Jovan leaves the Den. Confirmation on Page 8.

The Place for BC Lion Discussion. A forum for Lions fans to talk and chat about our team.
Discussion, News, Information and Speculation regarding the BC Lions and the CFL.
Prowl, Growl and Roar!

Moderator: Team Captains

Post Reply
User avatar
CardiacKid
Legend
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:46 am
Location: Under Christmas Hill, Saanich

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

Trading Jovan for the rights to Foucault (not the actual warm body) seems an awfully steep price to pay. The potential upside to having another National on the O-Line is great but the Als had better sweeten the pot. Throw in Jacob Ruby for starters (young blood) and perhaps Knapton for the d-line.

But straight-up, Jovan for rights to Foucault? Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so.
User avatar
Hambone
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8175
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: Living in PG when not at BC Place, Grey Cup or Mazatlan.

Qman wrote:Has wally ever given any of the Canadians that come back from NFL to be CFL rookies full starter status playing time right away?
don't they usually understudy for a year and prove to him they can be starters.

If that is the case ,won't steward move out to T until Foucault proves is drastically better option than steward
Foucault spent two full seasons and a 3rd training camp with Carolina. He played in 5 games as a rookie starting 1. As best as I can recall Buono has never had a NAT come back from the NFL with anything close to that amount of time spent south of the border as Foucault did. Kirby Fabien went to a NY Giants rookie camp, didn't get an offer and signed with BC. He started 5 games as a rookie with BC in 2013 before blowing his knee and being lost for the season. Lokombo was a late signing having failed to get a look down south. McKay-Loescher spent a training camp with Indy then joined BC in September of his CFL draft year. Most others were back after an NFL rookie mini-camp looksee. What I see Foucault doing is giving that critical extra quality prospect that allows them to make the change to 4 NAT OL. I think 4 NAT OL is a non-starter with the current roster due to lack of depth behind Steward, Vaillancourt, Husband and Fabien.
You're as old as you've ever been and as young as you're ever going to be.
User avatar
Hambone
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8175
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: Living in PG when not at BC Place, Grey Cup or Mazatlan.

CardiacKid wrote:A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

Trading Jovan for the rights to Foucault (not the actual warm body) seems an awfully steep price to pay. The potential upside to having another National on the O-Line is great but the Als had better sweeten the pot. Throw in Jacob Ruby for starters (young blood) and perhaps Knapton for the d-line.

But straight-up, Jovan for rights to Foucault? Say it ain't so Joe, say it ain't so.
Supposedly Montreal has been allowed to talk to Olafioye to see if they can rework his contract. Perhaps Montreal has reciprocated and allowed BC to talk to Foucault to see if they can agree on terms?
You're as old as you've ever been and as young as you're ever going to be.
TheLionKing
Hall of Famer
Posts: 25103
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: Vancouver

If the Lions can secure the services of a starting Canadian offensive lineman for an import lineman it's a good deal.
User avatar
David
Team Captain
Posts: 9364
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 10:23 am
Location: Vancouver (Kitsilano)

TheLionKing wrote:If the Lions can secure the services of a starting Canadian offensive lineman for an import lineman it's a good deal.
Only if Foucault turns into the next Josh Bourke, then yea. But Wally is really rolling the dice here by jettisoning a proven All-Star who has a home in Pt. Roberts and loves being a Lion for a Francophone who hasn't played a down in the CFL and is only 14 months younger than Jovan.....and may end up venturing back down south in a year or two or return home to play for his hometown Als.

And if it's Jacob Ruby? No thanks. I know he was a rookie, but every time I watched the Als play last year he was getting torched.


DH :cool:
Roar, You Lions, Roar
Blitz
Team Captain
Posts: 9094
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:44 am

Thanks for posting Grid Iron Ernie.

cfl.ca has an article titled:
Report: Als close to Landing Six-time All-Star Olafioye
Farhan also confirms:
Farhan Lalji‏

#BCLions are confident they'll be able to get Foucault signed. Deal pending #Als approval of Olafioye's med records.
Interesting stuff to say the least. One can understand trading an International for a National offensive lineman, as long as Focault will be able to come here and either start at left tackle, with Steward remaining at left guard or other scenarios in which Facault is a starter. Both Facault and Steward are left tackles so one will have to play another position. I hope Wally isn't wanting Facualt just as a backup.

