Final wrap on free agency: Offence and Defence

The Place for BC Lion Discussion. A forum for Lions fans to talk and chat about our team.
Discussion, News, Information and Speculation regarding the BC Lions and the CFL.
Prowl, Growl and Roar!

Moderator: Team Captains

User avatar
WestCoastJoe
Hall of Famer
Posts: 17721
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 8:55 pm

Excellent breakdown, Blitz.

Once again we saw Mark W talk about aggressive, attacking defence, but we did not see it to any degree. One still wonders if Mark W is giving Wally just what Wally wants. Soft zone. Play back, Guys. Take away the deep pass. LOL Get back, Biggie. Farther. Tough to change one's philosophy, after so many years of success as a coach. And for Mark W, best to keep the boss happy.

Loads of talent on the team.

Offence -- JJ and Travis seem happy to work with Khari. Loads of weapons, all orchestrated by the brilliant young Jonathon Jennings.

More detailed game planning would be suitable, on both O and D, if we really want to compete for all the marbles. Detailed for each team, not just rolled out vanilla, game after game.

Defence -- Turnovers, or lack of turnovers, is a problem. Soft zone creates easily identified gaps and puts us in chase/reaction position. It gives all the advantage to well prepared offences. Pressure on the QB is essential. Not sure we have the right mix on the D Line. Some diversified coverages would be beneficial. Gotta say, this fan expects us to go with much of the same as we have seen for years under Mark W, that is, soft zone.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
TheLionKing
Hall of Famer
Posts: 25103
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 10:13 pm
Location: Vancouver

Tired of hearing Washington promising an aggressive attacking defence. He's been uttering the same line since he got here. Time to deliver or shut up.
Lionsfan65
Starter
Posts: 135
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:12 am

As Washington enters his 4th season as defensive coordinator, I must say he has had mixed success so far. The Lions have been pretty good in most defensive categories during his tenure. He does deserve credit for that. I think our defensive line will be ok this year. I think Brooks played injured for most of 2016. If he can get back to his 2015 numbers with 40+ tackles I think that would be a huge success. The big question mark once again is a solid pass rusher who can get 10+ sacks. The lions have signed some young prospects, such as David Perkins, while this years draft appears to be fairly deep for d line as well.
Another major area that needs improvement is the defensive backfield. Having a healthy Yell, Lee, and Clarke I think will make a huge difference, as all three have great skills, and imo are some of the underrated defensive backs in the league.

On another note I know it is a little late in the offseason to make a major coaching change, however I would assume Rich Stubler is available considering the Argos are going with Chamblin as the DC this year. I wonder if he would be willing to take on a positional coach role, or a consulting role.
Blitz
Team Captain
Posts: 9094
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:44 am

Lionsfan65 wrote:As Washington enters his 4th season as defensive coordinator, I must say he has had mixed success so far. The Lions have been pretty good in most defensive categories during his tenure. He does deserve credit for that. I think our defensive line will be ok this year. I think Brooks played injured for most of 2016. If he can get back to his 2015 numbers with 40+ tackles I think that would be a huge success. The big question mark once again is a solid pass rusher who can get 10+ sacks. The lions have signed some young prospects, such as David Perkins, while this years draft appears to be fairly deep for d line as well.
Another major area that needs improvement is the defensive backfield. Having a healthy Yell, Lee, and Clarke I think will make a huge difference, as all three have great skills, and imo are some of the underrated defensive backs in the league.

On another note I know it is a little late in the offseason to make a major coaching change, however I would assume Rich Stubler is available considering the Argos are going with Chamblin as the DC this year. I wonder if he would be willing to take on a positional coach role, or a consulting role.
Wally would never hire Stubler as a consultant. Wally wanted Stubler out of here so he could promote Mask Washington and have a coordinator who would do it the "Wally Way" It was never comfortable for Wally to have experienced defensive coaches who have their own minds, like Ritchie and Stubler on our Leos staff, even though our defence had its best seasons under those two wise owls.

This is the time of the year when we focus on free agents, signings, the draft, etc. Its the time of year when we focus on team improvement through player personell. There usually isn't much focus on coaching at this time of the season.

Wally certainly seems to be much more motivated and effective as a GM when he is also the HC. Whether it was bringing in Arland Bruce partway throught the 2011 season or his free agent signings over the past two seasons, Wally has opened the wallet and made some key signings which didb't seem to happen to the same extend when he was not down on the sidlelines.

