Calgary 21 - BC 17, Post-game Stats and Comments

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maxlion
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Wally should be held accountable for the overall performance of the organization, and is also responsible for holding to account the coaches working under his direction. We have faced some adversity this year, so it is only fair that there be increased scrutiny of Wally and the other coaches, but it would be wise to keep things in perspective.

Overall, the performance of the organization under Wally's leadership has been excellent. Since 2003, we have won 2 cups, finished first in the west 6 times, and have made the playoffs every year.

By comparison, during the same time frame, Calgary has won two cups, finished first 5 times, and missed the playoffs twice. Edmonton has won 3 cups, finished first twice, and missed the playoffs 4 times. The Riders have won 2 cups, finished first once, and missed the playoffs 3 times. And the Bombers have won 0 cups, finished first in the east once, and mkssed the playoffs 8 times.

So, you could argue that we have been the most successful franchise in the CFL since Wally arrived. You could also argue that the early years of his leadership were more successful than the more recent years, and that he has been surpassed by other coaches.

We also haven't yet seen whether some of these young coaches can maintain the consistent results over time that Wally has. Austin and Campbell's struggles in Hamilton and Ottawa, and Jones in Sask, highlight how hard it can be to do so.

In any case, the season is not over yet, and sometimes teams can overcome adversity to succeed in the end. I think we can be better than we have been so far.
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Sir Purrcival
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I think it is fair to say as it has been said many times over the last few years. Wally and his approach to the game and personnel has become dated. And it isn't especially new either. Wally was let go from Calgary all those many years ago under bad ownership and what not but even then, there had been complaints about Wally and how his style cost the Stampeders championship opportunities. A criticism that has been levelled here as well. Wally Buono has his tendencies and every so often, the stars align for him and he is successful. The rest of the time, not so much. He is still one of the greatest coaches ever in this league but his legacy clearly won't be as an innovator. His approach has been dogmatic and as a result, every other team in this league knows him and his tendencies which filter down through the coaches he hires and the personnel he brings on and lets go. Any teams shortcoming's are ultimately the failure of the management. They bring in the personnel, set the tone and strategy for a team, decide who plays, stays and goes. If players struggle, if a team struggles, it is the managements responsibility to right the ship. That might mean allowing players to develop, bringing new people in or letting people go. When a team continues to struggle in the same ways, year after year after year, there is little option but to lay the blame at the feet of those who pull the strings. This team lacks solid backups, a dominant rush, a solid Oline. We have struggled for years to find someone who can be steady at the safety position. We have gone through periods where we couldn't find a kicker to save our lives. We have had good linebackers and we have been reasonably okay in the Secondary and at receiver and RB. We have found QB's repeatedly as well. It isn't all gloom but you can't have 50% of a solid team and expect much success and too many years that seems to be the case. What good is a dangerous receiving corp if the Oline can't block or we can't keep our QB's healthy? What good is a great linebacking corp or secondary if the front 4 can't put any pressure on opposing QB's? The simple answer that for teams to be successful, there has to be an eveness about them. This team lacks this and continually seems to lack this. Some parts okay but others abysmal and seemingly the latter has the same suspects come up again and again. Wonder why fan interest is so low? Add the expectation among knowledgeable fans that year in and year out, this regime seems to produce teams that have the same host of problems that make success elusive. Hard to read the same chapter of the same book over and over again and not get bored.
Tell me how long must a fan be strong? Ans. Always.
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cromartie
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It also highlighted the two biggest problem areas on our team: offensive line and defensive line.
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at this. Because 1) it's accurate and 2) it's how good football teams are built.
Blitz
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cromartie wrote:
Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:29 am
It also highlighted the two biggest problem areas on our team: offensive line and defensive line.
I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry at this. Because 1) it's accurate and 2) it's how good football teams are built.
Without question!!!

Obviously Wally went into this season with a notion that he had addressed these areas and had the talent. He got it wrong.

