Eskimos 35 - Lions 29, Post-Game Stats and Comments

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hunsperger
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Buono should have been shown the door years ago...tired, old, arrogant, smarmy, man...who has made deflection into an art form...should be retired to White Rock
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Hambone
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Foucault played right guard most of the second half after Fabien then Vaillancout took turns getting turnstiled in the first half. I thought that was an improvement. What disturbed me the most was how often it seemed the whole OL was beaten on single plays. It wasn't like one guy was the culprit but rather the whole group as it seemed the entire EE DL arrived at Jennings all at the same time uncontested.

The other thing that bugged me was how on pretty much every 2nd and long (8 to 14 yds) Jennings settled for a dump pass that resulted in more than a 4 yard gain and subsequent punt. Other receivers had all gone downfield 20 yards or more into coverage while the middle of the field close to first down range was abandoned.
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The_Pauser
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tedbear wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:00 am
When The Lions scored thje touchdown to go ahead 28 to 13 giving them a 15 point lead. Wally elects to kick the single point which gave them a 16 point lead meaning Edmonton would need two touchdowns with two point converts to tie.

I don't understand why he would not have gone for the two point convert at that point. They had momentum and If they would have made it they would have been up 17 points (3 scores) and virtually would have put the game away.

If they would not have made it they would have still had a 15 point lead. With a 15 point lead when Edmonton got their first touchdown there would have been no need for them to go for 2 points as they would have been down by 8 if they kicked the convert.

The way our defence has collapsed all season at the end of games you would think that the best chance we would have to win would be for the offence going for 2 points and putting the game away, instead of relying on Washington's defence to get the job done.

Another safe but poor coaching choice by Wally.

Also when they elected to punt with 11 seconds left on the clock in regulation time there were some offensive players that were pretty upset with that decision as they came off the field.
And another hindsight second guessing of the coaching staff that would have looked like this had that 2 point attempt failed:

"I don't understand why Wally keeps going for 2 points and they never work. Instead of a 16 point lead and having to force Edmonton into getting 2 TD's and 2 2-point converts all Edmonton needed was 1 2-point convert and a single off of a TD. Does he not believe in his defense to stop them?"

I have no problems with how Wally coached that part of the game.

My problems are with the offensive line, and with our offensive playcalling. And the fact that Jennings does not look like he can lead a football team.
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tedbear
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The only problem is that you coach to your strengths and weaknesses. We have lost numerous games when we have played passive defence and the other teams have driven the ball down our throats at the end of games to beat us. It has become a recurring theme of our 2017 football club. Like other posters on this board have mentioned when something isn't working you better try something else. Winning football games with our defence on the field at the end of the 4th quarter is just not working.

Given the two plays IMO what would give us a better chance to win. Us making a two point convert when we had momentum and a 15 point lead or us stopping them on a two point convert later in the game if our defence collapsed and Edmonton was in a position to tie it.

Its not even playing to win its playing to the strengths and weaknesses of your team.
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Rainey finally quit juking and jiving and trying to outrun defenders to the outside and took it up the seam.
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Hambone
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TheLionKing wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:47 pm
Rainey finally quit juking and jiving and trying to outrun defenders to the outside and took it up the seam.
Agreed 100%. The results were evident.
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maxlion
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Hambone wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:26 pm
Foucault played right guard most of the second half after Fabien then Vaillancout took turns getting turnstiled in the first half. I thought that was an improvement. What disturbed me the most was how often it seemed the whole OL was beaten on single plays. It wasn't like one guy was the culprit but rather the whole group as it seemed the entire EE DL arrived at Jennings all at the same time uncontested.
I have been less critical than some regarding the oline because I felt that Jennings was basically making them look bad by hanging onto the ball too long. This game, however, they were clearly outmatched.
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The_Pauser wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:10 pm
My problems are with the offensive line, and with our offensive playcalling. And the fact that Jennings does not look like he can lead a football team.
Quarterbacking is going to be a difficult decision for next year. In hindsight, it is clear that Jennings was relying far too much on his receivers making big catches last year. And he was probably rushed too quickly into the starting position. His ability to read coverages and make smart decisions under pressure is lacking. The difference between his play and Reilly's when the game was on the line was night and day. Going into next year with JJ as starting QB would be a huge risk.

