Split from Ian Smart thread

[Toppy Vann]

Great story, yes.

How sad it is that so many are still struggling in North America even today.

I heard Bill Clinton say that 2 out of 3 American families today are struggling to pay their bills.

Kind of makes you wonder how they have US$2 billion a month just to spend fighting the war part of their Iraq battle when you read stories like this.

[Rammer]

Awesome perseverance from Smart. His athletic ability kept him from straying down the wrong road, hope that all continues well for him, considering what he has already gone through in his life.

As for the US government spending, you have to think that those dollars would/could be better spent even without the crisis at home. Yet that would not be the American way, as military might is reflective of economic advantages.

[Wakesbetterthanyou]

Great story, yes.

How sad it is that so many are still struggling in North America even today.

I heard Bill Clinton say that 2 out of 3 American families today are struggling to pay their bills.

Kind of makes you wonder how they have US$2 billion a month just to spend fighting the war part of their Iraq battle when you read stories like this.

lol, how about the 800 billion (or is it million, whatever, its a huge number)they are gonna spend to keep the banking institutions afloat??? Hmmm, maybe the carlyle group (owned by pres bush) can assist the country...considering it has made over 6.5 billion off of the war that never should have taken place.

[Toppy Vann]

You are one smart guy wakes. Not very many know the Bush family connection to profit making from terrorism but you do.

"How will President George W. Bush personally make millions (if not billions) from the War on Terror and Iraq? The old fashioned way. He'll inherit it.
Meet The Carlyle Group"
Former World Leaders and Washington Insiders Making Billions in the War on Terrorism
http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html

They are trying to get Congress to bail out these institutions to the tune of $700 Billion US which if it doesn't work and sells off quickly, watch out, as the whole world is going down with the Americans. As Bill Clinton told David Lettermen, this is important as it has to work or else. But he is adding the rider that the US gov't should do what it did during the depression when they set up the Home Owner Loan Corporation which ended making money. He is saying that they will have to get the financiers to rewrite mortgages payments and take them back to affordable levels or the economy will be done like dinner.

[Wakesbetterthanyou]

You are one smart guy wakes. Not very many know the Bush family connection to profit making from terrorism but you do.

"How will President George W. Bush personally make millions (if not billions) from the War on Terror and Iraq? The old fashioned way. He'll inherit it.
Meet The Carlyle Group"
Former World Leaders and Washington Insiders Making Billions in the War on Terrorism
http://www.hereinreality.com/carlyle.html

They are trying to get Congress to bail out these institutions to the tune of $700 Billion US which if it doesn't work and sells off quickly, watch out, as the whole world is going down with the Americans. As Bill Clinton told David Lettermen, this is important as it has to work or else. But he is adding the rider that the US gov't should do what it did during the depression when they set up the Home Owner Loan Corporation which ended making money. He is saying that they will have to get the financiers to rewrite mortgages payments and take them back to affordable levels or the economy will be done like dinner.

I doubt you wanna get me started on the war on "terror". Most everyone by now knows, if they've studied it, that 9/11 was not started by anyone outside the united states. The "war" is about controlling oil to in order control china and india, two countries that are now becoming industrial (industrial nations depend on oil) , bush collects two fold this way. Anyone who doubts this, i encourage that you read the PNAC accord, in which it states taht turning the us into the global power, unapposed by all, will require a catastrophic and catalytic event, like a new pearl harbor. One year later, the tower came down (an obvious demoltion). But this is lionbackers, not conspiracy.com lol.

[KnowItAll]

Jesus said we would always have the poor. Doesnt matter how much or how little you spend on war, there will always be the poor. Cutting back on war spending and putting the money into the country will help a few people, but do little for the big picture. There will always be the poor.

[bclions16]

Great story, yes.

How sad it is that so many are still struggling in North America even today.

I heard Bill Clinton say that 2 out of 3 American families today are struggling to pay their bills.

Kind of makes you wonder how they have US$2 billion a month just to spend fighting the war part of their Iraq battle when you read stories like this.

