Riders 41 - Lions 8, Post-Game Stats and Comments

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TheLionKing
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Who out there still think the Lions are a talented team ? I keep hearing and reading about it. The offensive and defensive line has been an ongoing problem the last few years and it still isn't resolved.
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Rammer
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Calgary doesn't have an off game like this in a season that they're average let alone when they are a premiere team.

At this point the Lions have lost the season series to two teams, without having played one and the other only at home.

That tells you that the Lions are an average team at best. Don't expect more and your disappointment will not be as great. That said, the Riders aren't very good, and had lots of changes as well. The town doesn't hurt teams like Vancouver or Montreal can. Maybe given the crowd atmosphere, it should motivate the opposition even. Inexplicabebly the players collectively decided to take the night off in Regina.

There are character wins as we all know, but this had better be a Lions that is looking at themselves in the mirror this morning. They are professionals that must realize that their paycheques are dependent on the gate. That performance isn't going to help improve the gate going into stretch drive.

In the end the fail list goes much further than just this effort, it includes ticket sales, standings, and team confidence. Add to that having a short turn around for the Stamps, and the potential is larger for an upcoming loss. The crossover all of a sudden comes into full view. Wow what a horrible game to lay an egg on.

That is said without emotion, just the reality of that kind of loss. My family and I lost any emotional investment in the game by the end of the first quarter, watching the entire game though. I can't imagine how quickly Joe average fan tuned out.

Not sure I should invest in tickets for the Stamps game, a game I had on my must see home games.
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David
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WestCoastJoe wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:31 am
The_Pauser wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:20 am
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:58 pm
We were unprepared. Others will not want to hear it, but IMO that is on the coaches. It was like the players had tuned them out.
I disagree. These are pro athletes. If they need coaches to get up for a game then they should not be pro athletes. If we had the wrong game plan and were being exposed in that way, then you can put it on the coaches. But this team was not motivated, probably felt like they could walk in there and this would be an easy win. That's on the athlete, NOT coaches.
I will stand by my comment.

Whether a football player is professional or amateur, they respond to coaches for morale and motivation. There are loads of examples throughout history.

As noted, others will see it differently. Blame the players or blame the coaches? I put it on the coaches, who also choose the personnel.

Systems. Game planning. Play calls. Motivation. Personnel selection. All on the coaching staff.

My last word on this disagreement. The Pauser got me to respond once, but that is it for this issue.
I agree 100% WestCoastJoe. We have some talented pieces. Where we fall behind is IMO our line play, special teams, and depth. I think there are about 6 guys on our roster that just aren't pro-ready.

But I also don't think our coaching is as strong as our competitors. Sorry, it's just not. Scheme wise, we can't seem draw up plays that takes advantage of what the opponent is doing. 3-man rush with 7 guys dropping back into zone and cover 2, and we keep going deep? Can we not draw up simple screens and flare passes, to get guys open in space?? We have a world-class playmaker in Chris Rainey who has to scratch and claw for every inch of space of the field. And now we have two guys with sub-4.4 speed and we can't figure out a way to exploit it??

Then on defense, do we not lead the league in busted coverage and guys just not knowing what the hell they're supposed to be doing? One guy comes out in the secondary and we resort to wholesale changes. SMH. I love Chandler Fenner, but taking Purifoy out of his nickel position is a solution looking for a problem.

Then there's the Oline guru whose guys at or near the top just about every year in sacks and quarterback hurries. Whiffff! It's a statistical improbability to blame this solely on talent. :bang:

And for the record, I did not observe a condescending tone in any of WestCoastJoe's posts.


DH :cool:
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I was on the fence about going to the CGY game, as I said to my friend on Saturday, "depends on how the qbs look vs SSK'. Going into that game, I did have some misgivings that neither JJ10 or TL were actually fully healthy. Add to that CGY coming off their bye vs BC on a short week.

