To be perfectly honest, no war is winnable in the traditional sense of the word these days. Looking back to even WWII, the beginning seeds of modern terrorism were sown by the Resistance in France. Small, hit a run tactics, no visible targets to strike and so on.
Jesse Ventura, the former wrestler, come Governor of Minnesota and former Navy Seal concluded that Iraq was just like Vietnam and based his pronouncement on one simple question. According to returning troops he talked to, He asked "Could you distinguish between the enemy and friend?". The answer was a universal "No".
Afghanistan is really no different. I don't doubt that much of the populace doesn't want the Taliban running things otherwise, it would have gotten much messier for foreign troops much more quickly. But that does not mean that patience for a settled outcome is limitless. Just as people in this country have questioned "What is being accomplished", so too are those questions being asked by Afghanis.
And unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a shortage of people in the region who are willing to press their agenda's by the use of a suicide attack or roadside bomb. I am of the opinion that we could be there 50 years and this would still be a problem. The only goal that I see worth pursuing at this point is self-sufficiency for the Afghani Government to allow them to continue the fight which will go on long after we are gone. In short, we are trying to apply some western ideas to a region that has never played by these rules. Tribal warfare and religious fundamentalism have always been a part of that region. The difference now is really one of sophistication. What once was restricted to small regional conflicts has evolved both in scale and efficiency. The sword and primitive rifle has been replaced with rocket launchers, heavy calibre automatic weapons and the ability to electronically reach out to others who share the same ideals of terror sharing knowledge and technique along the way.
If we are lucky, perhaps we can prop up the Afghani's long enough to be able to deal with their own domestic problems but it has all the earmarks of another Iran, or El Salvador or Nicaragua. After we are gone, the enemies will still be there, the local government will require support in $$$ and arms to stay afloat and eventually, it will all collapse as that administration gets out of hand in its attempts to retain power. I hope that isn't the way it unfolds but will we be looking at the situation in 20 years asking ourselves how could we have supported such a government?
Aghan War to Cost Canadians $22 Billion
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Sir Purrcival
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Oh, this Khandahar hospital? We certainly need more of this. It is not as good as you suggest it is.MacNews wrote:Wow. The Taliban? Really?But the Taliban government did not attack the United States. Our old ally, Osama bin Laden, did. Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are not the same organization
Do you really want the Taliban back in power? Why, so they can destroy the Kandahar hospital? Destroy the improvements we are making the to university? Force women to sit at home for their entire life?
Well they weren't fibbing, they're sure activist all-right.
http://www.senliscouncil.net/modules/about_us
By Roger Annis
A respected international think tank has delivered another in a string of devastating critiques of Canada’s claim to be helping improve the lot of the people of Afghanistan. The Senlis Council says that Canada’s claim to be delivering life-saving medical and other aid there is a lie.
The Canadian International Development Agency (CIDA) says it spent $39 million in Kandahr last year and another $100 million in the rest of Afghanistan. Senlis conducted an extensive investigation into these claims. “We were not able to see any substantial impact of CIDA’s work in Kandahar and, as a matter of fact, we saw many instances of the extreme suffering of the Afghan people,” reported Nadine MacDonald, president and lead field researcher of the council at a news conference on August 29.
MacDonald described the council’s search into claims by the CIDA that it has provided several millions of dollars for a maternity clinic at the Mirwais Hospital in Kandahar City. When it visited the hospital, it found no such clinic. It did find 28 injured and starving children sharing eight beds and whose needs were being paid for out of the pockets of Afghan doctors who themselves complained about the total absence of foreign aid for their work.
This is not the first such horror story from Mirwais Hospital. In a CanWest News story dated February 17, 2007, Vancouver paramedic Edward McCormick gave a similarly disturbing report. In January, in a mission sponsored by the Senlis Council, he spent one month examining conditions in hospitals in Kandahar and British-occupied Hellman province. Conditions in the hospitals shocked him.
