Joe Kapp v Angelo Mosca at charity banquet

[Blitz]

I don't see the Kapp/Mosca incident as an embarrassment to the CFL...I think it added colour to Grey Cup week.

Kapp's comments that Willie has a dog named Angelo that he kicks every day and shoving the flowers into Mosca's face triggered the incident. Mosca didn't need to swing his cane but a reaction was understandable.

It also doesn't matter what age they are...the fire still burns in both.... and the old rivalry and feelings over the 1963 incident still resonate. They still feel the passion.

Joe Kapp looks like he has a great right hand......although perhaps he should have gone with the jump right hend lead...I remember Joe Kapp's leaping jump passes off the rollout well.

Neither was hurt and the incident just will go into Grey Cup week lore.. the Mosca /Fleming incident has been mentioned often during Grey Cup week often for decades after...prior to this incident so its not as it had been forgotten.

Joe Kapp was a really tough quarterback whose competitiveness and toughness were his best attributes as a quarterback. Mosca also played the game with passion and toughness also.

I think they should have a rematch next time the Leos play in a Grey Cup game in Vancouver!!

[Buonosjanet69]

I thought the same as you, thinking that this was going to add spice to the match but i have to agree I felt embarrassed for both of those guys once I actually saw the video. Imagine if Hamilton was playing instead of Winnipeg? lol

In any case, it will add some more notoriety to this Cup. This was in Vancouver, right? Vancouver does that to you

[Sir Purrcival]

I too without seeing it thought it sounded funny until I actually saw it. I am afraid I must concur with the embarrassed faction as well. These were two great football players and when I watched the video I was reminded too easily of how sometimes the elderly don't realize the scope of the situation that they have created nor recover very quickly. Listening to them speak afterwards was just hard as they were both rambling and seemed out of touch with what had just happened.

Mosca always was a first class P#$#k and I think he still is but now he has even less control due to his age and health. There can be no justification for that cane swing. He came within a inch of doing real damage. As it was he took Kapps glasses off. They are both lucky that neither one of them ended up in hospital after the fact or that we aren't talking about some kind of tragedy this weekend. If getting some flowers shoved at him is enough to provoke Mosca into swinging that stick like a weapon, then I honestly think he might be a bit dangerous. He always did have a short fuse. Neither showed a lot of good grace. Makes we wonder if they will be welcome at future Alumni events.

[Dieter]

Being from Winnipeg originally I didn't see the hit till last year when Angelo spoke at a fundraiser for our Sun scholarship dinner.

I am biased as I was lucky enough to spend a brief lunch with him one on one. Seeing the football player/wrestler tell war stories then immediatley go into Grandpa Mosca when my 18 year old daughter came by was amazing. I met a man who is all about family and love. Amazing man who spoke as eloquently to our players after practice as you could imagine about life.

But I also heard him talk football and there is some bitterness on his part over that hit. He said he tried to avoid Fleming (to a degree I am sure) and that if he really wanted to hurt Fleming he could have killed him. He says he hears about that hit every day and much of what Kapp says obviously gets back to him so I imagine thats where the "shove it up your ___ came from)

As for the altercation, after Kapp shoved the flower in Mosca's face and he pushed it away Fleming actually threw the first punch, not Mosca.

Angelo Mosca can barely stand up and Joe Kapp punched him.

I'm in the Lions section so I am sure many will disagree with me...but he's a compete jerk as far as I'm concerned

[WestCoastJoe]

These are not normal people. They are old warriors. With the scars to prove it. And the memories.

Without their combative spirit they would not have been able to survive the way they did amidst the mayhem of pro football.

As Wally Buono pointed out, they are from a different generation. Take no prisoners. The opponent is your enemy. No family get-together with opponents before the game. No prayers on the field with the opposition after the game.

No one liked to see the ill will, poor sportsmanship, animosity or the physical attacks (hitting out with the cane, punching). Ooops, well, that is, no doubt some fans would like that. Not me.

And yet it is very much in character for these two guys. It was a big organizational mistake getting them together at the banquet. A big mistake.

It seems both these guys have long memories. And they do not forgive easily. Joe Kapp has loyalty to Willie Fleming. Angelo Mosca points out that he could have killed Fleming, if he had not flown over his prone body, instead of landing on him, and driving him into the ground full force.