However, no matter how good our personell is for 2017, we will be handicapped if we don't deal with the following:

1. Our Leos team is badly outscouted and out game planned by good teams with good coaches. We don't fool anyone and are easy to scout. Good opposing teams game plan well against our weaknesses. In the meantime, we usually do not attempt to exploit opposing temas weaknesses. Instead we just come out and do the same thing game after game and hope to out -execute.

2. We gave up too many leads last year and that is a coaching issue. Jonathan Jennings is not some kind of rebel. Tell him to make conservative decisions in the last minutes of a football game and he will do that. Give him high percentage plays and he will run them. Trouble is that we didn't give him that direction and structure.

3. Other examples of offensive predictability are 1) running the same inside zone read play on second and short when the defense has more players in the box than we have blockers and we wonder why we get stuffed so often on second and short and 2 throwing deep and deep intermediate time and again against press man coverage with two deep safeties. No matter how good Jennnings can throw and no matter how wlll Manny and Burnham can catch, its tempting fate and not smart football. 3) Dumping quickly to Rainey in the flat time and again against press man coverage and wondering why it doesnt' work (duh).

4. Defensively, we don't focus on taking away the opposition's bread and butter plays in the first half of games and then get behind. A great example of this was when we played Winnipeg. We all knew that the Bombers love to throw to Harris in the flat and yet we left him alone to do just that, while dropping Sol E. and Biggie into hook coverage and leaving the flat wide open. This was not astute professional football coaching.

5. This Leos team has tons of speed and talent. But until we do what Billichick does so well in New England and start adapting our scheme to our talent, rather than using the same old scheme for the past 20 plus years, no matter who is at quarterback, tailback, receiver, etc. is not the way to build a dnynasty. Billichick is always ahead of the curve. Our Leos are always behind it and therefore our players not only have to beat the opposition but also overcome the handicaps of our offensive and defensive schemes. Billichick has run power offences, spread offences, two tight end offences, etc, etc during his time in New England. Wally has run the same offence since he got here (and before).

The only time our defense has veered from its passive zone scheme was when Ritchie and Stubler were here. We turned the football over a lot and gave our offence lots more opportunities. But Wally likes to play it safe. That had its advantages in the good ol' days but quarterbacks are too good these days, have passed a lot in spread offences, and can pick a simple defence apart.

We coulda and probably shoulda won four more Grey Cups, at least, since Buono arrived. The talent was here to to that. Old school thinking has helped us to be competitive but it has also handicapped us way too often as well.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
User avatar
David
Team Captain
Posts: 9364
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2002 10:23 am
Location: Vancouver (Kitsilano)

Blitz wrote:Our defense needs to play more man defense in 2017 and to play some press man. It also needs to run some combo man/zone coverages.
Perhaps the off-season signings of 6'3" 205lb Robert Brown and 6'1" 190lb Buddy Jackson signals a philosophical change from predominantly soft zone coverage to a more physical press man coverage? One can at least hope. :pray:


DH :cool:
Roar, You Lions, Roar
User avatar
Hambone
Hall of Famer
Posts: 8175
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 10:25 pm
Location: Living in PG when not at BC Place, Grey Cup or Mazatlan.

Blitz wrote:Wally would never hire Stubler as a consultant. Wally wanted Stubler out of here so he could promote Mask Washington and have a coordinator who would do it the "Wally Way" It was never comfortable for Wally to have experienced defensive coaches who have their own minds, like Ritchie and Stubler on our Leos staff, even though our defence had its best seasons under those two wise owls.
Seems a little puzzling Blitz. If Buono was uncomfortable with someone like Stubler why did he allow Benevides to bring him in as DL coach/consultant while Wally was still HC. When Buono promoted Bene to HC Bene in turn promoted Stubler to DC. If Buono was calling all the shots as many accused him of why did he allow Bene to promote Stubler if he didn't like his philosophy or experience. Personally I've gone from being a Stubler proponent to meh on him. It didn't bother me a bit when he left after 2013 as I no longer had confidence in his "bend but don't break" philosophy.
You're as old as you've ever been and as young as you're ever going to be.
User avatar
pennw
Legend
Posts: 1921
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:50 am
Location: Chilliwack