Kandahar’s main hospital (Mirwais), he reported, “is filthy and there is absolutely no medical equipment to be found anywhere.” Patients, including children, are dying needlessly from war wounds.
In a particularly damning comment on the Canadian military, McCormick says, “There is no sign of foreign aid in those hospitals.”
“The foreign army doctors have never bothered to go over and say hello.” Canada’s lavish home base in Kandahar is only a few kilometers up the road from Mirwais.
-----------------------------------
The people of Afghanistan are electing Taliban to office in the democratic elections overseen by countries like Canada.
If you read some of Esprit de Corps you will learn that some of the Taliban fighters are elected members of the opposition.
The mistake you are making McNews is that Afghanistan is not our country. They can elect who they want.
What Canadians need to do more of is focus on our own country and fix some of the problems at home like the drugs in our streets that is responsible for so much crime. The worst of the drugs for crimes like B&Es, stolen cars, etc is heroin. This is the major export crop of Afghans - drugs! Our troops in Afghanistan no longer destroy their crops now that they are no longer looking for Bin Laden because it makes more Taliban fighters if they do. Now they just fight our soldiers AFTER the crops are in and the drugs are on the way to streets of North America.
MacNews you need to worry more about the cess pool in our cities and communities that originates in Afghanistan over the hospital in Kandahar. That is nice line that might resonate well with some folks but for me, I want our streets and communities to be a lot safer than they are now.
If they were get off their dumb arses and buy their poppy crops for ethical drugs like morphine, I'd be a lot more sympathetic, but the nice people using the nice Kandahar hospital make more money off illegal drugs so the west simply ignores the problem.
Last edited by Toppy Vann on Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Toppy Vann
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Now this is a surprise. British commander concludes that "the war against the Taliban cannot be won." I think the Russians could have told the Brits that and saved them lives and a lot of money.
Certainly most countries in Europe who are NATO members realized that and pretty much have avoided the fight by keeping the troops there out of harm's way and in the compounds.
The other factoid here is that he suggests that sitting down with them and talking is a good thing.
=======================
British commander says war in Taliban cannot be won
Reuters Published: Sunday, October 05, 2008
Fabrizio Bensch/Reuters
LONDON -- Britain's commander in Afghanistan has said the war against the Taliban cannot be won, the Sunday Times reported.
It quoted Brigadier Mark Carleton-Smith as saying in an interview that if the Taliban were willing to talk, then that might be "precisely the sort of progress" needed to end the insurgency.
"We're not going to win this war. It's about reducing it to a manageable level of insurgency that's not a strategic threat and can be managed by the Afghan army," he said.
He said his forces had "taken the sting out of the Taliban for 2008" but that troops may well leave Afghanistan with there still being a low level of insurgency.
NATO commanders and diplomats have been saying for some time that the Taliban insurgency cannot be defeated by military means alone and that negotiations with the militants will ultimately be needed to bring an end to the conflict.
"If the Taliban were prepared to sit on the other side of the table and talk about a political settlement, then that's precisely the sort of progress that concludes insurgencies like this," Mr. Carleton-Smith said. "That shouldn't make people uncomfortable."
Violence in Afghanistan has increased to its worst level since 2001, when U.S.-led forces overthrew the ruling Taliban following the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States.
A senior Taliban commander on Friday rejected reconciliation with what he called the "puppet" Afghan government.
Mullah Brother, who served as a top military commander while the Taliban were in power, repeated the Taliban's war aim of fighting till the more than 70,000 U.S. and NATO troops were driven from the country.
He said the insurgents would not negotiate while there were still foreign troops on Afghan soil.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai said last week he had asked the king of Saudi Arabia to mediate in talks with the insurgents and called on Taliban leader Mullah Omar to return to his homeland and to make peace.
© Thomson Reuters 2008
Copyright © 2007 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.
Certainly most countries in Europe who are NATO members realized that and pretty much have avoided the fight by keeping the troops there out of harm's way and in the compounds.