I'm no pacifist, and actually agree with SOME military involvement in the Middle East, but my right wing leanings don't attach themselves to this war.

I wish it was 2 billion a month! Recent report are between 9 and 12 billion per month!

[bclions16]

I doubt you wanna get me started on the war on "terror". Most everyone by now knows, if they've studied it, that 9/11 was not started by anyone outside the united states. The "war" is about controlling oil to in order control china and india, two countries that are now becoming industrial (industrial nations depend on oil) , bush collects two fold this way. Anyone who doubts this, i encourage that you read the PNAC accord, in which it states taht turning the us into the global power, unapposed by all, will require a catastrophic and catalytic event, like a new pearl harbor. One year later, the tower came down (an obvious demoltion). But this is lionbackers, not conspiracy.com lol.

Most everyone by now knows, if they've studied it, that 9/11 was not started by anyone outside the united states.

Quite the opposite, sorry. I kindly suggest you do more research on it and not rely on dodgy website for your facts! Ever notice that the conspiracy websites ALWAYS seem to look crappy like they were made by some colour blind person that can't figure out HTML or decide on a font size?

like a new pearl harbor

While I don't agree with this, it is at least plausible that the US could have prevented the attack with information they had in advance. Sadly a broken intelligence apparatus and bureaucracy, and not conspiracy may have been to blame. Also, some still insist that the US knew they were going to be attacked at Pearl Harbor and let it happen to justify entering WW2.

(an obvious demoltion)

Every kook that claims this has long been proven wrong.

I think the war on terror has been bungled, but only the extreme loony conspiracy theorists think the US attacked themselves! The US isn't controlling the oil in the Middle East, when in fact their Middle Eastern "allies" are fleecing the US! The only positive for the US (and the rest of us westerners that are just as "guilty" as Americans for our oil based economies) is that they are keeping Middle East oil control AWAY from Russia and China. The three options for Mid East oil control; US/Western control, Russian/Chinese control, or middle Eastern control. Right now the US is maintaining the status quo of Middle Eastern control, and certainly not making enough money from it. If some US oil companies are making a profit, thank God, otherwise there would be nothing keeping this economy afloat. If the US is so evil, then they would just take all of Iraq and Kuwait's oil for free or impose a steep discount instead of buying it at OPEC prices!

This argument tends to get polarizing, I strongly believe I'm in the rational middle ground. I don't think it's all a big conspiracy, and I don't think the Bush administration's actions are all justified either.

If the US was to attack themselves they would have set up Iraq and Hussein to take the fall, not Al Qaeda. Yes they ended up attacking Iraq anyway, but if you can pull off a conspiracy like that, you would have framed Iraq a little better. if they wanted to create an enemy and justify a war, they would have blow up some of their own ships or crashed fighter jets far from millions of witnesses in downtown NYC. Heck, if they can attack themselves, they certainly could have easily planted some WMD in Iraq.

Far from being the master conspiracists, the Bush administration is clumsy and naive. The were sadly wrong when they genuinely thought the Iraq was would be easy and quick, and that WMDs would be found everywhere.

Also Toppy, I don't give much credence to the Bush/Bin Laden theories either. Bin Laden comes from a rich and powerful Saudi family, they stand to make lots of money with a strong US economy. Osama is estranged from them. The parents of a murderer aren't guilty just because they are related are they?

Former wold leaders, Bushes or not, all seem to have a way of benefiting from good times and bad. Of course the leverage their influence! But it's not exclusive or new to the Bushes. These guys will be making money no matter what, and will continue to do so under a President Obama.

For every Bush conspiracy theory, I can find a Clinton one. Vince Foster anyone?

Oh geeze, I've written too much. I'll go back to Canadian democracy and football now...

[bclions16]

One last thing... even the noted war protesting, political dissident, liberal Noam Chomsky ridicules the notion that the 911 attacks were staged.

[bclions16]

Jesus said we would always have the poor. Doesnt matter how much or how little you spend on war, there will always be the poor. Cutting back on war spending and putting the money into the country will help a few people, but do little for the big picture. There will always be the poor.