Another notion would be to start Focault at right tackle and go with five Nationals on the offensive line.

A scenario could be to go with Focault at left tackle and try to get Steward to make the switch to right tackle. Or perhaps we could start Facault at left tackle, Steward at left guard, and attempt to convert Vaillencourt to right tackle but that is the least likely scenario as Vaillencourt is more suited as a power guard and likely is not quick enough for the right tackle postion.

Finally, we could also play Steward at left tackle and Focault at left guard but I don't see that happening.

Certainly, if we could pick up a left tackle backup at the CFL draft, we could go with 5 National linemen. What I hope, is that we are not trading a 6 time CFL All-Star just to shed some salary and use Facault as a depth tackle who doesn't start.

What surprises me though is that Montreal could not afford to sign Focault and yet would be paying an International in Olifioye more money. The second question I have is how much money we would actually save by having Facault come to B.C and trade Jovan to Montreal. I can't see Facault coming here cheap, in terms of contract.

Foucault was selected fifth overall by the Montreal Alouettes in the 2014 CFL draft. However, Facault attended the Panthers' camp and he made the final 53-man roster. However Facault was released by the Panthers at the end of training camp in 2015, signed to the practice roster, and called up from the practice roster, cut again and signed to the practice roster. In 2016 Facault was waived by Carolina and didn't play football last season after being waived.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
Blitz
Team Captain
Posts: 9094
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:44 am

The more I think about this the more I believe moving Olafioye is first and foremost motivated by a desire to change the OL ratio. Savings on the SMS may come out of it but I think that is secondary to what the trade might do for the ratio and the ripple effect in other parts of the depth chart. The potential of Foucault coming the other way would secure the ability of BC to have 4 starting NATs on the OL. That in turn allows for 4 starting INTs at receiver.

Hambone
Wally didn't need to trade Olifioye to play four Nationals this season. He could have moved Steward to his natural left tackle spot, played Fabian at left guard, Husband at center, Vaillencourt at right guard, and started Olifioye at right tackle, where he was an All-Star every season.

Then we could have drafted a backup National tackle at this year's draft.

I agree with David that trading Olifioye for the rights to Facault is not enough. Unless we start five Nationals I seriously question this trade. We should be getting a draft choice or another player, as well as Facault. Yes, Facault stuck around with Carolina for a season but Carolina was very weak on the offensive line, which is why Facault chose them rather than other NFL teams who showed interest in him.

Olifioye was more than a proven commodity - Best CFL Lineman Award, 6 Time CFL All-Star, very healthy (and no injuries - very important), and a die hard Leo who is still relatively young, experienced, and an offensive lineman who has been able to make the swtich from right side to left side of the offensive line (very difficult) and be a CFL All-Star in his first season of doing so.

This is not a minor decision. Its huge. How many Leos in our history have been a six time CFL All-Star, let alone do it in their first six seasons? Its a very small sprinkling - Al Wilson (7 times in 15 seasons), Geroy Simon (6 times from 1999-2013), Lui Passaglia (4 times in 25 seasons), etc.

Jovan Olifioye is among the B.C. Lions greats of all-time so we are not just trading a successful International offensive lineman to Montreal. We are trading one of our best Leos ever and he is still young, healthy, and coming off another very successful season. There are many ways to get four Nationals on an offensive line, without trading one of our best offensive linemen ever...so yes..trading an International lineman for a National one makes sense but trading such a tremendous proven talent rather than attempting a different trade or drafting one (we draft 3rd this season, as well as eighth) better work out.

An interesting question is why does Montreal not want to go with Facault, a National, as their starting left tackle? They only offered him $80,000, saying they are up against the SMS but they are willing to pay Olifioye much more and play an International, as well as change their ratio. Montreal could have signed Facault for much less money and they would have had another first round draft choice in Ruby backing Facault up.

Montreal fans seem to be excited about the possibility of getting Olifioye. Montreal fans are not enamored with Facault coming back because they see him "as only having eyes for the NFL" and question his commitment to a CFL career.

How committed will Facault be to our Leos? Olifioye was going to be here for the long run. His loyalty was more than proven, with 3 contract extensions and living in the lower Mainland. He wanted to be a Leo long term - his three contract extensions more than proved that.