Now I'm 90% certain I won't be going--I don't want to sit through a 60-1 HAM-style demolition. I never leave a game early no matter what happens, but it's looking like this team isn't ready to turn it around against a top tier team. I hope the Lions prove me wrong.
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The_Pauser
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Rammer wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:44 pm
Calgary doesn't have an off game like this in a season that they're average let alone when they are a premiere team.

At this point the Lions have lost the season series to two teams, without having played one and the other only at home.

That tells you that the Lions are an average team at best. Don't expect more and your disappointment will not be as great. That said, the Riders aren't very good, and had lots of changes as well. The town doesn't hurt teams like Vancouver or Montreal can. Maybe given the crowd atmosphere, it should motivate the opposition even. Inexplicabebly the players collectively decided to take the night off in Regina.

There are character wins as we all know, but this had better be a Lions that is looking at themselves in the mirror this morning. They are professionals that must realize that their paycheques are dependent on the gate. That performance isn't going to help improve the gate going into stretch drive.

In the end the fail list goes much further than just this effort, it includes ticket sales, standings, and team confidence. Add to that having a short turn around for the Stamps, and the potential is larger for an upcoming loss. The crossover all of a sudden comes into full view. Wow what a horrible game to lay an egg on.

That is said without emotion, just the reality of that kind of loss. My family and I lost any emotional investment in the game by the end of the first quarter, watching the entire game though. I can't imagine how quickly Joe average fan tuned out.

Not sure I should invest in tickets for the Stamps game, a game I had on my must see home games.
It's going back a few years, but in 2012 the Lions beat Calgary 34-8, in Calgary. The Stamps went on to play for the Grey Cup that year. It has happened. It's all about how the team responds.
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The_Pauser
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David wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:07 pm
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:31 am
The_Pauser wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:20 am


I disagree. These are pro athletes. If they need coaches to get up for a game then they should not be pro athletes. If we had the wrong game plan and were being exposed in that way, then you can put it on the coaches. But this team was not motivated, probably felt like they could walk in there and this would be an easy win. That's on the athlete, NOT coaches.
I will stand by my comment.

Whether a football player is professional or amateur, they respond to coaches for morale and motivation. There are loads of examples throughout history.

As noted, others will see it differently. Blame the players or blame the coaches? I put it on the coaches, who also choose the personnel.

Systems. Game planning. Play calls. Motivation. Personnel selection. All on the coaching staff.

My last word on this disagreement. The Pauser got me to respond once, but that is it for this issue.
I agree 100% WestCoastJoe. We have some talented pieces. Where we fall behind is IMO our line play, special teams, and depth. I think there are about 6 guys on our roster that just aren't pro-ready.

But I also don't think our coaching is as strong as our competitors. Sorry, it's just not. Scheme wise, we can't seem draw up plays that takes advantage of what the opponent is doing. 3-man rush with 7 guys dropping back into zone and cover 2, and we keep going deep? Can we not draw up simple screens and flare passes, to get guys open in space?? We have a world-class playmaker in Chris Rainey who has to scratch and claw for every inch of space of the field. And now we have two guys with sub-4.4 speed and we can't figure out a way to exploit it??

Then on defense, do we not lead the league in busted coverage and guys just not knowing what the hell they're supposed to be doing? One guy comes out in the secondary and we resort to wholesale changes. SMH. I love Chandler Fenner, but taking Purifoy out of his nickel position is a solution looking for a problem.

Then there's the Oline guru whose guys at or near the top just about every year in sacks and quarterback hurries. Whiffff! It's a statistical improbability to blame this solely on talent. :bang:

And for the record, I did not observe a condescending tone in any of WestCoastJoe's posts.


DH :cool:
His final sentence was condescending. It's quite off-putting given how much he whined with another poster disagreed with him last week about coaching. Oh well.

When a team can't stop a 3-man rush, how can you put that on schemes? I saw Kevin Palmer get walked around with ease. How was that schemes? Talent? Yes. That's a problem on our O-Line and D-Line. But when 5 men can't stop 3, there's more to that than just schemes. The most basic of schemes should be able to stop a 3 man rush.