We can criticize the decision to not throw deep, but the game plan was ball control and avoiding interceptions. Given Jennings' play this year, this was probably a smart strategy.
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B.C.FAN
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maxlion wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:32 pm
Hambone wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:26 pm
Foucault played right guard most of the second half after Fabien then Vaillancout took turns getting turnstiled in the first half. I thought that was an improvement. What disturbed me the most was how often it seemed the whole OL was beaten on single plays. It wasn't like one guy was the culprit but rather the whole group as it seemed the entire EE DL arrived at Jennings all at the same time uncontested.
I have been less critical than some regarding the oline because I felt that Jennings was basically making them look bad by hanging onto the ball too long. This game, however, they were clearly outmatched.
Yes and no. The O-line whiffed on some blocks but Jennings should have thrown the ball away twice in the first quarter when he ate it for sacks, including the end-zone sack where he held the ball for 5 seconds. He is too scared of making a mistake.

The Lions generated just as much pressure in this game as the Esks. Reilly just has a better pocket presence and knows how to escape or dump the ball off.

There is a night and day difference in the quality of quarterbacking the Lions got this year from Jennings and Lulay, and it shows in the quarterback ratings. I have no doubt a healthy Lulay would have led them into the playoffs. Are the Lions willing to bring Lulay back for anoher year and let him compete for the starter’s job? I would.
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B.C.FAN wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:15 am
The turning point was when MIke Reilly his Derel Walker with a 47-yard bomb down the sidelines with under 5 minutes left in the fourth quarter to set up the TD that made it a 29-21 game. It was an aggressive play call that was perfectly executed by a good quarterback and receiver against a good DB in man coverage. Yell lost a step in coverage when he peeked at Reilly but he recovered and got his hand in front of Walker to nearly break up the pass. The Eskimos made a play, as Wally said. That was the Eskimos' only deep pas completion of the game. But that was the point that the Lions coaches panicked and decided they had to prevent another deep pass completion so they reverted to a soft zone that left lots of room in the intermediate zone in front of Thompson and on the sidelines for the Esks to march downfield with ease for the tying and winning touchdowns. The Esks scored the tying TD on a 9-play drive in which Reilly picked apart the zone, completing 7 of 8 passes, capped by a 20-yarder to Bowman in front of Thompson.

Mike Reilly said after the game that the Eskimos couldn't move the ball in the second and third quarters because the B.C. defence was playing aggressively. That change of defensive philosophy late in the fourth quarter cost the Lions the game.

Offensively, the Lions didn't attempt a deep pass. Eventually the Esks cheated up and shut down the short screens and crossing routes that the Lions relied on all night. I said in the game day thread that the Lions needed to throw deep to loosen the coverage but they stuck to their conservative passing game even when it stopped working. The overtime was a foregone conclusion. One team was moving the ball and playing with newfound confidence against a soft zone D for and the other team wasn't. It was all due to poor coaching decisions.
It certainly was due to poor coaching decisions B.C. Fan.

I would put more of the blame on the coordinators but we have seen this script too often with different coordinators and therefore know where the problem originates and that is with Wally.

Wally has always coached as if he is afraid of his own shadow. The reality is that he has so few decisions to make in a game that you would think that he would get more of them right.

When I watch opposing Head Coaches they are so much more involved during a game. They are talking to their coodinators or to the spotter upstairs through the head phones, they have play sheets and game plans in front of them, they talk to their quarterback and other players coming off the field, etc. etc.

Wally basically stands on the sidelines, chews his lip, crosses his arms, often has no idea what is going on, doesn't know the offensive or defensive play calls, doesn't talk to his quarterback and his usual occasional form of communication with his players is to yell at one of them coming off the field.