Very true. Saving the US economy is important to save the middle class, but there will be poor people regardless. There were poor people under democrats Kennedy, Johnson, Carter and Clinton, and there will be poor people under Obama - war or not.

[KnowItAll]

I would personally prefer them to withdraw from irag and spend the same resources, dollar and manpower in afganistan. Its not impossible to get complete control of all of that country from the taliban, it just takes full 100% effort, unencumbered by damn war protesters, same as they could have won in vietnam, if they could have went at it with everything they got.

[Toppy Vann]

BCLions16- the $2 billion is the pure Iraq fighting costs as provided by the US gov't. Yes, there is more cost.

To the guy who dismissed the poor because there will always be some poor, that is true, but that doesn't diminish a nation's duty to provide education, health care and basics to its own folks first. Charity begins at home.

As to the US attacked themselves, that is not something that I suggested nor is that on any website I produced materials on.

I am far from a conspiracy theorist on any subject including that this was a fight for oil per se versus Bush's desire to topple a tyrant and do the job his daddy wisely chose not to attempt when he was President (because as his dad's book says - there was no exit strategy).

[Jason Jiménez]

BCLions16- the $2 billion is the pure Iraq fighting costs as provided by the US gov't. Yes, there is more cost.

To the guy who dismissed the poor because there will always be some poor, that is true, but that doesn't diminish a nation's duty to provide education, health care and basics to its own folks first. Charity begins at home.

As to the US attacked themselves, that is not something that I suggested nor is that on any website I produced materials on.

I am far from a conspiracy theorist on any subject including that this was a fight for oil per se versus Bush's desire to topple a tyrant and do the job his daddy wisely chose not to attempt when he was President (because as his dad's book says - there was no exit strategy).

I don't disagree with you, however, education and healthcare are not enumerated anywhere in the US Constituion. None of the brilliant minds that congregated in Philadelphia could've have envisaged an era with HMO's, insurance companies, and rising costs of healthcare. The amendment process takes far too long to produce any real results which would allow citizens access to publically supported healthcare. Healthcare, imo, is tantamount to national security, which we're huge on. Everything we do these days is in the sacrosanct name of national security...

I'm a firm believer and proponent of Aristotle's belief that "the purpose of the state is to educate the people -- to make them virtuous. Virtue is the life principle of the state. The goal of the state is to educate with a view toward its own institutions (to preserve them) - political education of all citizens...[A]ll who have meditated on the art of governing mankind have been convinced that the fate of empires depends on the education of youth

The Founders believed in limited government and were weary of government intrusion in the lives of its citizens. Fast foward a few centuries and we see that the (US) government has developed a cancer, and a financial pesitience to the consternation of the taxpayer: bureaucracies. There are over 200 bureaucracies in the US government today, many of which are unaccountable to the People.

[Soundy]

I think the war on terror has been bungled,

Just jumping in to pick a small nit here: it's terrorISM.

Assuming you give any credence to all the "war on ______" phrases to begin with, "war on terror" is meaningless. Terror is, if anything, a state of mind. It's not good OR evil.

TerrorISM, on the other hand...

[bclions16]

BCLions16- the $2 billion is the pure Iraq fighting costs as provided by the US gov't. Yes, there is more cost.

To the guy who dismissed the poor because there will always be some poor, that is true, but that doesn't diminish a nation's duty to provide education, health care and basics to its own folks first. Charity begins at home.

As to the US attacked themselves, that is not something that I suggested nor is that on any website I produced materials on.

I am far from a conspiracy theorist on any subject including that this was a fight for oil per se versus Bush's desire to topple a tyrant and do the job his daddy wisely chose not to attempt when he was President (because as his dad's book says - there was no exit strategy).

Oh I understand you weren't the conspiracy guy, I was making that comment to Wakeisbetterthanyou, but I was unclear.

I agree with the poor comment, and yes a nation should make every REASONABLE effort to mitigate poverty, but realize that it won't be eliminated. Often so much time and effort can be devoted to such a cause that the middle class gets squeezed.