And again, something you seemingly agreed with but did not address: professional athletes should be able to motivate themselves for a game, and a lack of motivation is on the athlete, not the coach.
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The final score of Riders 41 and our B.C. Lions 8 was flattering to our Leos as we got our butts whupped in almost every aspect of this game from coaching, game planning, play calling, offensive and defensive line play, blocking, tackling, motivation, pride and the list goes on.

W'e're all aware that the second game of a back to back, playing on the opposition's home turf following a convincing win the week before is a potential recipe for a complacent performance. But the excuses stop there. There may be potential for a first half performance that does not meet standard or the potential for an upset. But there is no excuse for this embarrassing, humiliating type of performance and especially with the talent that is on this Leos team.

You would never see the Calgary Stampeders come up with this kind of performance. Not a John Hufnagel led team nor a Dave Dickenson led team. The Stamps won 16 games and tied one, following their opening season loss to us last season. How is it that these coaches can get their players to be motivated in back to back games rather than be humiliated?

We were shut out for three quarters of this game while giving up 36 points during those three quarters. That is 36-0 against the Saskatchewan Rough Riders.

Yes, this is one game and one loss but its also more than that. There is difference between losing a back to back game and this type of loss. It says a lot about a lot. It says a lot about our coaching, our player leadership, and our team environment. It even says something about most of the reporters who cover this team and spew out the same pablum all the time, rather than writing about the real issues.

Yes, there is enough blame to go around but I will start with "THE GOOD", even though there was little of it in this contest before reflecting on the much lesser aspects of this loss.

THE GOOD

While the first half of the game was nothing less than disastrous, our Leos offence opened up the second half with a second down dump off to Jeremiah Johnson and he made a great cut to turn what looked like a two and out into a first down. On the third play of the second half, Jennings handed off to Johnson, who cut behind a great block by Charles Vaillencourt and turned on the jets for a 50 yard scamper to the Riders 5 yard line. But it all went for a naught after a one yard run by Rainey and the second down toss to Chris Williams was bobbled and intercepted.

To begin the fourth quarter, our offence finally put a drive together. Jennings completed short passes to Iannuzzi and Manny and then hit Manny for a 20 yard gain. The drive culminated in a touchdown as Jennings hit Williams 32 yards behind coverage and Williams ran another 25 yards to pay dirt.

Jeremiah Johnson had 59 yards on 5 carries for an 11.8 yd rush average. But the stat is deceiving as Williams only had 9 yard on 4 carries, with his 50 yard run fattening his rush average.

Chris Williams was our leading receiver and he played well, overall, even though his performance was tainted by his red zone bobble that led to another Rider interception. Shaq Johnson had two catches for 73 yds (36.6 yd average) and continues to be a deep threat.

On defense, while there were few highlights, some individual players gave it their all. Those players were once again Maxx Forde, who hustled all game, Junior Luke, who came in to play for the injured Brooks and had one sack and contributed to a second sack by Sol E due to his penetration. Sol E. had 7 tackles in the game and played solidly, as per usual.

On special teams, Ty Long once again punted very well and had a 46.8 yd. average. Considering that he had an 18 yard clunker towards the end of the game, as the cancer eventually even affected him, Long had a good game punting the football.

Jordan Herdman had 3 special teams tackles and Adrian Clarke contributed with two downfield tackles.

THE BAD

Where does one start? Well, accountability and responsibility always start and end at the top. So that is where I will begin but accountability and responsibility for a loss like this has to be shared amongst many.

1. Wally Buono and his Coaching Staff

When you refer to yourself as a "Legend" then one expects 'legendary'' coaching and 'legendary' leadership. That certainly was not evident in this game.

Leadership is about 'readiness' and 'motivation'. Its also about 'preparation' based upon the circumstances. There was no readiness, motivation, or preparation created for this contest. Buono said he was unhappy with his team the week prior. He was concerned about his players attitude going into this contest. He got upset in the dressing room prior to the game, as his players did not gather around him when he began his pre-game talk to his players.