We had problems with the right tackle position last season. It was why I opposed the Olifioye trade and wanted us to go with Steward and Olifioye at the tackle positions.

But even more pressing was our defensive line going into 2017. Yet we didn't address the rush end position, outside of signing Evans who neither Calgary or Montreal wanted, let Westerman go in free agency, signed Brooks and believed that Brooks and Turner Jr. would get it done.

The only positives are that Junior Luke was available in the first round and we took him and Forde, who had great analytics, had developed. But both were assigned back up roles going into the season.

Edmonton and Calgary have superior defensive lines than our Leos.

Calgary repeatedly protects its quarterback every season, no matter who is injured or leaves (eg: Dennis). Calgary is 1st in protecting its quarterback this season (10 sacks) while Edmonton is 2nd in that category (11 sacks).

Our Leos have given up 24 sacks (worst in the CFL) Comforting to know that Wally brought back Dorazio last season to give us his 'experience'.

Its not easy to play quarterback when you are under the kind of pressure.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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WestCoastJoe
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This CFL fan since Training Camp has wondered if we had enough size and power at DT.

As noted earlier, Wally seemed to like powerhouse DTs, like Tyrone Williams, Aaron Hunt, Eric Taylor and Khalif Mitchell. Or was that preference more from Dave Ritchie and Mike Benevides?

Does Mark Washington want smaller, possibly more mobile DTs? Seems like it, since the failed idea of converting effective DE Keron Williams to ineffective DT. But IMO, that concept is not cutting it. We are not caving in O Lines. We are not collapsing pockets. It seems evident that the blueprint we follow has changed.

I have thought Mark W judged DB talent well. But he seems to confuse them on coverages and responsibilities. Why the mass movements, position changes, when one guy gets nicked? It has to be distracting.

I get the impression that as long as Mark W gives Wally an essentially conservative defensive approach, that Mark W has a lot of autonomy in defensive concepts and personnel choices. I think Mark W is a fine character guy, but IMO he has not succeeded in a very long apprenticeship as DC. We are not getting championship level defensive play IMO.

An unstoppable rush end does not seem to be considered essential either. If it was deemed essential, get one. Find one. I am sure Don Matthews could always find one. They are out there.

Two other huge issues:

* Weak pass protection, discussed repeatedly over the years.

* Lack of game planning on offence and STs that attempts to deceive or take advantage of even minute vulnerabilities of the opponent. (We focus on execution of a relatively unchanging, carved in stone, playbook.) We did break the mold, however, with a comical attempt at a Super Power I formation near the goal line. We do not do deception well. Perhaps we consider it unsportsmanlike. :wink:

* There are other issues: Lack of creative, preventive game planning. We do not anticipate creative planning by the opposition: How they attack tendencies on offence, defence and STs, visible on tape.

Just in my opinion ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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SammyGreene
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Chris Williams has agreed to terms with #BCLions pending a physical. 2 year deal with a sizeable increase in year 2.
This sure was a "sexy signing" but how much has it handcuffed the Lions elsewhere? Had to trade their all-star tackle to make it possible. They have also passed up on potentially signing Shawn Lemon, Ted Laurent and Willie Jefferson in the past year to shore up their d-line.

I guess Sinkfield teased them of what the potential of a 3rd impact receiver could be with Williams being an even more proven weapon. But that was when Burnham was making around $80,000 not $170,000 or so. Now three international receivers well north of $150,000 a season.

Did they really believe a third potential game-breaking receiver was what could put them over the top?

Ianuzzi's new deal was probably comparable to Gore's old salary but the Lions have a lot of their cap locked into the receiver position. Doesn't do a whole lot of good when the QB isn't getting enough time to get the ball too them on a regular basis.
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DanoT
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Having just returned from the Salmon Arm Roots and Blues Festival I have only just watched the game on a PVR, slipping some parts.

So an uncharacteristically stale Stamps team comes up against the Lions "Team Stale", with predictable results.