The other factoid here is that he suggests that sitting down with them and talking is a good thing.
=======================
British commander says war in Taliban cannot be won
Reuters Published: Sunday, October 05, 2008
Fabrizio Bensch/Reuters
LONDON -- Britain's commander in Afghanistan has said the war against the Taliban cannot be won, the Sunday Times reported.
It quoted Brigadier Mark Carleton-Smith as saying in an interview that if the Taliban were willing to talk, then that might be "precisely the sort of progress" needed to end the insurgency.
"We're not going to win this war. It's about reducing it to a manageable level of insurgency that's not a strategic threat and can be managed by the Afghan army," he said.
He said his forces had "taken the sting out of the Taliban for 2008" but that troops may well leave Afghanistan with there still being a low level of insurgency.
NATO commanders and diplomats have been saying for some time that the Taliban insurgency cannot be defeated by military means alone and that negotiations with the militants will ultimately be needed to bring an end to the conflict.
"If the Taliban were prepared to sit on the other side of the table and talk about a political settlement, then that's precisely the sort of progress that concludes insurgencies like this," Mr. Carleton-Smith said. "That shouldn't make people uncomfortable."
Violence in Afghanistan has increased to its worst level since 2001, when U.S.-led forces overthrew the ruling Taliban following the Sept. 11 attacks on the United States.
A senior Taliban commander on Friday rejected reconciliation with what he called the "puppet" Afghan government.
Mullah Brother, who served as a top military commander while the Taliban were in power, repeated the Taliban's war aim of fighting till the more than 70,000 U.S. and NATO troops were driven from the country.
He said the insurgents would not negotiate while there were still foreign troops on Afghan soil.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai said last week he had asked the king of Saudi Arabia to mediate in talks with the insurgents and called on Taliban leader Mullah Omar to return to his homeland and to make peace.
© Thomson Reuters 2008
Copyright © 2007 CanWest Interactive, a division of CanWest MediaWorks Publications, Inc.. All rights reserved.
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Toppy Vann
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Afghan heroin a threat to Canadian streets: RCMP
Updated Sun. Aug. 5 2007 11:10 AM ET
Canadian Press
TORONTO -- The Mounties have warned at least two federal agencies that Afghan heroin is "increasingly'' making its way to Canada and poses a direct threat to the public despite millions of dollars from Ottawa to fund the war-torn country's counter-narcotics efforts, newly released documents reveal.
"The RCMP informs us that Afghan heroin is increasingly ending up on, or is destined for Canadian streets,'' say Foreign Affairs and Defence Department briefings, obtained separately by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act.
The Afghan-produced heroin "directly threatens'' Canadians, say the identically worded briefings.
Paul Nadeau, the director of the RCMP's drug branch in Ottawa, said about 60 per cent of the heroin on Canadian streets comes from Afghanistan. ....
Roughly 92 per cent of the world's heroin comes from opium poppies grown in Afghanistan, according to the 2007 World Drug Report, released in June by the United Nations Office on Drugs.
Afghan heroin typically flows into Canada through two main trafficking arteries, Nadeau said: via the porous border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and then onto India and, finally, Canada; and, from Afghanistan to western Africa, then through the United States into Canada.
The Foreign Affairs and Defence Department briefings differ on the windfall opium production and trafficking yields in Afghanistan, estimating it is equivalent to between 25 and 60 per cent of the Afghan economy.
Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Ambra Dickie says Ottawa has pledged about $57 million to fund Afghan counter-narcotics efforts, including an $18.5-million program to promote alternate livelihoods in the country's volatile Kandahar province, where Canadian troops are stationed.
The Afghan counter-narcotics programs are co-ordinated by that country's national drug control strategy. But the drug control strategy is badly flawed, said Thomas Pietschmann, a researcher who authored the UN drug report.