But what did Buono do about any of those things. Nothing much it appears. Buono should have had a hard practice week in preparation for this game. He should have changed some aspects of his game planning in preparation for a back to back. He should have instilled the importance of the contest and the significance of a loss. He should have ripped a strip off his players in the dressing room or got them excited to play. Instead he acted like a child, whined and sulked, and passed the baton to Rolly Lumbala. That is not 'legendary' leadership.

There is a notion amongst some B.C. Lions fans that we need a hard ass like Buono as a coach. Yet, Dave Dickenson is not that type of coach and he motivates his players and commands respect. The Eskimos are undefeated and yet Jason Maas is more intense than hard. The Bombers, now they have some talent, (but nowhere near the talent our Leos have) are winning with O'Shea, a HC who doesn't yell at his players as they come off the field to the sidelines and who has installed some successful systems

But this is not just on Buono. Its also on his assistant coaches, who lack the type of presence that can command respect. But its Buono who chooses to hire what I perceive to be more of a sychophant type of assistant coach who owes his present coaching stature to Buono and would very likely have a very difficult time securing the same coaching position with another team.

Dorazio, let go by Tedford here in B.C. and by Chris Jones owes his opportunity to keep coaching due to Buono. Our Leos lead the league in giving up the most quarterback sacks in the CFL but there will be no spotlight on Dorazio by Buono. There wasn't in his previous tenure here in B.C. , in spite of dubious results for many seasons.

Khari Jones began his coaching career as the quarterbacks coach for the Hamilton Tiger-Cats under head coach Marcel Bellefeuille. In 2011, he was promoted to offensive coordinator and let go. Jones then went to the Riders as a quarterbacks coach before being hired here in B.C. as our offensive coordinator after other hopefuls refused the position. Jones was let go by Tedford but was retained as a receivers coach rather than being paid out the second season of his contract before being rehired by Buono as our offensive coordinator, regardless of his 2014 struggles in the position here.

Jones has such outstanding talent that the weapons he has to utilize each game has to be the envy of most offensive coordinators in the CFL and yet he trots out the same stuff game after game.

Mark Washington owes his job to Buono. His overall defensive record and his lack of having his defense ready for playoff games should be such that his coaching position is tenuous at best. Buono dumped Stubler after his second season. Stubler had the best defense in Leos history in his first season, setting numerous records. Stubler was dumped by Buono because Durrant took off in the fourth quarter for some key first downs of the 2013 West Semi-Final. Sol E. was hurt and didn't play that game. Stubler was blamed. Yet Washington has been able to have our defense completely unprepared for playoff games since with no repurcussions. Instead he is considered the incumbent to Buono.

In this game, Regina rushed 3 defenders most of the contest. Last week they only rushed 3 defenders 17% of the time. But with Jennings past ability to throw the deep ball and the intermediate deep ball, they focused on taking those threats away, as most CFL defenses attempt to do against Jennings since Calgary did it with a Cover 2 in the third regular season contest last year with great success.

Yet Jones somehow didn't anticipate that strategy in his game planning nor did he adjust for it early. He did not release Johnson out of the backfield early in the contest. He had press coverage on Williams and had his running quick slants while using Manny on corner patterns. He did not have receivers running the type of routes needed against that type of defence. Dorazio could not get our offensive line to pass block adequately against a 3 man rush.

13 quarterback hurries, 11 hits, four sacks. That is more than a personnel problem. Its also a coaching problem.

On defense, Mark Washington's defense looked better last week than it is because it was not challenged deep. In this game it was and our scheme deficiencies were highlighted. It was so frustrating to watch Marshall take a dump pass for a touchdown, knowing that Sol E. could not get to the flat in time because Washington has him covering both the interior hook zone and the flat at the same time. We don't cover the back out of the backfield. Harris caught 12 passes against us when we played the Bombers and could have caught 25 passes. Offensive coordinators watch tape. Its inexcusable for this to keep happening.

