Eskimos 37 - Lions 26, Post-Game Stats and Comments

The Place for BC Lion Discussion. A forum for Lions fans to talk and chat about our team.
Discussion, News, Information and Speculation regarding the BC Lions and the CFL.
Prowl, Growl and Roar!

Moderator: Team Captains

maxlion
Legend
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:49 am

Edit below
Last edited by maxlion on Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
maxlion
Legend
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:49 am

WestCoastJoe wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:53 pm
maxlion wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:45 pm
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:16 pm

Someone in the organization likes the profile of our International Defensive Ends.
...

Must be coachable. Must sit in the front row at meetings. Must do well on tests. Agreeable guys. Nod when the coach is speaking. Say the right things. Maybe lacking in talent, but good guys.
Just out of curiosity, what do you base this on? Assumption or inside knowledge or published reports?

Khalif Mitchell was an idiot. Good riddance.
Offence taken, max?

The first quote ... Yes. Someone in the organization does like our Int DEs. That is why they are here.

The second quote ... Perhaps I should have labelled it as humour or sarcasm. But it does seem to me our collection of Int DEs lack effectiveness. Do I have inside information? No. None. I have no inside information. The comment was sarcasm on my part. (Do you have inside information?)

We all saw the emotional/attitude/maturity issues that plagued Khalif Mitchell. He had two stints with our team. You call him an idiot? He had issues. Wally tried to work with him.

I regret the sarcasm a little bit. I thought it was pretty mild. In retrospect it was sure to offend some, including those who are disinclined to criticize our coaching staff.

Our hopes are dashed a bit. Fans are upset. Coaches, like anybody else, do not like criticism. But it seems to me that it goes with the the territory of the chosen profession.
No offense taken, and thanks for the clarification. It is true that I am less inclined to target Wally. After all, our record under him is excellent. But I am not offended by any criticism of him. Nor by any insinuations that I might be.

The problem with criticizing Wally is that he just keeps winning. I suspect that when he is gone, some on this site are in for a rude awakening.

But if course he is not purrfect and does deserve some criticism. Backed by reason or facts...or not.
Blitz
Team Captain
Posts: 9094
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:44 am

maxlion wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:47 pm
Interesting post Blitz.

Going back to 2011...

In 2011, we led the league with the fewest sacks against.
In 2012, we were tied for fewest.
In 2013, we were tied for 3rd fewest.
In 2014, we were 6th.
In 2015, we were 3rd.
In 2016, we were 4th.

Overall, slightly above average in number of sacks against over the past 6 seasons. I didn't bother going back further. Perhaps your claims would have been born out if I had.

Now looking at QB injuries.
Levi-Mitchell has been mostly injury free.
Reilly has suffered several significant injuries.
Durant missed most of 2 years with injuries.
Nichols has been mostly injury-free in his short career, but his predecessor Willy was often injured.
Ray has been frequently injured over the past few years.
Harris was injured for part of last year.
Collaros has suffered several major injuries.
Glenn has been mostly injury free, including during his time in BC, but he doesn't take risks to win.

I'm probably missing some guys. Bottom line is that QBs around the league get injured frequently.

I enjoy the debate and variety of opinions on here. But there should some regard for facts as well.
I find your last comment insulting maxlion. I also find your comment to me " ...'perhaps' your claims would have been born out if I had gone back further" insulting too" - a bit too condescending towards a fellow Lionbacker to make me happy. Are you insinuating "perhaps" they wouldn't be borne out?

My statement was clear. Its a fact that our Lions, under Dan Dorazio, during the long period of time during his first stint as our offensive coordinator, our Leos gave up the most sacks in the CFL during that time period. Not 'perhaps'.

I have posted those stats in detail previously so I don't feel the need to do it again just to prove it to you but you can look them up yourself of find my previous post on the subject.

Dan Dorazio returned last year. He wasn't even here in 2015. Last year we were 4th in sacks. This year we are tied for last place with 17. Calgary has given up 4 sacks so far this season while also losing Derrick Dennis.

You wrote in a post in this thread that Wally keeps on winning. Prove it.

I can distort stats just as you did above.

The 2008, our Lions finished the season in third place in the West Division .

In 2009 The Lions finished the season in fourth place in the West Division with an 8–10 record after losing their last three regular season games.

The 2010, our Leos finished the season in third place in the West Division with a second consecutive 8–10 record.

in 2011, Wally's last season in his first stint as our Leos HC, finished first in the West and won the Grey Cup

In 2016 our B.C. Lions finished second in the West before being blown out in the WDF by Calgary.

Presently, we have won 4 games and lost two, both to our only Western opponent so far this season- the Edmonton Eskimos.

If you want to interpret Wally "keeping on winning", as Wally's cheerleader, fill your boots. Wally's Leos have finished third, fourth, third, first, and second in his five previous seasons as our Head Coach, with one Grey Cup appearance - a win over the Bombers. I didn't bother to go back further, just as you didn't bother to go back further with your sack stats.