"It's clear: there is a disaster there. Nobody can say that it's working. It's not working,'' Pietschmann said from his office in Vienna, Austria.
Afghanistan's counter-narcotics minister stepped down last month after the country's opium poppy crop ballooned under his watch. Habibullah Qaderi's resignation came as western embassies and the Afghan government hold closed door meetings about how to fight the country's growing drug problem.
Pietschmann said it's "extremely logical'' that there's more Afghan heroin on Canadian streets because of a spike in the central Asian nation's opium poppy production.
"It would be the most logical thing to expect, on the Canadian market, that you would see far more Afghan heroin landing on the shores of Canada,'' he said.
Afghanistan's swelling opium crop might lower heroin's street value in Canada, Nadeau said, adding he doubts more people will start using heroin because it's cheaper and there's more of it.
"Heroin is not what it used to be. There's a certain stigma attached to it from the user population,'' he said. "But it's definitely a problem in certain major centres.''
The Foreign Affairs briefing concedes there's no quick fix to Afghanistan's drug quandary: "There are no simple solutions to a problem that has taken decades to develop.''
Updated Sun. Aug. 5 2007 11:10 AM ET
Canadian Press
TORONTO -- The Mounties have warned at least two federal agencies that Afghan heroin is "increasingly'' making its way to Canada and poses a direct threat to the public despite millions of dollars from Ottawa to fund the war-torn country's counter-narcotics efforts, newly released documents reveal.
"The RCMP informs us that Afghan heroin is increasingly ending up on, or is destined for Canadian streets,'' say Foreign Affairs and Defence Department briefings, obtained separately by The Canadian Press under the Access to Information Act.
The Afghan-produced heroin "directly threatens'' Canadians, say the identically worded briefings.
Paul Nadeau, the director of the RCMP's drug branch in Ottawa, said about 60 per cent of the heroin on Canadian streets comes from Afghanistan. ....
Roughly 92 per cent of the world's heroin comes from opium poppies grown in Afghanistan, according to the 2007 World Drug Report, released in June by the United Nations Office on Drugs.
Afghan heroin typically flows into Canada through two main trafficking arteries, Nadeau said: via the porous border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and then onto India and, finally, Canada; and, from Afghanistan to western Africa, then through the United States into Canada.
The Foreign Affairs and Defence Department briefings differ on the windfall opium production and trafficking yields in Afghanistan, estimating it is equivalent to between 25 and 60 per cent of the Afghan economy.
Foreign Affairs spokeswoman Ambra Dickie says Ottawa has pledged about $57 million to fund Afghan counter-narcotics efforts, including an $18.5-million program to promote alternate livelihoods in the country's volatile Kandahar province, where Canadian troops are stationed.
The Afghan counter-narcotics programs are co-ordinated by that country's national drug control strategy. But the drug control strategy is badly flawed, said Thomas Pietschmann, a researcher who authored the UN drug report.
"It's clear: there is a disaster there. Nobody can say that it's working. It's not working,'' Pietschmann said from his office in Vienna, Austria.
Afghanistan's counter-narcotics minister stepped down last month after the country's opium poppy crop ballooned under his watch. Habibullah Qaderi's resignation came as western embassies and the Afghan government hold closed door meetings about how to fight the country's growing drug problem.
Pietschmann said it's "extremely logical'' that there's more Afghan heroin on Canadian streets because of a spike in the central Asian nation's opium poppy production.
"It would be the most logical thing to expect, on the Canadian market, that you would see far more Afghan heroin landing on the shores of Canada,'' he said.
Afghanistan's swelling opium crop might lower heroin's street value in Canada, Nadeau said, adding he doubts more people will start using heroin because it's cheaper and there's more of it.
"Heroin is not what it used to be. There's a certain stigma attached to it from the user population,'' he said. "But it's definitely a problem in certain major centres.''
The Foreign Affairs briefing concedes there's no quick fix to Afghanistan's drug quandary: "There are no simple solutions to a problem that has taken decades to develop.''