Facault may want to become a free agent when his contract runs out or he may want a shorter type contract to give the NFL another shot. He is unproven as a CFL offensive lineman, has been out for a season, and his loyalty is also unproven. He also hasn't played enough as a pro to know whether he will also be able to stand up and play healthy for 18 games and playoffs -something we know Olifioye could do, season after season.

With the trade of Olifioye looking like close to a done deal and Facault signing here, it makes more sense to me, that we play 5 Nationals on the offensive line.



Option 1 - 5 Nationals

Left Tackle: Steward
Left Guard: Fabian
Center: Husband
Right Guard: Vaillencourt
Right Tackle: Facault

Draft: Offensive Tackle:

Option 2 - 5 Nationals

Left Tackle: Facault
Left Guard; Fabian
Center: Husband
Right Guard: Vaillencourt
Right Tackle: Steward

Draft: Offensive Tackle

What makes less sense to me are starting four Nationals and an International.

Scenario 1

Left Tackle: Steward Backup: Left Guard: Fabian
Center: Husband
Right Guard: Vaillencourt
Right Tackle: Johnson

Backup: Facault

Scenario 2

Left Tackle: Facault
Left Guard: Steward
Center: Husband
Right Guard: Fabian Backup: Vaillencourt (or vice-versa)
Right Tackle: Johnson

Vaillencourt is ready to be a starter. He started the first two games for us. Fabian. Vaillencourt is a high first round draft choice. He is huge for a guard and he is aggressive. Some had hin going first in the 2016 draft. Fabian has proven that he is a starter as well.

Trading a 6 time CFL All-star to have either Steward, Fabian, or Vaillencourt as a depth lineman doesn't make sense to me. If Facault is good enough to start, then we have 5 Nationals who are starters and we should deploy our offensive line in that way.

We also have two first round draft choices and there are some very good offensive tackles in that first round that we can draft as a backup offensive tackle, should Steward or Facault get hurt.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
Dusty
Champion
Posts: 555
Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 8:31 pm

Assuming that a trade happens, I think there will be a huge learning curve for an inexperienced left tackle, especially one coming from the NFL, given the prevalence of full scale blitz packages that are used/shown in the CFL. When the huddle breaks and it looks like you've got 12 defenders spread across the line in front of you, experience (or at least quick learning) counts. JJ may be using his feet a lot more without Jovan as opposing DC's will look to exploit the outside of the line with DB blitzes and/or find some gaps up the middle by faking the outside blitz and getting the tackles/guard to move sideways....
Qman
Champion
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 12:59 pm
Location: Section 240

Dusty wrote:Assuming that a trade happens, I think there will be a huge learning curve for an inexperienced left tackle, especially one coming from the NFL, given the prevalence of full scale blitz packages that are used/shown in the CFL. When the huddle breaks and it looks like you've got 12 defenders spread across the line in front of you, experience (or at least quick learning) counts. JJ may be using his feet a lot more without Jovan as opposing DC's will look to exploit the outside of the line with DB blitzes and/or find some gaps up the middle by faking the outside blitz and getting the tackles/guard to move sideways....
yes, don't see David starting right away unless he blows wally away in camp. most likely hunter moves outside and the work david in. LT isn't a position you can accept a learning curve. MTL was only offering him 80k, which means they weren't blown away with him starting right away. its like we are getting a bonus 1st round pick. i think we are getting another player (starter) for JO as well.
Blitz
Team Captain
Posts: 9094
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:44 am

Qman wrote:
Dusty wrote:Assuming that a trade happens, I think there will be a huge learning curve for an inexperienced left tackle, especially one coming from the NFL, given the prevalence of full scale blitz packages that are used/shown in the CFL. When the huddle breaks and it looks like you've got 12 defenders spread across the line in front of you, experience (or at least quick learning) counts. JJ may be using his feet a lot more without Jovan as opposing DC's will look to exploit the outside of the line with DB blitzes and/or find some gaps up the middle by faking the outside blitz and getting the tackles/guard to move sideways....
yes, don't see David starting right away unless he blows wally away in camp. most likely hunter moves outside and the work david in. LT isn't a position you can accept a learning curve. MTL was only offering him 80k, which means they weren't blown away with him starting right away. its like we are getting a bonus 1st round pick. i think we are getting another player (starter) for JO as well.
We likely are getting another player for Jovan as well.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around this one. First of all, we didn't need to trade Jovan to start four Nationals. We could have moved Steward out to left tackle, inserted Vaillencourt at guard, and moved Olifioye back to right tackle.