I'm happy that Buono is back as our HC. However, I don't think he walks on water.

This site is an opinion site. WCJ has made a significant contribution to this site. He, nor I, and hopefully other Lionbackers don't need to go throught the 'prove it' game for you, when you don't like something that is posted.

If you want to be a Wally cheerleader and fan, that is your right and please continue to share your thoughts and opinions of why you think and feel the way you do. But there is no need for acrimony while doing so.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9789
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

Travis Lulay said pre-game they had to avoid 2nd and long situations or they could be in trouble.

Lions opening plays IIRC had them where he said they didn't want to be. Similar half time comments. I thought the offensive opening versus Edmonton's set the wrong tone for the Lion's offense.

It's not lack of talent.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
maxlion
Legend
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:49 am

Blitz,
I was questioning the selection of facts you used to support your argument. No need to take it personally.

It is misleading to use facts from a long time time ago to support a claim about a current circumstance when more recent and relevant stats are readily available that would contradict your claim.

It is true that in Wally and Dorazio's early years here, sacks were a problem. Not so much in recent years.

We do need to do a better job of protecting the QB. Coaching can't guarantee that a qb will remain healthy, but it does play a role. Playing rookie olinemen also plays a role. But as Lumbala's missed block in the first sack shows, even respected vets screw up sometimes. QBs are also frequently at fault for increased sacks, as evidenced by the number of sacks one typically sees against rookie qbs. Why deny this as a factor?

As far as "Wally still winning", his record over the last 2 years is 16-9. His career winning percentage is very high. If we were to miss the playoffs for a couple of years, or have a series of losing seasons, that would be a different story. As it is, he is still winning.
Blitz
Team Captain
Posts: 9094
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:44 am

There is an appearance that you were attempting to embarrass WCJ. When he wouldn't be drawn into a conflict with you, you then chose to post again using words in an attempt to undermine me.

I take that type of approach personally because it was meant to be personal (or at least personal in terms of an Internet site)

You could have used different language in your first post. You could have posted that our quarterback sacks in recent seasons under Dorazio had improved and then posted the stats to demonstrate your point, without trying to create acrimony with 'prove it' comments or 'perhaps' comments which was an attempt to say 'maybe I am telling the truth' and 'maybe I'm not'.

Having a different viewpoint than mine is more than ok....different viewpoints make this site interesting. It would be dull if we all saw the world or the football world the same way. But questioning a poster's integrity is a different matter.

Whenever I post on Lionbackers, in terms of my colleague Lionbackers, I always try to take an approach that whatever I write is something I would be saying to their face. Anonymity sometimes creates too much licence for some people when interacting with each other on social media. It did on this site for a period of time.

WCJ, more than any other team captain, has been dedicated in the goal of making Lionbackers an excellent football website. A key to his contribution of making it so have been his efforts that posters be considerate of each other and have an approach of being 'colleague' Lionbackers, even if sometimes we see things differently.

In other words, we can disagree without having a 'conflict driven' approach or we can post and have a different point of view while taking a respectful approach with other posters and consider the feelings of our colleague Lionbackers when we do disagree.

Whether you were attempting to pick a fight or not, I didn't see your approach as positive or healthy. 'Perhaps' you don't care or 'perhaps' you are driven by other motivations.

No, its not misleading to look at the body of work of Dan Dorazio as our offensive line coach, since the time he has been here, since during his first stint, we gave up the most sacks in the CFL and in the second season of his second stint, we are leading the CFL in giving up quarterback sacks.

And once again, you use language that tries to create a sense that I am 'misleading' this website - your words. I made it quite clear what my stats were based upon and I was not attempting to mislead... and I take offence to you framing my comment as 'misleading'. Once again, you can't seem to make a point without attempting to bring a fellow poster down.

Your approach says more about you than me or WCJ for that matter. I'll end my comments on this subject here. You can continue on and have the last words on the subject.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
maxlion
Legend
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:49 am

Blitz,
You are mischaracterizing the intent and nature of my posts. Calling certain facts "misleading" does not imply dishonesty. It is not a personal attack. It is you and WCJ who are using personal attacks and insinuations to call into question my integrity. Let's let it go. I have better things to do than engage with internet bullies.
User avatar
The_Pauser
Legend
Posts: 2494
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:36 pm

WestCoastJoe wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:53 pm

Our hopes are dashed a bit. Fans are upset. Coaches, like anybody else, do not like criticism. But it seems to me that it goes with the the territory of the chosen profession.
I agree with this. And after reading the last couple pages it seems that this extends to more than just the coaches.

For the record, I think both sides have merits.
Roar you Lions roar!
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

It looks like sensitivities are up after a couple of discouraging losses to the Eskimos.

I tend to criticize the coaching staff at times. I give some praise to the coaching staff at times. I recognize how hard they work.