Wally is basically free of any game obligations, other than to challenge a call (which usually comes from an assistant coach or Lulay on one occasion) so basically all Wally has to do is decide on a whether to punt or gamble on third and one or whether to punt or go for a field goal attempt.

Having watched so many of Wally's coordinators coach this team, its also obvious that they almost all coach the same way as their predecessor we know that the schemes they run and the play calls they make are part of the Buono philosophy.

We have had some exceptions thankfully. Dave Ritchie never got to run the 3-4 defense he wanted to but he worked around Wally with a 4 man front and then used zone blitzes to run a multi-dimensional defense anyway. Rich Stubler mixed his coverages, outside of the Buono 'straight up zone' philosophy but was gone after two seasons, even though his first season broke records and he still had a good defense in his second season. Even Benevedes, a very Wally clone, wanted to use a defensive line rotation but it required a 1-6 start to the 2011 season, and two previous losing seasons, until he was allowed to.

Chap, Dorazio, Cortez, and Khari Jones all ran the same offence, with Chap being allowed to make some adaptions in 2011. Cortez even ran the Wally spread offence under Tedford, with Tedford coming in wanting to run a tight end offence and bringing in two tight ends who were used as wide slots instead - that is how powerful the Buono influence is, even when he is not the HC of the team.

I have never seen Buono as a good coach. In fact, most of the time, in terms of actual coaching, he is hindrance, rather than a positive attribute. His game management skills have not improved one iota in all his seasons of coaching. He is a Manager Head Coach. To be successful, he needs leadership from above, more talent than other teams, and very good assistant coaches.

Buono's strengths as a Manager Head Coach are that he runs a disciplined ship, motivates through blame and fear, is willing to cut a veteran or any player, does not tolerate off-field issues, and is demanding. Those attributes don't require a high skill set but they are attributes which have made him successful when the other positive components mentioned above are also present.

But the game is always changing and the players who play the game have been coached differently than the way Buono still coaches. Marv Levy was interviewed during the Hamilton/Montreal game. He looked great at age 90. Marv Levy said, during that interview that the key to success was adapting. When it was mentioned that his ex-players still keep in contact with him, Levy said his players were always much more than pieces on a chess board to him.

There are many Head Coaches I admire or respect for different reasons. I don't have a lot of respect for Buono for a variety of reasons but I do recognize that he played an important role in those first five seasons with our Leos, in terms of having a very successful team on the field during the regular season and winning the 2006 Grey Cup. Buono was surrounded by good football people during that time, as he was for most of his time in Calgary. Ackles, O'Billovich, Burratto, Ritchie were knowledgeable football men but Buono deserves credit for being the man in charge on the sidelines during that time period.

But its now 2017, we are not going to make the playoffs and we have only played in one Grey Cup game since 2006. That is one Grey Cup game in the past 11 seasons with Buono as GM/HC or Buono as GM with one of his hand picked successors. Its not good enough. This season is a disaster. Not making the playoffs with the talent on this Leos squad is unforgiveable.

It truly is time for change. A friend of mine, watching last nights' game, said to me that Buono seems so isolated from the game and the rest of the team on the sidelines but whenever a player does come over and try to say something to Buono he just seems to get upset with the player.

I said most players don't want to approach him and know better most of the time. As a football game generally goes on, especially if the score is close, Buono becomes more and more stressed, appears to get more and more angry, and also seems to get more and more confused.

Buono should never have returned to coaching. When he retired in 2011, he said he was having trouble connecting to today's player. The problem was that Buono always thought that he could be doing a better job than the HC that he had hired. In fact, I believe he thought he was a better coach than anyone who had ever coached the game. He knows talent and he saw that the Leos team that he would become the Head Coach of again had a lot of young talent.

But Buono did not have the other things that he needed badly, as a mentor to guide him away from his worst tendencies and he chose not to have good coordinators under him...nor does he have the knowledge or wisdom to mentor them properly. This is the result.