THE TRICK PLAY:
When the Lions lined up in the Super Duper I Formation, I thought, "OMG the Lions have hired Gary Etchevery as a consultant". I really did LOL. And the when the play failed and the Lions got a penalty, another LOL moment.

I am most disappointed in Khari Jones and Mark Washington who at this point in their coaching careers, they should be schooling other OCs and DCs, not the other way around.

Jennings under pressure in the pocket, WRs either hobbled or not dressed and the the score is close and they don't force feed the RBs (both Johnson and Rainey and Shaq ML should have been featured as well as Chris Williams) and wait until the second half to move Jennings out of the pocket and have him run. Way to go Team Stale. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

The Lions are in a well deserved 4th place in the standings but since they have been badly out played recently by the Riders who hold the tie breaker if needed, even 4th is a bit tenuous.
maxlion
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I don't think that too many people would include Mark Washington or Khari Jones among the elite coordinators in the league, but they are probably better than many on this forum give them credit for.

Washington seems to get criticized most for running a passive defence at Wally's command. This seems to be an odd criticism for a D that led the league in sacks last year despite significant injuries in the secondary, and that made major changes in the off season to try to increase the number of turnovers. I would be more critical of the D's penchant for giving up big plays and for being very inconsistent over the course of the season.

I was critical of the Jones re-hiring, but he has been more successful than I anticipated. I give him credit for helping Jennings transition from a raw talent to a potential MVP-level starter. Burnham, Arseneaux, and Johnson, who was discarded by two teams before joining the Lions, all had excellent seasons under Jones. We led the league in rushing last year and were above average or better in almost all offensive categories. This year, our offence continues to be above average in most areas despite Jennings missing several games. Not too many teams will be able to sustain success for long without their starting QB.

Jones has been a good coordinator by almost any measurement. I keep hoping for more from Washington's D. Not sure that it is forthcoming.
pdxlion
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maxlion wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:37 pm
. This year, our offence continues to be above average in most areas despite Jennings missing several games. Not too many teams will be able to sustain success for long without their starting QB.

Jones has been a good coordinator by almost any measurement. I keep hoping for more from Washington's D. Not sure that it is forthcoming.
The reason for that stat is that Lulay has played. He has 2 games over 400 and 1 over 300 and is 3-1. He's first in the league in completion percentage, he's second in the league in efficiency rating (107.5), first in the league in yards per attempt. He's played in 1 less game than JJ and has 4 more TD passes. He was playing at a pretty high level. Just my thoughts.
maxlion
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pdxlion wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 3:39 pm
maxlion wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 1:37 pm
. This year, our offence continues to be above average in most areas despite Jennings missing several games. Not too many teams will be able to sustain success for long without their starting QB.

Jones has been a good coordinator by almost any measurement. I keep hoping for more from Washington's D. Not sure that it is forthcoming.
The reason for that stat is that Lulay has played. He has 2 games over 400 and 1 over 300 and is 3-1. He's first in the league in completion percentage, he's second in the league in efficiency rating (107.5), first in the league in yards per attempt. He's played in 1 less game than JJ and has 4 more TD passes. He was playing at a pretty high level. Just my thoughts.
Exactly. He hasn't played at that level in years. Both Lulay and Jones deserve credit for the success.
Figaro
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I have a suggestion for Wally and his OC - play Rainey. Put him in the backfield with JJ24 on almost every down. He is the most electric player in the game when he has the ball in space - ask Alex Singleton. Don't run him inside the tackles, that is JJ24's strength - get him the ball on the edges and watch what happens. This would also open up the inside for JJ24. I know Drummond and Millington were different kinds of backs, but I think JJ24 and Rainey on the field consistently would get defences nervous.

As for kick off and punt returns? Take Rainey off ST and replace him with one of the two options. Go with Iannuzzi who does yeoman service out there: he doesn't give up the ball and always seems to get some yardage (7.1 average). With our poor blocking is on ST, Rainey is getting about as far as Iannuzzi (8.8 average). Option two is to put Chris Williams back there. Right now he is getting a few short passes (16 rep's for 13 yard average) from either quarterback and not much else. That is little production from a big signing. He can rotate in and out at wide receiver. He was an amazing returner.