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Toppy Vann
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MacNews has posted about how Canadian troops are bringing democracy and all those good things to Afghanis. I posted a lot about the costs, the wrongheadedness of this mission that began with the hunt for Osama morphed into fighting all comers including the farmers who after they get their crops of poppies all grown, harvested and shipped to North America where it is sold as heroin become Taliban too. How the folks we are fighting (some) have been elected to the Afghan government, etc.
Now news of how wonderful democracy is that Canadians are fighting. This should warm Canadians hearts as we enter some tough economic times globally and realize this is what we are pissing away $22 billion on while forgetting the original idea was to catch Osama who confessed to 911 involvement. Imagine if we spent that $22 billion at home making us safe from Afghani drugs and drug related crime, just how much better off we'd be.
And now Afghani democracy at work. It is good we're fighting there or this guy would not have had his death sentence for blasphemy commuted to a mere 20 years. If it wasn't in the news, you'd think someone was making this stuff up. This is reprehensible, disgusting and simply not worth fighting for as the Russian empire found out.
Canada must protest sentence of Afghan 'blasphemer,' brother says
Tom Blackwell , Canwest News Service
Published: Tuesday, October 21, 2008
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - The brother of the Afghan journalism student who now faces 20 years in prison for blasphemy says countries like Canada must lobby hard against the harsh punishment if they care at all about justice and freedom.
On Tuesday, an appeal court overturned the death penalty meted out to Sayed Perwiz Kambakhsh in January, sentencing him instead to 20 years in prison. His lawyers and supporters had expected him to be freed.
Today's decision was taken due to the pressures of some extremists and fundamentalists," said Ibrahimi, a journalist himself. "They didn't have any reason to put him in jail for even one day. But in Afghanistan, we do not have the rule of law, we have the rule of interests."
His brother is alleged to have downloaded an article from the Internet that questions some tenets of Islam concerning women's rights and to have asked about it in class.
---
"Canada is one of the biggest supporters of Afghanistan. It must ask President Karzai why it is spending millions and millions of dollars for democracy and justice and freedom (when cases like this happen)."
Kambakhsh was convicted of blasphemy and sentenced to death after a brief, closed-door trial in Mazar-i-Sharif. Under Muslim Sharia law, which is incorporated in the Afghan constitution, insulting Islam is illegal and blasphemy punishable by death.[/b]
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world ... c7a8d974d8
Now news of how wonderful democracy is that Canadians are fighting. This should warm Canadians hearts as we enter some tough economic times globally and realize this is what we are pissing away $22 billion on while forgetting the original idea was to catch Osama who confessed to 911 involvement. Imagine if we spent that $22 billion at home making us safe from Afghani drugs and drug related crime, just how much better off we'd be.
And now Afghani democracy at work. It is good we're fighting there or this guy would not have had his death sentence for blasphemy commuted to a mere 20 years. If it wasn't in the news, you'd think someone was making this stuff up. This is reprehensible, disgusting and simply not worth fighting for as the Russian empire found out.
Canada must protest sentence of Afghan 'blasphemer,' brother says
Tom Blackwell , Canwest News Service
Published: Tuesday, October 21, 2008
KANDAHAR, Afghanistan - The brother of the Afghan journalism student who now faces 20 years in prison for blasphemy says countries like Canada must lobby hard against the harsh punishment if they care at all about justice and freedom.
On Tuesday, an appeal court overturned the death penalty meted out to Sayed Perwiz Kambakhsh in January, sentencing him instead to 20 years in prison. His lawyers and supporters had expected him to be freed.
Today's decision was taken due to the pressures of some extremists and fundamentalists," said Ibrahimi, a journalist himself. "They didn't have any reason to put him in jail for even one day. But in Afghanistan, we do not have the rule of law, we have the rule of interests."
His brother is alleged to have downloaded an article from the Internet that questions some tenets of Islam concerning women's rights and to have asked about it in class.