Kavis Reed in Montreal doesn't know better. When he fired Chap in Montreal early in his first season as GM, he thought he could do a better job. He hasn't. He definitely hasn't. Jim Popp had the same kind of thinking too many times in Montreal. Kent Austin knew that he had to pull the plug. June Jones has shown the difference good coaching can make in Hamilton this season, after taking over from Austin. He has made a world of difference to that team.

But Buono had coached for a long time before giving up the HC job in 2011. He should have known that it wouldn't be as easy as he thought it would be. However, his sense of superiority got in the way. Legends don't always remain legends, even self-proclaimed ones if the game passes them by.

I'm not so sure that Buono ever was a very good Head Coach. But he got the opportunity and was fortunate to be the recipient of the talent brought in by Shivers and O'Billovich. But he was wise enough to listen to the advice he received from Kwong and Ackles,and also wise enough to hire some good assistants along the way.

But his head got the best of him when he thought he could hire any assistants and be successful and his head got the best of him when he thought he could just keep doing the same old things, including the same dum things and get away with it.

Wally doesn't want to leave the game as a HC on a losing note. He didn't anticipate that when he came back to coach. Well its reality time. Wally will likely return next season as HC, with all the negatives that potentially brings. But there is no guarantee that next season will be very successful either. Calgary is sliding but they have very good offensive and defensive lines and play smart football most of the time. Winnipeg has good coaching and as Andrew Harris says, better coaching than in B.C.

For all those who believed Chris Jones was a joke, he has proven those distractors very wrong. The Riders are on an upswing. Edmonton has some issues on defense but they have good talent on offence and will be competitive. Buono could be coaching at age 75, without a Grey Cup berth again.

Our only hope, as Leos fans, will be that the team will be sold this off-season and the house cleaning can begin. It truly is time for change.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
Blitz
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There is a night and day difference in the quality of quarterbacking the Lions got this year from Jennings and Lulay, and it shows in the quarterback ratings. I have no doubt a healthy Lulay would have led them into the playoffs. Are the Lions willing to bring Lulay back for anoher year and let him compete for the starter’s job? I would.

B.C. Fan
There was a night and day difference in the quality of quarterbacking we got from Jonathan Jennings last season from the quarterbacking we got from Lulay during the 2015 season.

I don't believe, we would necessarily made the playoffs with Lulay quarterbacking the rest of the way this season, had he not gotten injured. I could not make that statement.

There were a lot of other problem areas on this Leos squad, from offensive and defensive line play, giving up big plays, etc. We have given up the most sacks in the CFL and we've also given up the most quarterback pressures.

On defense, we're 7th in getting to the quarterback with sacks and even worse at quarterback pressures. Our coaching has been a big problem area and players have attempted to get our coaching staff to look at what they are doing and those comments came from Lulay to Rainey to Jeremiah Johnson.

If one wants to look at Lulay as our quarterback for the future, the chances of Lulay getting injured are very high, if one looks at his injury record since 2012.

Now, he also has to recover from knee surgery to boot. That would be a huge gamble to go with Lulay for next season. On the game telecast last night, Suitor said it would be a big mistake to not go with Jennings as our quarterback for next year.

I find the comment that Jennings relied far too much on his receivers making big catches last year true but Jennings threw a lot of incredible throws to give his receivers the best chance of making those big receptions.

But JonathanJennings did not throw for over 5,000 yards last season, with such a good passing percentage, just throwing deep 50/50 footballs. You don't have the third best season in Leos quarterbacking history just chucking up long balls all the time nor did he.

Jennings still has things to learn. This was basically his sophomore season. But one should not also rely on a short stretch of four games that Lulay started and compare that quarterback average to Jennings this season.

Lulay was fresh, experienced, and he also played against a couple of weak East teams. Lulay was the starter when we lost to Edmonton earlier this season. As a Lions quarterback, he has a 63.9% completion average and a 94.2 quarterback efficiency average.