As for special teams, we have the worst punt return team in the CFL with the CFL's best return man. On each punt play there are defenders surrounding Rainey who are completely unblocked. Its a disgrace and its been that way all season so far and not just in this game.

B.C. Fan wrote on the game thread:
The Riders know the B.C. playbook better than the Lions. Most B.C. plays are telegraphed before the snap.
So here is our Leos general scenario. The more often an opposing team plays us the better the opposition will be and the worse we will be is the general trend. The reason is quite simple: Their coaching is better than ours. Dorazio, Jones, and Washington are not elite coordinators to be kind. Buono is not a strategist and he can be set in his ways. Our coaching staff, as it is comprised, IMO, is more due to their unquestionable loyalty and admiration of Buono as well as their willingness to be obedient, unquestioning soldiers than for their coaching prowness.

Jones should have the most dynamic offence in the league with the weapons he has. Do we ever see Rainey on a quick toss, a sweep, a misdirection reverse or a wheel route, with his speed and cutting ability. Nope! Will we see Williams on a jet sweep ever or a jailbreak screen? Likely not.

Washington's defense should be much better and especially much better game planned for our opponents, and our special teams return game is an embarrassment, with the quality of Chris Rainey as our return man.

Whether its on Buono, our coordinators, or our assistant coaches, or on all of them, our game planning is just not up to par. In this game, we knew Jennings had been out a month so offensively, in the first quarter or quarter and a half, we should have been determined to a) run the football and b) give him high percentage pass plays to get in a groove . Success breeds more success and failure often leads to more failure.

Our coordinators seem to lack of presence. They seem like classic nice guys but they don't create a strong sense of confidence and their game plans and strategies do not inspire. They are rigid and predictable, most of the time, with an occasional ray of hope thrown in to tantalize but they often disappoint. We rely way too much on our star players 'making outstanding plays' than on strategy.

They say the trend is your friend. Recently, it was suggested to me that I was looking too far back and the more recent trend should be more heavily weighted. Since the SMS and the loss of Bobby Ackles, in looking back at Wally Buono's teams over his last 5 seasons as a coach, his teams have finished 3rd in the West (2008), lost in the West Final, finished 4th in the West (2009), lost in the East Final, and 4th in the West (2010) and lost in the West Semi-Final. In 2011, we started 1-6 before going on a winning streak culminating in our last Grey Cup victory. Last season our Leos finished 2nd in the West. and lost badly in the West Final.

Looking at that record, perhaps my expectations are too high for this 2017 Leos team. But this team has Grey Cup championship talent overall and outstanding depth in most positions and therefore its difficult to reduce expectations.

Coaches are hired with the ability to motivate as one of the key requisites of being hired. It goes with the territory. If all players needed was a playbook and practice time, we wouldn't need to hire coaches. They could do it themselves - just give them a system to use.

Our talent and depth is very high. Our coaching is average to mediocre at times. In order to win our talent has to overcome the opposition's superior coaching. I realize its not going to change but I am never going to lay down and accept it either. All I feel we can hope for is for Wally to be pushed to the wall enough to make some strategic changes as he did partway though 2011, when our Leos started 0-5 and 1-6. The West is very tough this year and games like this are not repeatable if we want to become a championship caliber team.

THE PLAYERS

Most games, our players play hard and many of our players make incredible plays in order to secure wins. But not in this game. They were unfocused, listless, unmotivated. The question is why? It was more than just complacency and a snowball effect. Something looked seriously wrong that was affecting almost the entire team and was happening before this game.

Player leadership is a key component of winning. We seem to have quality player leaders on this squad. Rolly Lumbala, Travis Lulay, Sol E, .are character vets. But they were not able to influence their teammates.