---
"Canada is one of the biggest supporters of Afghanistan. It must ask President Karzai why it is spending millions and millions of dollars for democracy and justice and freedom (when cases like this happen)."
Kambakhsh was convicted of blasphemy and sentenced to death after a brief, closed-door trial in Mazar-i-Sharif. Under Muslim Sharia law, which is incorporated in the Afghan constitution, insulting Islam is illegal and blasphemy punishable by death.[/b]
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/world ... c7a8d974d8
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Soundy
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The question of the day is: does Toppy Vann actually have an opinion about all this, or does he just cut'n'paste everyone else's?
Find out on the next episode of Liberal Loonies!
Find out on the next episode of Liberal Loonies!
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regarding the economic cost, I might ask this question, how much is peace of mind for the general population of allied countries worth. As long as the wars are being fought in the countries that are or have been safe haven for the enemies of the allies, then things will be safer here at home. Just wait until they do pull out of afganistan and irag without totally destorying the enemy. Then we will see renewed attacks on allied soil like never before. Not right away, but soon. Mark my words.
I feel much better as long as the fighting is over there and I dont mind paying for that.
I feel much better as long as the fighting is over there and I dont mind paying for that.
Every day that passes is one you can't get back
Sorry but as soon as I see Scott Taylor quoted as an expert, I question the validity of any of the other groups quoted. Scott Taylor professes to be some sort of expert on military affairs, anyone seen his Bio? Not exactly exposed to tactical let alone strategic decision making in his short military career was he. His attacks on the military began shortly after the military quit buying his magazine (it used to be in the seat pockets of military flights), he mixes small doses of fact with large flights of fantasy. His formulae has resulted in him being able to fool the media and many civilians for several decades now and as such he is now an "expert" and called upon to comment on issues he has no more insight into than any other person on the street. I have no problem with his opinion but rather with the fact he is portrayed as something he is not. I have a real problem with people who try to gain credibilty through false boasts. Fact is most in the military no longer can be bothered debunking his BS because it just gets him more press.
Another point I would like to make is regarding the safety of Hong Kong versus Vancouver. Since 911 it has been apparent that some of the safest countries to visit are those that fall under the Communist system. Viet Nam, Cuba and China all are safe, largely because of the degree of gov't control and public fear. Is that what we want?
Another point I would like to make is regarding the safety of Hong Kong versus Vancouver. Since 911 it has been apparent that some of the safest countries to visit are those that fall under the Communist system. Viet Nam, Cuba and China all are safe, largely because of the degree of gov't control and public fear. Is that what we want?
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Toppy Vann
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Ziggy, you might want to tell us how you arrive at the conclusions you do as Scott Taylor is well regarded and respected much like Lowell Ullrich is by the Lions. What you are doing without stating where you are getting this take from is character assassination if not way over the line.
If your view of Scott Taylor is as inaccurate as your belief that since 911 just communist countries are safe, then Canada needs to issuing a 'ziggy foot-in-mouth' warning along with the hoof and mouth warning it issued for China and this statement in its Travel Advisory Warnings about China:
"Canadians in China should maintain a high level of personal security awareness at all times. Isolated acts of violence, including bombings and protests have occurred."
Hong Kong does not have a Communist government. In fact, Governor Patten - the last HK Governor from Britain is in HK pumping sales of his latest book and visiting old friends. There are Hong Kong legislators who are not permitted to cross the border to China for their dissident statements. The border between and HK and China and Macau and China are two of the most stringent border crossings in the world!!! Even for folks like me with a Canadian Passport (I need a visa) and a Hong Kong work visa and HK ID card.