Coming into this season, Jennings, as a Leo, had a 66.7% completion average and a 101.5 quarterback efficiency average.

I'm not ready to bet the future on a short stretch of four games with an often injured older quarterback over a young quarterback who has elite tools. Jennings just needs to get his confidence back, a better designed offence and more time to throw the football.

I like both Jennings and Lulay as our quarterback but the most sensible decision to me would be to work with Jennings elite arm and continue to develop his quarterback play.

But the last thing I want to read is more of the blame game on players. There has been too much of that this season. That is not the major problem hurting this team. Its a deflection away from what the biggest issue is.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
Blitz
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Here are some questions I ask myself.

One can understand a player having a down year' and not 'executing' as well as the previous season or a particular unit of a football not executing as well. But why so many players and units on our Leos having such a poor season 'executing' on both sides of the football and on special teams?

Obviously Jonathan Jennings, whom many CFL analysts predicted would have an MOP season, has not had the success of last season.
But he is not the only player or unit that has struggled in 2917 on both sides of the football.

Last season we led the CFL in rushing yards. This season we rank 6th in CFL rushing.

Last season, we finished 3rd in protecting our quarterback from quarterback sacks. This season with four of our five offensive lineman returning (only Olifioye is gone for 2017) we have given up the most sacks in the CFL.

Last season, with Jennings in his first full season as a starter, we ranked 4th in turnovers. This season, we are last in this category, giving up the most turnovers in the CFL. Travis Lulay has the worst touchdown to interception ratio in the CFL, based upon his limited play this season and Jennings ranked second worst going into this game.

On defence, last season we tied with Calgary for 1st in sacking opposing quarterbacks. With only Alex Bazzie missing from last year's defensive line, we presently rank 7th in the CFL.

Last season, Chris Rainey led all CFL punters in punt return average. Going into the Edmonton game, Rainey had the worst punt return average in the CFL.

Those kind of drop offs, on offence, defense, and special teams has to be more than a lack of execution, because its taken place almost everywhere. Most units have performed miserably compared to 2016. The only bright spot has been the field goal kicking of Long.

Lots of question marks regarding this Leos 2017 team.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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Hambone
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Somewhat surprised Fenner hasn't received some bouquets from last night. IMO he had a helluva game. Seemed to be everywhere with 7 defensive tackles and another 6 on special teams.
Hambone

He deserves them. I would have preferred Fenner play field halfback this season and Purifoy play nickel back, because I have believed that we would have been stronger had the positions been reversed.

But no question that Fenner has had a solid season at nickel back and he played a hell of a game last night.
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B.C.FAN
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Hambone wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:52 pm
Somewhat surprised Fenner hasn't received some bouquets from last night. IMO he had a helluva game. Seemed to be everywhere with 7 defensive tackles and another 6 on special teams.
I agree. I mentioned him often in the game thread and noted his strong play earlier in this thread. He’s had a great season at nickelback and on special teams, and last night may have been his best game all around.
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The_Pauser
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maxlion wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:44 pm
The_Pauser wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:10 pm
My problems are with the offensive line, and with our offensive playcalling. And the fact that Jennings does not look like he can lead a football team.
Quarterbacking is going to be a difficult decision for next year. In hindsight, it is clear that Jennings was relying far too much on his receivers making big catches last year. And he was probably rushed too quickly into the starting position. His ability to read coverages and make smart decisions under pressure is lacking. The difference between his play and Reilly's when the game was on the line was night and day. Going into next year with JJ as starting QB would be a huge risk.

We can criticize the decision to not throw deep, but the game plan was ball control and avoiding interceptions. Given Jennings' play this year, this was probably a smart strategy.
Agreed.

I wouldn't risk next season on Jennings. Certainly not at $300k. I would probably look to bring in someone like James Franklin and bring Lulay back as a backup. Start over what we thought we had with Jennings and go with a QB who has had a few years to apprentice under a great QB, who has also shown like he has the ability to take over.
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