Most people on the list complain about Wally and his old school predictability - myself being one of them - here is an opportunity to make the other teams adjust on the fly. Play Rainey.

I am glad they are playing more Vaillencourt - he is a wall. He also has played virtually penalty free. On the D-line I would go with Ford and Luke as my tackles - inexperience in Luke is made up with strength - also this helps with the ratio numbers. I like what Shirley has shown so far and think he should get more reps and gain more confidence.

Right tackle is a problem - roll away from there and toss the ball on the run. A few ideas. Team needs a shake up: too predictable right now. Any other ideas?
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CardiacKid
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Figaro wrote:
Tue Aug 22, 2017 4:59 pm
I have a suggestion for Wally and his OC - play Rainey. Put him in the backfield with JJ24 on almost every down. He is the most electric player in the game when he has the ball in space - ask Alex Singleton. Don't run him inside the tackles, that is JJ24's strength - get him the ball on the edges and watch what happens. This would also open up the inside for JJ24. I know Drummond and Millington were different kinds of backs, but I think JJ24 and Rainey on the field consistently would get defences nervous.

As for kick off and punt returns? Take Rainey off ST and replace him with one of the two options. Go with Iannuzzi who does yeoman service out there: he doesn't give up the ball and always seems to get some yardage (7.1 average). With our poor blocking is on ST, Rainey is getting about as far as Iannuzzi (8.8 average). Option two is to put Chris Williams back there. Right now he is getting a few short passes (16 rep's for 13 yard average) from either quarterback and not much else. That is little production from a big signing. He can rotate in and out at wide receiver. He was an amazing returner.




Most people on the list complain about Wally and his old school predictability - myself being one of them - here is an opportunity to make the other teams adjust on the fly. Play Rainey.

I am glad they are playing more Vaillencourt - he is a wall. He also has played virtually penalty free. On the D-line I would go with Ford and Luke as my tackles - inexperience in Luke is made up with strength - also this helps with the ratio numbers. I like what Shirley has shown so far and think he should get more reps and gain more confidence.

Right tackle is a problem - roll away from there and toss the ball on the run. A few ideas. Team needs a shake up: too predictable right now. Any other ideas?
It went through my mind as well that at this point, Rainey is buried (literally and figuratively) on the teams and would feature better by appearing more often on offence. Take him off returns where he is being wasted and leave it to Ianuzzi and Murray-Lawrence. The teams are not performing and Rainey looks like he is going to lose it. Wally argued last year that Rainey would not get much work on offence as it would be detrimental to his return game.
Well, right now Rainey is essentially an untapped resource compared to what he can do.
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B.C.FAN
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I don't know how many snaps Rainey is getting but he has had a much bigger role in the offence this year, especially as a receiver with Bryan Burnham and Nick Moore out of the lineup.

Rainey had a season-high 5 catches against Calgary on Friday and has 23 catches for 237 yards through the first half of the season. He had just 12 catches for 95 yards through the first 9 games last year.

His rushing totals are also roughly double what they were last year. He has 20 carries for 72 yards through 9 games this year. He had just 12 carries for 35 yards at the same point last year.

Rainey has great hands, blazing speed and shifty moves. He can be a fourth international receiver and take the pressure off Manny Arceneaux, Chris Williams and whoever else is in the starting lineup.
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DanoT
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When Harris was a Lion I thought his multi talent as a runner and receiver were under utilized and now something similar is going on with the multi talented , (but with different skills) Rainy.

In the past when Harris and Logan where in the same backfield, both did great but for some reason the Lions never stuck with this set up.

Now with a couple of WRs out with injuries it would seem like a good time to just play Johnson and Rainy in the backfield full time.
Blitz
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There are so many good thoughts and good ideas on this board.. If our Leos coaching staff only incorporated a few of them, we would be a much better team.