So, for me, I just chalk it off to old warriors. It is not an embarrassment to me. Angelo Mosca was a pro wrestler after his football career. This dustup pales in comparison to the embarrassment of that for me. As much as I liked Joe Kapp when he led the Lions to the Grey Cup victory in 1964, he can be a blockhead also.

Times change. By today's sensibilities, these guys are dinosaurs. And yet, this dustup will be looked on in the future as an entertaining part of Grey Cup folklore. Bringing forth chuckles. Not by the media yet. But it will happen. And the legend will fit right in with these two characters.

Embarrassing? Well, for some, sure. Not for me. Nah. In fact, as a Lions' fan back in 1964, this brings some closure for me. We felt robbed back then, in 1963, even though our same team won it all in 1964. I don't actually mind that Joe popped Angelo. He did it for Willie. And he did it after Angelo swung his cane at him, and hit him. If they had buried the hatchet that would have been fine also.

Do sports fans mind a dustup? Do they mind when Rob Murphy forearm shivers Fred Perry after Perry late hits Dave Dickenson? I didn't mind that. When you go to war, you want guys like Joe Kapp and Angelo Mosca in the foxhole beside you. Guys like that carry a passion and a fire. It is with them throughout the rest of their lives. They are not suddenly going to be gentlemen. As I said, it was just dumb to put them together at a banquet. And then the dustup. Not an embarrassment for this fan. It is part of the folklore.

[Toppy Vann]

I think Wally Buono who is close enough to that era he'd know these characters well captures the sentiments of many of the older fan base such as I.

CFL legends Kapp, Mosca brawl on stage
Punch-throwing, cane-swinging melee in B.C.

By: Cam Cole

Posted: 11/27/2011

Some excerpts:

First from none other than Travis Lulay who unlike Paul Mc had no issues it seems:

Is it hard to believe? Knowing Joe Kapp, that story didn't surprise me a ton," said quarterback Travis Lulay. "I don't know Angelo Mosca, but I did have a chance to meet Joe, and you can see the fire's still there.

"That speaks to the intensity of the game, and how much that memory will last. I thought that was a pretty cool story, to tell you the truth."

Lulay on him taking on a Bomber. Funny stuff:

Asked which Blue Bomber he could even imagine wanting to take a swing at, half a century from now, Travis Lulay demurred.

"Take a guess," someone urged.

"Take a guess? I hope I can wrestle Buck (Pierce, the Winnipeg QB) some day,'' he said.

As he walked out of the room, a reporter said: "Odell Willis?"

"I almost said it," Lulay said.

Actually, he did.

The Grey Cup? Oh, yes.

Wally's comments:

"Honestly, God bless both of them," Lions head coach and GM Wally Buono said Saturday. "I thought Italians were tough, but Mexicans..."

Buono first disqualified himself from comment, since he didn't see the fight, but added: "I will say one thing. That generation, I believe, is tremendously tough. Just after the war, what their fathers taught them, how they were raised, what the mentality was -- we can't comprehend it. So I think you've got to cut them a little bit of slack.

"I just don't see those guys being all buddy-buddy before a game.

"Today it's like...families welcome out there. So you know what? Not a big deal, let's move on."

Nearly 50 years later, the memory still burns in Joe Kapp.

It is different today. Players are more buddy buddy than before - even in the CFL friendships cross teams more than in the NFL they say. The old days no one was friendly with an opponent. Today it is very common.

[WestCoastJoe]

Hey all,

I stated earlier that I believed the whole thing between Kapp & Mosca was a put-up job to promote Mosca's new book. I thought that because of the profile of both of these former players (especially Kapp in the USA) the incident was likely to receive media coverage, (and not just sports media coverage) in both Canada and USA, and that this was a brilliant way for Mosca to emerge from larger story of the Grey Cup and get some media time. As a former wrestler, Mosca knows a thing or two about behaving outrageously to get some media attention.

I still think that this was a put up job, and that both parties are in on it. I'm also going to bet that Kapp writes a book before the next Grey Cup.