Secondly, Wally didn't begin by wanting to trade Olifioye. Instead, he wanted Olifioye to take a pay cut, which he refused, unless Wally was willing to give something from the back end of a restructured contract...and he wasn't.

The signing of Chris Williams was expensive as was the signing of Swayze Waters. However, we also lost Adam Bighill, who was well paid. But we also had to pay out a lot more money to sign Burhham, as well as we had to sign other Leo free agents plus we also signed some new free agents from other teams. These signings were more expensive than the SMS cap we gained from the loss of Bighill, Lokombo, Leone, Bazzie, and Gaitor.

I see Chris Williams as a bit of a gamble due to his ACL injury. Williams signed with the Tiger Cats in 2010. In 2012, the 5'7", 170 pound Williams set a new CFL record for return touchdowns in a single season. Williams finished the season with 16 touchdowns, 1,298 receiving yards and 1,117 punt return yards.

After an outstanding season Williams did not want to return to the Tiger-Cats under his current contract and said the Tiger-Cats violated a provision within the collective bargaining agreement that could lead to the final year of his contract with the Tiger-Cats being voided.

After failing to show up for mandatory training camp at the start of June 2013 the Tiger-Cats placed him under suspension. An independent arbitrator ruled that Williams' contract with the Tiger-Cats was legal and binding. The Ontario Superior Court of Justice over-ruled the decision of the independent arbitrator, declaring Williams was not bound to any contractual obligations with the Tiger-Cats, making him a free agent in the view of the CFL Players Association.

Williams kicked around with the NFL New Orleans Saints and the Chicago Bears until 2015, when he was signed by Ottawa on a one year deal. Williams finished the 2015 season with 1,214 yards on 88 receptions with 5 touchdowns Williams and the Redblacks agreed to a contract extension for one year for 2016. Partway through their Week 16 match-up against the Roughriders Williams was forced to leave the game early with a knee injury. Williams was enjoying another very productive 2016 season with 1,246 yards on 77 receptions when he tore his ACL in game 15.

Williams was not used much on special teams for Ottawa in his two seasons there. Williams was unable to break one" for the RedBlacks in the 2015 season and was eventually replaced in the role of returner by Jamil Smith and was sparingly used as a returner for Ottawa in 2016.

Dejardins chose not to sign Williams prior to free agency this past season. Ottawa elected to go after Kenny Shaw and Diontae Spencer from the Toronto Argonauts, players who are younger, cheaper, and potentially less problematic. The biggest question mark is whether Williams will be the same player he was before. He had games of 176, 187 and 130 receiving yards in his first three starts with Ottawa in 2016, but only two 100-yard games from Week 4 to Week 16, when he suffered his catastrophic knee injury.

Willams had surgery on his knee on October 28th, 2016. The recovery, as it was in the case of Hamilton Tiger-Cats quarterback Zach Collaros, can be long and arduous, depending on the individual. For example, it took 11 months after his injury for Collaros to finally made his return. So its hard to know how long it will take for Williams to recover but its not out of the realm of possibility that we will not have Williams for a good chunk of this season.

There is a sense that some Leo fans are expecting Williams to be lining up at receiver for the season opener. That is possible but unlikely.

Swayze Waters really cost us a lot of money. Had Hamilton not also been interested Waters would have cost us a lot less. But with Leone's field goal kicking a serious problem for two seasons and then going to the NFL, Wally was put in the embarrassing position of having to get McAvoy to phone McCallum towards the end of last season after Buono had tried to get McCallum to 'retire' during our 2015 training camp and bad feelings from McCallum had been the final chapter of his long, very successful career here in B.C.

Wally, after two experiments in trying to convert a punter into a field goal kicker (O'Mohoney and Leone) without success and feeling the need to have success at both punting and field goal kicking for this season, with a very good team for 2017, paid big bucks for Waters.