Cromartie posted recently that you success starts first on the offensive and defensive lines (or something about their priority importance).

Yet, for some reason, we made a receiver a priority as a free agent. That would have been ok if we had the money but not ok if it meant hurting our offensive line to do so. Why? Because a quarterback can't throw to any receiver when he is flat on his back or racing for his life back there.

But we didn't need to sign Williams. We could gone with Rainey instead on offence...using him as a second tailback who also lined up as a receiver as well. Rainey has Willie Fleming like abilities. He's faster than Williams and is much more versatile. Plus we would not have needed to trade Olifioye and had an outstanding right tackle playing for us right now and shoring up our pass protection (we've given up the most sacks in the CFL.

Had we gone with Rainey on offence (and used a cheap import as a return man) we could have inserted Rainey as a punt returner on occasion as we do with Iannuzzi,.

With Rainey and Johnson in the backfield, we could have used a lot of misdirection, motion, ran inside and outside, as well as line up Rainey in the five receiever/ace backfield at times too. It would have caused defenses many problems. Now, when we are in the two back set, we usually have Lumbala and Johnson and the defense adjusts, as they do when we are in the ace back/five receiver set. With a versatile Rainey who can play tailback and receiver, they would not have been able to do that. It could have been Willie Fleming 2.

As for Khari Jones as an offensive coordinator, he appears to be the better coordinator of the two coordinators we have but he also has more tools to work with. In terms of our skill positions on offence, he has a high end tailback in Johnson, the dynamic Rainey, three receivers with speed in Burnham, Shaq Johnson, and Williams, and a really tough determined receiver in Manny. He also has two very talented quarterbacks in Jennings and Lulay.

He has two major challenges to deal with. He has to use the Hufnagel playbook that worked very, very well when it was an innovative offence in the 90's but its 2017 and we basically use the same playbook today. The only real adjustment is that we use zone blocking for our one running play - the inside zone read. It just amazes me that Calgary will run the sweep with Messam a number of times a game (even though the play is usually not that successful) to challenge the edge whereas we have Rainey and we always run him inside.

Jones is also hamstrung by an offensive line coach who has historically had too many seasons in which our pass protection has been abysmal, especially when we have had offensive line talent. That offensive line coach has also played players when common sense said other wise - for whatever reasons - such as benching Steward last season, when he was playing well, for a player who Tim O'Neil, signed free agent Levi Adcock and then stuck with him for too many games, and started Faucault at guard, a new position, when he wasn't yet ready while pining Vaillencourt, who has been a wall in pass protection while run blocking very well too.

Pass protection has been an ongoing issue, at times hidden somewhat by the fact that we have had such mobile quarterbacks who could escape and run the football very well. All one has to do is look at our 2014 season, with Kevin Glenn playing quarterback to see the difference. Glenn was buried in 2014 and he is a wily quarterback in the pocket who can slide but he had no chance. Our quarterbacks have most often made Dorazio look much better than deserved.

Dorazio is an offensive line coach who is a zealot. One would think his results would be better. But blitz pickup and stunt pickup has so often been a problem for his offensive lines. The Riders game was an example. They only rushed three for most of the game but we had Cody Husband blocking one on one while our tackles usually took on the defensive ends while our guards just hung out in space most of the game protecting against a defensive end who took an inside rush route. Blitz and stunt pickup are usually even more problematic, offensive scheme wise.

I really can't blame Jones for offensive predictability. Its been a problem for every offensive coordinator we have had. As Rammer and David have pointed out, the last time we really had an offensive coordinator whose offence could have a lot of differences from one game to the next was Steve Burratto. Since then Chap adjusted the offence the most in th second half of 2011 and 2012 but still, it mostly comprised the same old spread offence but Chap just added a ton of motion and misdirection to the plays to better disguise them and added a few plays such as the jet sweep and the fake reverse and bootleg run/throw to get Lulay outside with Harris finding a hole in the zone underneath.