Hambone wrote:
Blitz wrote:Wally would never hire Stubler as a consultant. Wally wanted Stubler out of here so he could promote Mask Washington and have a coordinator who would do it the "Wally Way" It was never comfortable for Wally to have experienced defensive coaches who have their own minds, like Ritchie and Stubler on our Leos staff, even though our defence had its best seasons under those two wise owls.
Seems a little puzzling Blitz. If Buono was uncomfortable with someone like Stubler why did he allow Benevides to bring him in as DL coach/consultant while Wally was still HC. When Buono promoted Bene to HC Bene in turn promoted Stubler to DC. If Buono was calling all the shots as many accused him of why did he allow Bene to promote Stubler if he didn't like his philosophy or experience. Personally I've gone from being a Stubler proponent to meh on him. It didn't bother me a bit when he left after 2013 as I no longer had confidence in his "bend but don't break" philosophy.
Fully agree with Hambone on this one . Many were glad to see Stubler gone . His last game here , his soft zone /bend but don't break D was what allowed the Riders to come back and beat us in the play-offs . Some seem to forget that fact . At crunch time his D , for us was always the same , worse than MW's . Wally let him go for a Very good reason .
Blitz
Team Captain
Posts: 9094
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:44 am

Hambone wrote:
Blitz wrote:Wally would never hire Stubler as a consultant. Wally wanted Stubler out of here so he could promote Mask Washington and have a coordinator who would do it the "Wally Way" It was never comfortable for Wally to have experienced defensive coaches who have their own minds, like Ritchie and Stubler on our Leos staff, even though our defence had its best seasons under those two wise owls.
Seems a little puzzling Blitz. If Buono was uncomfortable with someone like Stubler why did he allow Benevides to bring him in as DL coach/consultant while Wally was still HC. When Buono promoted Bene to HC Bene in turn promoted Stubler to DC. If Buono was calling all the shots as many accused him of why did he allow Bene to promote Stubler if he didn't like his philosophy or experience. Personally I've gone from being a Stubler proponent to meh on him. It didn't bother me a bit when he left after 2013 as I no longer had confidence in his "bend but don't break" philosophy.
Benny wanted to bring in Stubler as hid DL coach/consultant and Wally allowed it. Benny was not an experienced defensive coordinator at the time. When Benevedes became HC, he didn't know at first whether he wanted to continue to coach the defense or hand over the reigns to a new DC. I think Benevedes would have coached the defense had Stubler not become available.

I dont' share the views of the posters who did not see Stubler as a good DC here.

In 2012, Stubler's first season as our Defensive Coordinator our Leos defense gave up the least points in the CFL as well as fewest rushing yards and fewest passing yards. The 2012 season, statistically was the best Leos defense of all time - better than the 1964 Head Hunters and better than any other Leos defence in any season.

Stubler's defense in 2013 ranked in the Top 3 in 12 statistical categories including fewest passing yards allowed. It was also 2nd against the rush.

Two impressive seasons overall by Stubler as our DC here in B.C. and when Wally did not renew Stubler's contract at the end of 2013, Hufnagel signed Stubler in seconds after Wally's decision and Stubler would go on to lead the Stamps defense to a Grey Cup vicotory. Not too shabby for a so called 'bend but don't break' defensive coordinator.

Mark Washington hasn't' come close to putting the same quality of defence on the field as Stulber did in his two seasons as our DC.

VANCOUVER — When Mike Benevides stood in the B.C. Lions’ room Friday morning at BC Place and presented a game ball to Rich Stubler, it had nothing to do with where he — and they — would like to be this time next week.

It had everything to do with where they’ve been for the past 20.

“It was based on his being the coordinator of the best B.C. defence ever,” the rookie head coach said. “And what’s written on the bottom of the ball is a thing he says often: ‘Life is good.’ He’s very much about people. That matters to me.

“He’s different from me. I have been called a detail-oriented dictator. I thought that difference in personality was good.”

Which is one of a dozen reasons Benevides leaped at the chance to get Stubler back as his defensive coordinator after the 63-year-old travelling man spent the 2011 season in Edmonton.

There are few curves the Canadian Football League could throw at Stubler that he hasn’t seen before, quite a few times.

He’s been on Grey Cup winning staffs in Hamilton (1986 under Al Bruno), Edmonton (1993, Ron Lancaster), B.C. (2000, Steve Buratto) and Toronto (2004, Pinball Clemons).

He waited 25 years to get a head coaching job in the CFL with Toronto in 2008, and within 10 games he was fired. The 4-6 record he left with got a lot worse under his replacement: Don Matthews, then the winningest coach in league history, went 0-8 to end the season before retiring for good.