Canada is relatively safe for visitors too. We just have a lot of drug and property crime - too high!!! China does have a Communist government but if you have been keeping up you'd notice that they act just as capitalist as others. Hong Kong SAR is a Special Administrative Region as is Macau which is another separate entity with their own rules, etc and while foreign policy is not an issue in local affairs they run everything else from the Police, Immigration, and government. HKSAR was set up after the handover in 1997 and will stay this way for 50 years. Macau is introducing legislation similar to that rejected in HK in 2003 for national security. Under Article 23 of the Basic Law of China both SARs felt obligated to do this but HK folks went nuts and it was dropped. HK has a lot of freedoms on the internet where in China not far from where I am typing this - you do not.
Thirdly, to suggest China is safe gimme a freaking break!!! Not everywhere is unsafe in China but it is far from safe in many, many ways including street safety and food safety. That doesn't mean you wouldn't go there. Just be clear that China is very different than HK when it comes to being safe walking down the streets. Ask anyone who has been or lived in both or just in China.
I posted those articles from Taylor as a food for thought as a Canadian concerned for the direction we have gone in. You don't have to agree but your comments on Taylor are unfair and likely just conjecture on your part.
If your view of Scott Taylor is as inaccurate as your belief that since 911 just communist countries are safe, then Canada needs to issuing a 'ziggy foot-in-mouth' warning along with the hoof and mouth warning it issued for China and this statement in its Travel Advisory Warnings about China:
"Canadians in China should maintain a high level of personal security awareness at all times. Isolated acts of violence, including bombings and protests have occurred."
Hong Kong does not have a Communist government. In fact, Governor Patten - the last HK Governor from Britain is in HK pumping sales of his latest book and visiting old friends. There are Hong Kong legislators who are not permitted to cross the border to China for their dissident statements. The border between and HK and China and Macau and China are two of the most stringent border crossings in the world!!! Even for folks like me with a Canadian Passport (I need a visa) and a Hong Kong work visa and HK ID card.
Canada is relatively safe for visitors too. We just have a lot of drug and property crime - too high!!! China does have a Communist government but if you have been keeping up you'd notice that they act just as capitalist as others. Hong Kong SAR is a Special Administrative Region as is Macau which is another separate entity with their own rules, etc and while foreign policy is not an issue in local affairs they run everything else from the Police, Immigration, and government. HKSAR was set up after the handover in 1997 and will stay this way for 50 years. Macau is introducing legislation similar to that rejected in HK in 2003 for national security. Under Article 23 of the Basic Law of China both SARs felt obligated to do this but HK folks went nuts and it was dropped. HK has a lot of freedoms on the internet where in China not far from where I am typing this - you do not.
Thirdly, to suggest China is safe gimme a freaking break!!! Not everywhere is unsafe in China but it is far from safe in many, many ways including street safety and food safety. That doesn't mean you wouldn't go there. Just be clear that China is very different than HK when it comes to being safe walking down the streets. Ask anyone who has been or lived in both or just in China.
I posted those articles from Taylor as a food for thought as a Canadian concerned for the direction we have gone in. You don't have to agree but your comments on Taylor are unfair and likely just conjecture on your part.
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Soundy
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That's the great thing about the internet - it gives a big tall soapbox to every loonie with a wild conspiracy theory and an axe to grind, which in turn allows anyone impressive-looking quotes to support whatever zany ideas they want to get on their high horse with and ride them into some forum or another.
Heck, if I wanted to insist that the sky is pink, I could no doubt find some articles somewhere on line by some wannabe-pseudo-scientist, written up in a very official-looking manner, that I could use to support my own theories, and say, "See, I'm right, because this web site says so!"
Heck, if I wanted to insist that the sky is pink, I could no doubt find some articles somewhere on line by some wannabe-pseudo-scientist, written up in a very official-looking manner, that I could use to support my own theories, and say, "See, I'm right, because this web site says so!"
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I'm not going to get into the discussion, it would take far too much of my time!Soundy wrote:That's the great thing about the internet - it gives a big tall soapbox to every loonie with a wild conspiracy theory and an axe to grind, which in turn allows anyone impressive-looking quotes to support whatever zany ideas they want to get on their high horse with and ride them into some forum or another.