A huge problem for the players who play in our offence is overcoming predictability. Our offensive linemen have to run block, with running plays often tipped off before hand and also having to block the run play inside all the time, often against a defensive front and linebackers who outnumber them. They also have to pass block while the pocket is always stationary.

Our tailback only has one running play and the play is often tipped off. Our quarterback is stuck in the pocket with predictable pass plays to overcome, as well as a pass rush that is often in his face and the pocket never intentionally moved. Last game, on the first play of the game, Calgary designed a fake inside counter run and Bo Levi came off the fake misdirection run, bootlegged right, had tons of time as our defensive end bit on the fake counter, and threw deep to a wide open Calgary receiver (who dropped the football) But all game, with the Stampeders pass rush often furious, we never moved the pocket once for Jennings. In the second half Jennings started to do that on his own but we've seen that often before, from Printers to Pierce to Lulay.

But defenses learn to take away any quarterback tendency that is used in an attempt to overcome our predictable offence. For example, defenses sent an extra blitzer against Lulay and spied him. With Jennings they often drop a lot into coverage to take away his deep ball, that he often has to throw with pinpoint accuracy and the receiver has to high point the football and make a great catch to overcome the coverage.

Our receivers also face the same problems. Told to 'execute', the often have to deal with double teams (Burnham, Manny), predictable routes or route tendencies that are pre-scouted.

Jonathan Jennings has not had a good season to date. Why is fairly easy to determine. As with our quarterbacks before him from Dickenson to Printers to Pierce to Jackson to Lualy to Glenn to Lulay to Jennings, all of these quarterbacks, as time moves on have to overcome offensive predictability plus the defense focused on taking away their strengths. Its what all our offensive players deal with in one way or the other. Travis Lulay had a good four games but if he had continued to play, our offensive predictability combined with his tendencies would result in poorer play.

The problem is that our coaching staff doesn't do what needs to be done to help our players. If we changed things up more on offence each game, opposition pre-scouting would not be as effective and if we ran less predictable plays, and our formations often tip off our plays, our players would be able to 'execute' much better.

Khari Jones offence should be amongst the best inthe league, with the weapons that he has to utilize. An average offensive coordinator should be getting those kind of results. If one wants to look at excellent offensive coordinator results, look at Winnipeg's offence. They have only scored one less point than Calgary, have Nichols as their quarterback and don't have a strong receiving crew and yet they are getting it done with smart offence and getting the most out of their talent.

But Jones, who each game has added a wrinkle or two is not going to start changing things up very much. Why? No offensive coordinator has done that in the Buono era....not Chap or Dorazio or Jones or Cortez or back to Jones.

The reason is simple. We have a plug and play philosophy. We are rigid and 'stuck'. The reason that we are is based upon arrogance. No matter any evidence to the contrary, the belief is there that our systems and schemes are superior and the only problems we have is that there are too many occasions where our players don't 'execute' our superior schemes, are the only problem, and blamed.

That plug and play philosophy has been reflected on defence this season, as it has before. In the past, we took a Keron Williams and tried to make him an oversized defensive end. We used an undersized David Menard as a defensive tackle to begin with. We tried to make Roh a defensive tackle with dubious results. We took an Alex Bazzie, at a sopping 220 pounds and tried to make him an every down defensive end too often and he ran out of gas.

This season we took defensive halfback Thompson and converted him at training camp to field corner and then switched him to safety. We took Purifoy and switched him to safety with less than a week before our first game and then switched him to halfback. The thought process is simple. The player is a defensive back and an athlete. Players are pieces of chess on a board. You just plug a player into the different chess piece and demand they execute.

We do the same thing on offence. We've switched from wide side slot to short side wideout from one week to the next as we did with Williams last game.

But at the pro level, it can take years to learn the nuances of a position. Each position has many complex aspects that require time to learn and on defense, when you play zone as much as we do, then understanding route patterns and tendencies is even more important.

Its often frustrating to watch and its even more frustrating to see talent handicapped. But it is what it is.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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