Players are pros but they did not play this game like pros. Jonathan Jennings was unprepared mentally to play this game. That is a coaching problem but its also a problem that he also needs to take ownership of. Yes, the pass rush was brutal for a 3 man dffensive rush but he has played enough games now to be able to see what the secondary is doing.

Throwing deep and deep intermediate passes continuously against a 9 man pass defense focused on taking away deeper routes in the first half was not wise. Jennings has the best deep ball arm I have ever seen in a Leos uniform. But still, as a quarterback he has to be more mentally prepared for the opposition as a quarterback and also be able to make in game adjustments quicker. He didn't seem to have his usual accuracy but that is no excuse for some of his throws. They were just bad decisions.

But Lulay and Ross also had their struggles. This was not just a quarterback problem. Receivers often ran terrible routes and the offensive line didn't pass block worth a dam, individually as well as collectively.

In this game Jennings was 14/30 (46.7%) for 195 yds. Lulay was 5/9 (55.6%) for 54 yds. Ross was 1/3 (33%) for 16 yds. Those are miserable numbers.

One thing that we know is that pressure over time can really create havoc with a quarterback's mind. In this game, the consistent pressure of the Riders 3 man rush combined with the headache of having 9 defenders playing pass defense proved too much. We've seen this in the past. Quarterbacks, with too much pressure in their face will revert back to bad habits learned young. Lulay would revert back to his younger days when he could take off and outrun everyone. Jennings reverts back to throwing long balls. Its a tough position but being a pro means being mentally tough at quarterback and being very self-disciplined.

I thought our best offensive lineman was Vaillencourt but too often he didn't double team anyone in pass blocking but just protected the inside against the defensive end. Steward was ok but not his best self. Husband had to deal with too many one on one's in pass blocking. Fabian got beat a couple of times too easily. Powell was mostly awful.

I was worried about our right tackle position going into this season and I'm even more worried now.

On defense, of the 420 yards of offence we gave up, 157 of those yards were after the catch. That is just plain awful. There was a lack of tackling, lack of positioning, and lack of effort from too many players on defense.

On special teams, I would just be happy if one of our punt blockers actually tried to block somebody. Most of the time they are not in a position to block anyone.

The players in this game deserve just as much blame as the coaches. Even if saddled with a bad game plan or a predictable scheme, there is no excuse for a lack of motivation, poor tackling, lack of hustle, and lack of intensity.

THE UGLY

There was too much ugly in this game to write a lot about it. A good chunk has been mentioned. Two of Jennings interceptions were butt ugly decisions. Chris Wiliams bumble inside the red zone hurt. Vandervoot watching a football sail between his hands and hit him in the helmot looked ugly. Lumbala losing it on the sideline was ugly. Buddy Jackson being blocked so easily and for so long on Marshall's touchdown pass and run was ugly. Longs' 18 yard punt was ugly. Powell's play was so ugly on one pass block attempt that he looked like a pretzel while completely whiffing on the block.

Our game plan was ugly, the pre-game brief talk by Wally was ugly, our blocking and tackling were ugly. The whole game was mostly ugly.

WRAP

We play the Stamps with a short week. Its not time to put this game behind us but to learn the lessons from it and quickly and rebound back.