However, it may just be possible that Kapp wasn't in on it, but that Mosca planned it all along, knowing the sort of stories that would result from a fracas based on a late hit from 1963. Note that just when the story was about to die, Mosca did a further interview for TSN (from a bookstore no less) that aired on the weekend of the 10th, two weeks after the Grey Cup.

http://watch.tsn.ca/cfl-news-and-highlights/#clip583694

And today, he's on Dr. Phil.

http://drphil.com/shows/show/1754/

Call me cynical, but this has turned into a brilliant viral (and now mainstream) marketing campaign.

Cheers,

James

Well, most adults have some cynicism towards media events, with good reason.

However my reading on the situation being unstaged and full of real hostility goes something like this ...

Mosca could not be proud to get punched out and kicked in the ass. That would not be part of a planned set to, for a self described bad boy bully.

Kapp was visibly very unsure of what had just happened. His voice and body language showed it. He was a bit shaken, exactly as after a real fight, with the adrenalin still in his body.

Mosca was very much subdued and out of character after he got his butt kicked and his head punched.

IMO a planned set to would have a more even scrap.

How would Kapp benefit from a Mosca book? IMO it is Mosca's book alone, no financial sharing with Kapp.

Having followed Kapp's career from the days with the Lions through the time with the Vikings it does not fit his profile to fake something like this. Plus his ill will towards Mosca totally fits with the ill will felt by many Willie Fleming fans towards Mosca.

Mosca's pride would not allow him to fake getting punched in the head (real punch), and worse, kicked in the ass. Plus the strikes with the cane were actually dangerous.

Can't buy it, James. IMO it was exactly how it looked to me in the video. A nasty scrap between two old dinosaurs, warriors from 45 years ago, who do not forgive and forget.

[TheLionKing]

http://blogs.theprovince.com/2011/12/16 ... h-dr-phil/

[David]

What disturbs me most is that the B.C. Lions may have perceived this incident as a tarnish to their reputation. While the spin could be the "fighting spirit" of their brand, and the legacy of their first Grey Cup appearance (with THE HIT on Willie Fleming still igniting passions nearly 50 years later), I have this sinking feeling that it may be the last we've seen of Joe around here. And that would be very sad.

Joe Kapp was before my time, but as a someone with a keen interest in the club's history, I recognize that he was the Lion's first true local hero (along with Willie). What's more, he has made numerous local appearances on behalf of the club in the last several years (most notably the Orange Helmet Awards dinner in March). It would be a shame to cut ties with a legend.



DH

[Toppy Vann]

I think Wally Buono who is close enough to that era he'd know these characters well captures the sentiments of many of the older fan base such as I.

CFL legends Kapp, Mosca brawl on stage
Punch-throwing, cane-swinging melee in B.C.

By: Cam Cole

Posted: 11/27/2011

Some excerpts:

First from none other than Travis Lulay who unlike Paul Mc had no issues it seems:

Is it hard to believe? Knowing Joe Kapp, that story didn't surprise me a ton," said quarterback Travis Lulay. "I don't know Angelo Mosca, but I did have a chance to meet Joe, and you can see the fire's still there.

"That speaks to the intensity of the game, and how much that memory will last. I thought that was a pretty cool story, to tell you the truth."

Lulay on him taking on a Bomber. Funny stuff:

Asked which Blue Bomber he could even imagine wanting to take a swing at, half a century from now, Travis Lulay demurred.

"Take a guess," someone urged.

"Take a guess? I hope I can wrestle Buck (Pierce, the Winnipeg QB) some day,'' he said.

As he walked out of the room, a reporter said: "Odell Willis?"

"I almost said it," Lulay said.

Actually, he did.

The Grey Cup? Oh, yes.

Wally's comments:

"Honestly, God bless both of them," Lions head coach and GM Wally Buono said Saturday. "I thought Italians were tough, but Mexicans..."

Buono first disqualified himself from comment, since he didn't see the fight, but added: "I will say one thing. That generation, I believe, is tremendously tough. Just after the war, what their fathers taught them, how they were raised, what the mentality was -- we can't comprehend it. So I think you've got to cut them a little bit of slack.

"I just don't see those guys being all buddy-buddy before a game.

"Today it's like...families welcome out there. So you know what? Not a big deal, let's move on."

Nearly 50 years later, the memory still burns in Joe Kapp.

It is different today. Players are more buddy buddy than before - even in the CFL friendships cross teams more than in the NFL they say. The old days no one was friendly with an opponent. Today it is very common.

I think that Buono and Lulay got this one right.