk-up beyond the lower bowl capacity (29,000) is hardly going to be a certainty for each game. Given the ticket pricing in the upper bowl, the Lions have never really been serious about selling those seats to the casual fan anyways.

Bottom line, for a family of four to attend a Lions game today the cost would be $172 (including TM fees again) for the cheapest seats in the stadium without spending a dime on anything else. The cost for those same seats 3 years ago through the deal with 7-Eleven was $80.

[Hambone]

Soooo..............

cheapest ST point:

BCL - $260.00 - single game $35 - first row in the endzone is literally on top of the endzone.
EDM - $241.45 - single game $35 - note in one small corner of the endzone they offer Knothole adults and Knothole gang STs.
CGY - $210.00 - single game $30
SSK - $312.90 - single game $31 - note Riders do offer single game discounts for teens and children when accompanied by adults. They also offer single game discounts for seniors and students (ID required) but not between the 20 yard lines.
WPG - a bit of a pain to figure out with the season being split between 2 different stadiums although if I was to wager I'd bet on them playing the full season at CanadInns.
HAM - $155.00 - single game $22 - row 1 at the back of the endzone is 60' from the back of the endzone
TOR - $185.00 - single game $23
MTL - $198.00 - single game $22 - the track runs between the endzone and these seats.

Comparing ticket prices however is a case of comparing apples and oranges. Compared to BC Place the rest of the stadiums are dumps. The Esks offer great variety in pricing but the midfield seats they give a price break on wouldn't even be inside BC Place. The worst nosebleed in BCP is closer to the field than are the final 20 rows at Commonwealth. No stadium puts you farther away from the action than does Commonwealth. None of the cheapest seats in Montreal, Hamilton, Winnipeg, Calgary and Saskatchewan offer a proper seat with back. You're sitting on an aluminum bench for them. In fact I believe all seats in Mosaic, Molson and Ivor Wynne are bench style. I would submit while BC Place's pricing doesn't offer seating as cheap as some places it probably still offers the best bang for the buck in terms of overall value and creature comforts.

[Belize City Lion]

Interesting that Montreal has the third cheapest "cheap seat" as I believe their good seats are one of the most expensive in the league due to small capacity at their stadium.

I really think the Lions need to have a much cheaper "entry level" for season tickets. Even if it is a small section in the end zone without the regular season ticket perks. Something that would appeal to the customer who might pay $45/seat for 2 or 3 single game tickets who then realizes that for $150-$160 he can get a season ticket. Once you've got that customer as a season ticket holder you can up-sell them to better more expensive seats with value added benefits.

[David]

Soooo..............

cheapest ST point:

BCL - $260.00 - single game $35 - first row in the endzone is literally on top of the endzone.
EDM - $241.45 - single game $35 - note in one small corner of the endzone they offer Knothole adults and Knothole gang STs.
CGY - $210.00 - single game $30
SSK - $312.90 - single game $31 - note Riders do offer single game discounts for teens and children when accompanied by adults. They also offer single game discounts for seniors and students (ID required) but not between the 20 yard lines.
WPG - a bit of a pain to figure out with the season being split between 2 different stadiums although if I was to wager I'd bet on them playing the full season at CanadInns.
HAM - $155.00 - single game $22 - row 1 at the back of the endzone is 60' from the back of the endzone
TOR - $185.00 - single game $23
MTL - $198.00 - single game $22 - the track runs between the endzone and these seats.

Comparing ticket prices however is a case of comparing apples and oranges. Compared to BC Place the rest of the stadiums are dumps. The Esks offer great variety in pricing but the midfield seats they give a price break on wouldn't even be inside BC Place. The worst nosebleed in BCP is closer to the field than are the final 20 rows at Commonwealth. No stadium puts you farther away from the action than does Commonwealth.

What you fail to mention is that those Knothole tickets at Commonwealth are also available as single game tickets. They're $27.00 each for adults, and $9.00 each for youth. Sure they're corner end-zones, but they face north at the Jumbotron. The ALSO have a Sobey's/IGA section in which tickets are available for $21 each. I've been to every CFL stadium save Regina, and I paint a much more positive picture of Commonwealth than you based on my experience there.

In terms of 'big league' feel, access to transit, stadium layout, and overall enjoyment, it might be my favourite CFL stadium next to ours. The only drawback is the track but I don't find you're miles from the action because of the vertical incline at which the stadium was built makes you feel like you're 'on top' of the action.

Another thing to consider, residents of other cities have a higher disposable income for football tickets. Not only are our ticket prices high, but we pay about $1.42 a litre for gas, Edmonton residents pay $1.12. Our average housing price is $752,000, in Edmonton it's $318,000 (as of January 2012) etc.


DH

[B.C.FAN]

I consider my $26 end zone seats (actually $31.50 with HST and fees) a bargain compared to comparable seats elsewhere and particularly for other sports. I'm within a few feet of the playing field, close enough to feel a part of the action, catch an occasional ball and have a conversation with players and coaches as they pass by. Floor seats at Grizzlies games in the 1990s offered comparable sightlines and amenities at a cost of $214.

What the Lions need is a bargain two-for-one or family package such as those offered through Seven-11, Safeway or Shell in the past to attract price-sensitive casual fans.

[MikeAK]

Great participation in the thread, everyone! Some great ideas and interesting opinions from all. Hopefully somebody who can actually do something about these "issues" has been by to view and read the thread. Doubtful but it's a nice thought.

At the end of the day what these higher prices and lack of pricing variances are doing is keeping fans and more importantly the NEW FANS away from the stadium. The diehard fan will always be there but they don't live forever. It is a harsh reality and I don't mean to offend anyone here but it is reality none the less. The Lion's need to make sure they continue to have new blood coming in or eventually they will be left with new generations of fans who never really had a chance to bond with the team because they couldn't afford to go to the games. They will be left with fans that grew up watching the game on TV and really don't have a desire to go to the stadium. Over the last few years the Lion's have been facing a new challenge unlike anything before and it is called High-definition. HD has changed the way sports is viewed on TV. True, it will never take the place of being there live, but what it has done is make it so there is now a solid alternative to going to the stadium. TSN has done a damn fine job with their CFL production and CFL games look golden on my 60in TV in HD glory. I think the Lions need to take a serious step back and look at what they could be doing long term instead of looking at the short term gain. Long term they may just in fact be stunting the growth of new diehard fans. The way it is right I can't see how a casual fan is willing to pay the prices when they can sit at home and watch the game in HD. In their minds they saved some cash and got a better view. What people forget is that a lot of diehard fans were casual fans at one point and it was when they started going to the stadiums, getting to talk with players/coaches, talking with fellow Lion's fanatics and actually feeling like it was their team that turned them into diehards. Going to the stadium is a huge experience for some and if you never get there you'll never know what you're missing.

I'm an Island guy and the prices are to the point where I can only get over for the early starts during the regular season because having to stay over puts me into a price range that I am not willing to pay for a regular season game. I know this is just my opinion but I grew up on the Lion's and to me it has always been a working mans event. It was never an event I had to plan for, if I wanted to go I just went. Not so much anymore.