Hopefully our coaching staff and our players will have a practice week where they can get their heads screwed on a hell of a lot tighter and get ready for Calgary.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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Sir Purrcival
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maxlion wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:40 pm
Sir Purrcival wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:09 pm
It's actually a bit of column a and b. I am going to point the finger a little more at the game plan than all of the other things that were wrong with this team last night. If nothing else, you have QB who is coming off an injury and is going to be rusty. Is that the time you create a game plan that requires long stays in the pocket, long routes and hoping that a suspect Oline is going to provide the kind of protection that a QB needs under those circumstances? In short, I think not. What was critical in this game right from the start was some ball control. The Riders coming full pull, fine, do some roll outs, throw some screens, short passes to the flat or short outs. Give Jenning's some plays that don't require him to think too much or try to go for that long pass. The game plan seemed way out of step for a QB that has been off for awhile. His timing was off, his touch was off and he wasn't getting time to go through second and third reads. He looked like a deer in the headlights and our coaching did nothing to help him with the game plan. That I put on Jones. So we have an injured QB coming back, we have a backup that is now nicked and we are at game 8. And the trend continues. Our Oline was ridiculously bad last night. As has been mentioned, they often outnumbered the rushers and still continually got beat like rented mules.
Again, adjustments to the game plan that may have helped them didn't seem to be forthcoming either. Players looked like they were confused and in times like that it is the coaching that is supposed to help sort those things out.
I agree with most of this. The only thing I would question--and I honestly don't know the answer--is how many of the bad plays were a result of Jennings making a poor decision and how many were a result of the play design. Jennings' accuracy was terrible. If you combine this with poor decision making, that would be a combination that no amount of coaching or oline play could overcome. Also, I seem to be in the minority here, but I felt the oline was okay. The qb consistently had time to throw but hesitated for whatever reason.
I don't know either how much Jennings own decisions played in exactly but my impression is that most QB's are run from the bench. In other words, they don't make the calls. So when I see long developing routes, no quick pitches, screens or roll outs, I generally put this at the feet of the play calling. It was clear from very early on that the Riders had a big head of steam up and were going to pressure relentlessly. It appeared that we made little if any adjustment except for eventually putting in Lulay. They just didn't do it and since there have been many discussions in the past about our coaching seeming to have a hard time making adjustments, my inclination is to blame them. They formulated the game plan. It was clear the Rider's were ready for it but we seemingly stuck with it anyways.
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WestCoastJoe
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David wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:07 pm
I agree 100% WestCoastJoe. We have some talented pieces. Where we fall behind is IMO our line play, special teams, and depth. I think there are about 6 guys on our roster that just aren't pro-ready.

But I also don't think our coaching is as strong as our competitors. Sorry, it's just not. Scheme wise, we can't seem draw up plays that takes advantage of what the opponent is doing. 3-man rush with 7 guys dropping back into zone and cover 2, and we keep going deep? Can we not draw up simple screens and flare passes, to get guys open in space?? We have a world-class playmaker in Chris Rainey who has to scratch and claw for every inch of space of the field. And now we have two guys with sub-4.4 speed and we can't figure out a way to exploit it??

Then on defense, do we not lead the league in busted coverage and guys just not knowing what the hell they're supposed to be doing? One guy comes out in the secondary and we resort to wholesale changes. SMH. I love Chandler Fenner, but taking Purifoy out of his nickel position is a solution looking for a problem.

Then there's the Oline guru whose guys at or near the top just about every year in sacks and quarterback hurries. Whiffff! It's a statistical improbability to blame this solely on talent. :bang:

And for the record, I did not observe a condescending tone in any of WestCoastJoe's posts.


DH :cool:
Thanks for the support, David.

I always look forward to your posts. Plenty of insight, with the passion of a long-time Lions' fan. :thup:
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WestCoastJoe
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Another excellent post, Blitz. As always, I was looking forward to reading your views. Detailed, reasoned and passionate. :thup:
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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DanoT
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I agree with Pauser that players should be able to self motivate. The intensity wasn't there.

However, more than any other sport, football is about coaches influence on the outcome of a game, ya the players have to execute the plays correctly but a coach calls every play and makes or doesn't make adjustments.

When a running game, short passes, crossing routes etc were needed, the proper plays weren't called. Wouldn't rolling out, changing the launch point be an effective counter to the 3 man rush/everyone is covered D that the Lions were seeing? I don't have the answers but I expect the coaching staff to have some answers.
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The_Pauser
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DanoT wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:31 pm
I agree with Pauser that players should be able to self motivate. The intensity wasn't there.

However, more than any other sport, football is about coaches influence on the outcome of a game, ya the players have to execute the plays correctly but a coach calls every play and makes or doesn't make adjustments.