So that’s one small thing next week represents for Stubler. Nothing remotely as important as the Lions’ aspiration to be the first team since the 1982 Edmonton Eskimos to repeat as Grey Cup champions, but a meaningful return, all the same, to the city where he succeeded and finally failed — a city that represented two of the nine separate stops he has made, with four clubs, in his CFL career.
A place to take care of some unfinished business?

“Not really. Not any more,” he said Friday afternoon. “You can only be angry for so long. I waited for a lot of years for a shot, and it didn’t work out. I can’t be worried about what happened yesterday.

“It’d be great to get back there — but we’ve got to win this one before we get to play that one.”


That said, the Lions had their best defensive season in history under Stubler, who’s been consistently successful since joining the Tiger-Cats in 1983.

Coming back to B.C. for the third time — he’s also had three stints in Edmonton, and two in Toronto — brought him back to a cast of characters, both on the coaching staff and the field of play, with whom he was very comfortable.

“You know, Benny and I had a great relationship, and he gave me a chance to get back in the league [in 2010],” Stubler said. “When I left [Toronto] in 2008, nobody would even talk to me. I got fired and I called people for jobs and they said, ‘No, we’ve got somebody.’
“Benny gave me the opportunity to come back here. And I really enjoyed it.
“I went to Edmonton last year and it was a transitional year there with Kavis [Reed] — and Kavis is like my son, and we did a yeoman’s job there.”
But when Wally Buono retired as Lions’ coach after last year’s Grey Cup and Benevides got the job, he was either going to retain his defensive coordinator portfolio as well, or hand it off. The only guy he was willing to hand it to was Rich Stubler.

“I had a tremendous amount of respect for him when I studied him and his defences, but when I got to work with him in 2010, I learned a little about what makes him tick, his demeanour, his personality,” Benevides said. “I have a huge admiration for veteran coaches, for guys who have put in the time, and here’s a coach who’s been in the game for 43 years.”

“I would describe the defence he runs as veteran-friendly,” said cornerback Dante Marsh. “You allow the players’ abilities to flourish in the system, instead of trying to put square pegs into round holes.”

“There’s veteran personalities, veteran skill sets where at this point in their careers they do some things better than others,” said Benevides. “And the defence can be massaged to highlight their skills at this point in time.

“This game is ultimately about the players, but it’s also about a coach enabling them, empowering them.”

Buono calls Stubler “very cerebral,” and Marsh referred to some of his game plans as “mad scientist.

“You gotta be able to think the game,” said Marsh. “We’ve got the guys who can think on the fly, quick, and they’re athletic. He’ll come in and say, ‘You guys run the meeting,’ and then he’ll leave. And we own it. And that’s why we play it so well. We’re not robots.”

So, Stubler trusts his players that much?

“Yeah, as he should,” said Marsh. “A lot of times there are plays made by guys that shouldn’t even be there, but we know the defence so well, one person can mess up, the other 11 can make it look like it never happened.”

That’s not to say Stubler is all touchy-feely. He can lose it now and then. And Benevides can lose it on his behalf.

“I’ve been described as an *beep*,” Benevides admits. “But I’ve always said: I learned from the best.” By which, presumably, he means Buono.

“This is a performance-based business and you have to pull from people the best they have. It’s not a popularity contest.”
Stubler, though, is pretty popular. You don’t keep getting hired back to places you’ve been before unless they like you, and your work.

“My dad always told me if you can hold them to one point less than you score, then you win, and it doesn’t matter if it’s 50 or it’s two,” Stubler said. Of course, defensive coordinators whose teams give up 50 don’t last long.
His dad was an all-American at Santa Clara — “He made the cover of Collier’s magazine, got drafted in 1939,” said Stubler. “I’ve still got my dad’s contract from George Halas: $50 a game, but only $25 if he got hurt before halftime.”
Nicholas Stubler never did go to Chicago, though.

“He went with Jack Dempsey in the war, became a USO guy, came back and coached. Coached his whole life. He died right after I won my first Grey Cup (at BC Place).”

Rich Stubler has coached his whole adult life, too.
It’s funny how things have worked out. He’s won two Grey Cups played in Calgary and one in Ottawa. Damon Allen was the winning quarterback in all three of them, and was the backup on the Edmonton team the Ticats beat in 1986.

Maybe one more thing that went around will come around next week.

He had his shot in Toronto. He wouldn’t mind one more.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
Post Reply