I teasingly suggested that our staff chooses their Defensive Ends by how well they behave in meetings, etc., rather than by how effective they are on the playing field. I thought that was mild.

I fully support our fellow blogger, Blitz, in his comments. He brings vast knowledge and insight (and, yes, readership) to this site. He is very polite to other bloggers, not seeking disagreements, etc. He comments on the coaching staff, systems, strategies, techniques, etc. He criticizes where he sees fit. All good. All fair game. (And thank you, Blitz, for your personally supportive comments.)

maxlion brings thoughtful comments, and tends to be very supportive of Wally. All good.

If a coach gets criticized, I think we can expect others to defend that coach. I certainly sense that from some bloggers. And Wally is at the top of the totem pole, the face of the franchise, the Head Coach, the General Manager, and the Vice-President of Football Operations. He tends to be the focus of criticism and praise.

maxlion asked me a question in the above post. It puzzled me a bit: how could my attempt at humour be based on inside knowledge? I responded to max, politely, I think. My sarcasm or irony re the coaching staff was not based on any inside knowledge. It was just an attempt at humour. It was certainly not based on any published reports. There was no fly on the wall observing how the staff conducts meetings, or on how they select their players. It was not even an assumption. It was an attempt at sarcasm or irony. Was it cruel? I didn't think so. But I did say that in retrospect I regretted it a bit.

I think after a couple of tough losses to the Eskimos, our hopes being dashed a bit, our sensitivities are up.

IMO the overall tone of this site is very good. Carry on. Try not to step on each others' toes.

And, of course, as this is a football blogging website, there will continue to be criticism of coaches, along with praise of coaches.

Just IMO ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
The_Pauser
Legend
Posts: 2494
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 12:36 pm

Let's just hope we get back on track this week, and next week. If we're going to host a home playoff game this year we have to sweep the Riders in this mini 2-game series.
Roar you Lions roar!
User avatar
BC 1988
Legend
Posts: 1357
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:58 pm
Location: BC (since 1988)

It was interesting that Dorazio decided to appear on the 1040 morning show (since all week hosts have been trashing the play of the o-line). Sounds like Vaillancourt part 2 is coming.
http://www.tsn.ca/radio/audio/dorazio-v ... r-1.821409
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

BC 1988 wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:56 pm
It was interesting that Dorazio decided to appear on the 1040 morning show (since all week hosts have been trashing the play of the o-line). Sounds like Vaillancourt part 2 is coming.
http://www.tsn.ca/radio/audio/dorazio-v ... r-1.821409
Full credit to Dan Dorazio for doing an interview when things are not at their best. Nobody works harder or longer.

Many spots requiring sensitive answers. The absence of Olafioye. The play of Foucault. Whether Vaillancourt steps in. Pass protection. Dan did OK. Not exactly a rah rah speech, but emphasizing the positive.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
User avatar
DanoT
Hall of Famer
Posts: 4309
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 6:38 pm
Location: Victoria, B.C. in summer, Sun Peaks Resort in winter

I liked Dorazio's response when he was asked about Jennings progress at practice. I am paraphrasing but basically he said "I don't know" (about Jennings progress) "I don't watch that stuff". As for Chris William's progress: "I look up and some fast guy go whizzing by...that must be Williams". lol.
User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

DanoT wrote:
Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:14 pm
I liked Dorazio's response when he was asked about Jennings progress at practice. I am paraphrasing but basically he said "I don't know" (about Jennings progress) "I don't watch that stuff". As for Chris William's progress: "I look up and some fast guy go whizzing by...that must be Williams". lol.
Yes, Dan Dorazio is kind of a larger than life character, all those years of coaching, all the anecdotes. The way he described seeing the blur of Chris Williams was funny. Same with the comment re Jennings. Dan D's focus is the O Line.
................

Some further thoughts on the interview and pro sports coaching ...

Dan was asked: "What runs through your mind when people are critical?"

Dan answered: "That's fine. They've got every right to be critical. That's fine. I've got no problem with that. Not my concern."

Bravely spoken, Dan. Pro football coaches are oftentimes under the Klieg lights of scrutiny and criticism. Even when a team wins, some fans will not be happy with some aspects of the team.

I recall reading about the Philadelphia Eagles in the 1960s. Fans rejoiced in ripping the team. At games they even threw hard snowballs at Santa Claus on the sideline.

People on this site know and realize how hard our coaches work. But as I have said, the spotlight and criticism go with the territory of pro sports coaching. And that will not ever change.

In the 1970s I worked with an assistant manager in retail who's excitement and satisfaction came from standing where he could scream with red face at then-Canuck Dale Tallon, when the player walked down the concourse to the dressing room between periods or at game end. He laughed when he told about it in the coffee room.

Fanatics -> Fans. Get a life, some might say. Well for some people, following sports is a top priority in their lives.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
Post Reply