Heck, if I wanted to insist that the sky is pink, I could no doubt find some articles somewhere on line by some wannabe-pseudo-scientist, written up in a very official-looking manner, that I could use to support my own theories, and say, "See, I'm right, because this web site says so!"
Doesn't matter what side of the argument you are on, I just have to say that Soundy makes a great point here.
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bclions16 wrote:I'm not going to get into the discussion, it would take far too much of my time!Soundy wrote:That's the great thing about the internet - it gives a big tall soapbox to every loonie with a wild conspiracy theory and an axe to grind, which in turn allows anyone impressive-looking quotes to support whatever zany ideas they want to get on their high horse with and ride them into some forum or another.
Heck, if I wanted to insist that the sky is pink, I could no doubt find some articles somewhere on line by some wannabe-pseudo-scientist, written up in a very official-looking manner, that I could use to support my own theories, and say, "See, I'm right, because this web site says so!"
Doesn't matter what side of the argument you are on, I just have to say that Soundy makes a great point here.
This has always been the case even pre-Internet days. The only thing that technology has done has made it easier. It was always possible to find a quote to support a point, and you could always go to a speakers corner or pay for an ad if you had the money or even find some rag to publish a story in. It is not new. The reader is still responsible for deciding the validity of an argument or the soundness of a source. It is the person who takes off with an assertion without doing any of their own homework that is the problem, not the speaker. The great thing about the Internet is it gives a Soapbox to everybody, loonie or not and on balance, that is a good thing. How many voices have been quashed for lack of the means to make it heard?
Tell me how long must a fan be strong? Ans. Always.
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Toppy Vann
- Hall of Famer
- Posts: 9794
- Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm
Huh? Soundy makes a lot of sound and no sense! Why you are posting that comment says more about gullibility than anything else if you are swallowing Soundy's silly statement. What that post and your endorsement has to do with this thread is beyond comprehension. What on earth Soundy is blathering about is not related to the topic in either of his last two posts on this thread.bclions16 wrote:I'm not going to get into the discussion, it would take far too much of my time!Soundy wrote:That's the great thing about the internet - it gives a big tall soapbox to every loonie with a wild conspiracy theory and an axe to grind, which in turn allows anyone impressive-looking quotes to support whatever zany ideas they want to get on their high horse with and ride them into some forum or another.
Heck, if I wanted to insist that the sky is pink, I could no doubt find some articles somewhere on line by some wannabe-pseudo-scientist, written up in a very official-looking manner, that I could use to support my own theories, and say, "See, I'm right, because this web site says so!"
Doesn't matter what side of the argument you are on, I just have to say that Soundy makes a great point here.
Ziggy, nice removal of foot in mouth- back tracking pretty fast here aren't we. Your comments on Taylor border on libel when you accuse him of distorting facts. Do I have to be in the military now or before to have an opinion? I am not nor have I been in the military. If you have and see things differently then why not just tell us why he is so bad. Your character assassination of the guy has two supporters so far. I am interested in how you can accuse this guy of falsifying his reports - if you can show this to be true, then fine, but I can't see where he is off base and I have read Esprit de Corps for several years since seeing him interviewed on the national media - both CBC and CTV.
Soundy if you have some issue with me cutting and pasting something be man enough to just say so. Your posts are spineless and stupid as they don't even touch the topic.
ziggy, I hardly need a lecture from you on what living in a democracy means. You sure don't qualify as a guy with much understanding of political systems either. Your comments on communist countries being safe are silly and laughable. You have no idea about money flow into China from HK. That is whacko. Your post above is just what you accuse Taylor of - mixing fact with fancy. Both your posts on this thread are a joke.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
Toppy, Soundy's post about the Internet is true. You can find info to back up any and every argument ever made. I'm not arguing your position on the issues being discussed here. Just thought that one post was a good synopsis of what I'm always thinking when I read heated online debates.
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