Winnipeg is the only other CFL team using an International for punt/kicking duties. Its was not a good situation to be in for 2017. So the two biggest reasons why Wally asked Olifioye for a pay cut was the signing of Williams and Waters.

I hope is that trading for Facault (and whomever comes with him) and saying goodbye to Olifioye turns out to be a good one. If Facult turns into a starter then it will be. But if Williams does not recover well and Facault does not become starter material or play here for long, then Wally has focused on short term success for longer term loss because Olifioye has a number of future CFL All-Star seasons left in him.

Wally is not going to be here with our Leos as GM long term. He is focused on NOW. Leos fans want to win now too but most will be cheering for our Leos when Wally is no longer HC/GM. I am looking at the Olifioye trade long term as well as short term.

I sure hope it works out for our Leos both in the short term and the longer term because we are sure trading an outstanding player.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
User avatar
Hambone
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8175
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: Living in PG when not at BC Place, Grey Cup or Mazatlan.

Blitz wrote:Foucault was selected fifth overall by the Montreal Alouettes in the 2014 CFL draft. However, Facault attended the Panthers' camp and he made the final 53-man roster. However Facault was released by the Panthers at the end of training camp in 2015, signed to the practice roster, and called up from the practice roster, cut again and signed to the practice roster. In 2016 Facault was waived by Carolina and didn't play football last season after being waived.
Most of those "cut" moves were paperwork moves. To demote a player from active roster to PR takes two transactions. First they have to be released from their contract then signed to a PR contract. Foucault is somewhat similar to Boyko in terms of their final draft selection. Both went into their respective CFL drafts as the #2 ranked prospect and wound up sliding down the board due to NFL interests. In both cases the only players ranked ahead of them were drafted by NFL teams and remain in the NFL.
You're as old as you've ever been and as young as you're ever going to be.
User avatar
Toppy Vann
Hall of Famer
Posts: 9789
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:56 pm

Maybe Mtl know or have strong reasons to believe that this guy has little to no desire to be in the CFL.
"Ability without character will lose." - Marv Levy
Qman
Champion
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 12:59 pm
Location: Section 240

Toppy Vann wrote:Maybe Mtl know or have strong reasons to believe that this guy has little to no desire to be in the CFL.
he's coming back, that the whole point here. MTL didn't think he was worth more than 80k. He didn't like that. His agent has circles the wagons but really have no leverage as a draft pick. I think it was Paris Jackson or Shawn gore was in same situation and wanted big $ and starting spot right away, and wally laughed and said here is backup money you have to earn you spot. Both those guys eventually became starters and productive.

Riders have a competing trade offer for Foucault as well.


FYI Boyko will be in same situation next offseason if he gets cut from San Diego (hits 3 permisiable seasons on PR)
User avatar
CardiacKid
Legend
Posts: 1949
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 9:46 am
Location: Under Christmas Hill, Saanich

Qman wrote:
Riders have a competing trade offer for Foucault as well.
That's very intriguing; the team that can spend like a drunken sailor vs. Wally and his propensity for managing the filthy lucre like a Calvinist minister. All joking aside, who wants it more? The team with atrocious National depth and knows it or the team that has pretty much publicly deemed a perpetual All-Star as expendable and surplus?

The presence of the Riders in this just might mean Jovan stays put.
Qman
Champion
Posts: 932
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 12:59 pm
Location: Section 240

CardiacKid wrote:
Qman wrote:
Riders have a competing trade offer for Foucault as well.
That's very intriguing; the team that can spend like a drunken sailor vs. Wally and his propensity for managing the filthy lucre like a Calvinist minister. All joking aside, who wants it more? The team with atrocious National depth and knows it or the team that has pretty much publicly deemed a perpetual All-Star as expendable and surplus?

The presence of the Riders in this just might mean Jovan stays put.

issue with riders is they have nothing to offer in a trade, while we do

CFL News‏ @CFL_News Mar 23
Two main bidders for David Foucalt are #BCLions & the #Riders according to @JdeMontreal. #CFL #AlsMTL



Dhaliwal seems to think JO is good as gone. There are couple interested teams lined up behind montreal if the deal falls through

Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports Mar 23
Hearing if Olafioye can't agree to terms with Alleouttes, there are 1-2 other teams interested in trading for him. #BCLions
Post Reply