When a running game, short passes, crossing routes etc were needed, the proper plays weren't called. Wouldn't rolling out, changing the launch point be an effective counter to the 3 man rush/everyone is covered D that the Lions were seeing? I don't have the answers but I expect the coaching staff to have some answers.
I agree with this. The coaching staff should have made some adjustments, and there wasn't much of that going on either.
Roar you Lions roar!
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Motivation is about creating an environment that fosters expectations of success and accountability. The rah rah stuff is just a tiny part of motivation. The ability to motivate a team is a key leadership skill and responsibility.

Professional athletes are probably more motivated to compete in a competitive environment than regular folks, but within this subgroup, there will be a range of responses to adversity. Some players, like Lulay or Mike Reilly, are already leaders and need less external motivation. But there are lots of young guys who definitely need leadership to maintain a high level of motivation over the course of a season.

Leadership of a big group like a football team cannot derive only from a single person. By asking Rolly to talk to the team pregame, Wally was distributing the leadership responsibilities. This is a legitimate approach and itself demonstrates an important leadership quality.
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Sir Purrcival wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:03 pm
maxlion wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:40 pm


I agree with most of this. The only thing I would question--and I honestly don't know the answer--is how many of the bad plays were a result of Jennings making a poor decision and how many were a result of the play design. Jennings' accuracy was terrible. If you combine this with poor decision making, that would be a combination that no amount of coaching or oline play could overcome. Also, I seem to be in the minority here, but I felt the oline was okay. The qb consistently had time to throw but hesitated for whatever reason.
I don't know either how much Jennings own decisions played in exactly but my impression is that most QB's are run from the bench. In other words, they don't make the calls. So when I see long developing routes, no quick pitches, screens or roll outs, I generally put this at the feet of the play calling. It was clear from very early on that the Riders had a big head of steam up and were going to pressure relentlessly. It appeared that we made little if any adjustment except for eventually putting in Lulay. They just didn't do it and since there have been many discussions in the past about our coaching seeming to have a hard time making adjustments, my inclination is to blame them. They formulated the game plan. It was clear the Rider's were ready for it but we seemingly stuck with it anyways.
My sense is that both Khari and Jennings favour going for the big play. Given what the riders were doing on defense and rust on Jennings coming back from injury, Khari should have reined in this tendency. He could have provided better guidance to Jennings and called plays that helped Jennings get back into the flow and took better advantage of what the Riders were doing.
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Sir Purrcival wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:09 pm
It's actually a bit of column a and b. I am going to point the finger a little more at the game plan than all of the other things that were wrong with this team last night. If nothing else, you have QB who is coming off an injury and is going to be rusty. Is that the time you create a game plan that requires long stays in the pocket, long routes and hoping that a suspect Oline is going to provide the kind of protection that a QB needs under those circumstances? In short, I think not. What was critical in this game right from the start was some ball control. The Riders coming full pull, fine, do some roll outs, throw some screens, short passes to the flat or short outs. Give Jenning's some plays that don't require him to think too much or try to go for that long pass. The game plan seemed way out of step for a QB that has been off for awhile. His timing was off, his touch was off and he wasn't getting time to go through second and third reads. He looked like a deer in the headlights and our coaching did nothing to help him with the game plan. That I put on Jones. So we have an injured QB coming back, we have a backup that is now nicked and we are at game 8. And the trend continues. Our Oline was ridiculously bad last night. As has been mentioned, they often outnumbered the rushers and still continually got beat like rented mules.
Again, adjustments to the game plan that may have helped them didn't seem to be forthcoming either. Players looked like they were confused and in times like that it is the coaching that is supposed to help sort those things out. Unfortunately, the coaching looked bewildered as well and when you are a player, if you lose faith in your leaders, well....the fish rots from the head down. Last night looked like everybody gave up early and went home mentally. And that is probably the worst indictment of all.
Bang on assessment. The problem I have with this current coaching staff is either the refusal or inability to make meaningful adjustments on the fly.
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