Lions ownership discussion thread (Topics merged into here)

[Sir Purrcival]

And respectully I have to disagree back. It's not that Wally isn't polite or cognizant of the role of the fans but his "all knowing" godfather mentallity around matters football don't create great perceptions about his concern for the fans or how the product is perceived in the marketplace. He does the job but the sense is that he does it because it is part of the job, not because he has any real love for that aspect of the job. I believe he would willingly admit that it isn't one of his favourite tasks. He is a big part of the off field machine as well. The idea that he is the least of those worries is a matter of opinion but what seems pretty clear is that when Bob Ackles passed, a huge void was created. Out of all the possibilities to fill that void, Wally Buono was the one that people looked to most. He was and is the face of the BC Lions these days. I think it also fair to say that since that time, we have seen a slow decline in the fortunes of this team. Is it all his fault, no of course not, but he has bascially been the "man" where this team has been concerned since 2008. It would be hard for anyone to fill the shoes of Bobby Ackles completely. A personallity like his probably comes along once in a generation. I certainly don't blame Wally for not being Bob Ackles but his management style and personality choices in the back rooms mimic to some degree his coaching style and personel choices on the field which many have decried as stubborn, one dimensional and not very entertaining. Serviciable yes, the recipe to re-invogorate this frachises fading profile, not so much. Almost a decade of the status quo bears that out.

[David]

Again though, Wally is not the President of the football club. He doesn't oversee the Marketing plan. I want my coach and GM worrying about who's replacing Adam Bighill and how we're going to compete against the Calgary Stampeders, than trying to sign up Telus as a corporate partner.

Put another way, if Bobby Ackles had to worry about game planning a 46-man unit and coaching staff, I doubt he would have been able to pull off the big crowds we saw here a decade ago.


DH

[B.C.FAN]

I have great respect for Bob Ackles. I use one of his quotes from The Water Boy in my signature. But it's time to stop believing that all would be well if he were alive today and actively involved in the business. The biggest change that has affected Lions' attendance, and other sports to a degree, is the fact that all games are now on HDTV and fans can get a much better experience watching on their big screens at home for free than they can in the stadium. That's why many people have given up attending games but still like to watch them on TSN.

The challenges of marketing the team in this era, especially with the changing media landscape, are nothing like Ackles experienced. Dennis Skulsky has maintained strong corporate sponsorship for the Lions. What he, David Braley and others in the organization have failed to do is find a way to reach potential fans and attract them to the stadium by promising them an entertaining and affordable family experience. That requires doing everything possible to reach a new generation of fans. The Lions' social marketing efforts have greatly improved lately but I'm not sure the paid advertising campaign has reached its target market. Ticket discounts such as the $5 kids' tickets can be effective if marketed properly. The onfield product will take care of the rest.

[BC 1988]

SP and David--the problem with Wally is he is being pushed into a role he never really wanted. He is a great football coach and judge of player talent. What he is NOT is the face of the franchise. You only have to hear his nervous tic "you know" to notice that. He makes the appearances on radio on his terms.

Because there is no one doing the role of "face of the franchise" we are blaming him. IMO that's because Skulsky has been officially only half in his position for too long. As B.C FAN said Skulsky has done a good job with corporate sponsors, but everything else has been lacking. Mr. Braley with his health issues is no longer actively involved with the franchise.

Time will tell if the Lions are able to get families back at BC Place--the $5 kids ticket is the best move they've made in some time.

[Sir Purrcival]

I agree with all that you say except to say that I am not really trying to blame Wally. You hit the correct note when you say that he was never interested per se in the behind the scenes stuff. His love is football, his players, the game itself. He has rather unselfishly taken on some of these other roles for the sake of the franchise but it clearly is a part of the biz that he doesn't especially love. I can't say I blame him for that. It isn't like he said, he wanted any of those jobs, he has too much on his plate and he is in a phase of his life where he wants to be slowing down, not crazy busy. All perfectly understandable but that being said, part of the challenge has been that some of his heir apparents have been underwhelming. Those failures have forced Wally back into roles that he tried to put behind him. When you think of folks like Huff, Dickenson who might have been his choices at points and you compare Benevides and Tedford, well, you get the idea. Timing has a lot to do with it but just like with the onfield game, some of the history here is about 'what might have been'. Missed opportunies to really cement this franchise both on and off the field. At any rate, Wally will have to find someone to replace him behind the bench and maybe entirely. I could certainly see him retiring altogether. If Braley is smart, he will try to get whatever deal he is going to do done before that happens. Otherwise, he is going to have to try and fill the space and he doesn't really appear to be that motivated nor is new ownership necessarily wanting to be saddled with new major hires by the guy about to leave.

[BC 1988]

I agree with all that you say except to say that I am not really trying to blame Wally. You hit the correct note when you say that he was never interested per se in the behind the scenes stuff. His love is football, his players, the game itself. He has rather unselfishly taken on some of these other roles for the sake of the franchise but it clearly is a part of the biz that he doesn't especially love. I can't say I blame him for that. It isn't like he said, he wanted any of those jobs, he has too much on his plate and he is in a phase of his life where he wants to be slowing down, not crazy busy. All perfectly understandable but that being said, part of the challenge has been that some of his heir apparents have been underwhelming. Those failures have forced Wally back into roles that he tried to put behind him. When you think of folks like Huff, Dickenson who might have been his choices at points and you compare Benevides and Tedford, well, you get the idea. Timing has a lot to do with it but just like with the onfield game, some of the history here is about 'what might have been'. Missed opportunies to really cement this franchise both on and off the field. At any rate, Wally will have to find someone to replace him behind the bench and maybe entirely. I could certainly see him retiring altogether. If Braley is smart, he will try to get whatever deal he is going to do done before that happens. Otherwise, he is going to have to try and fill the space and he doesn't really appear to be that motivated nor is new ownership necessarily wanting to be saddled with new major hires by the guy about to leave.

Well said--the circumstances of the owner's illness and a CEO who is only partially active could not have come at a more critical time for this franchise. It's imperative that this directionless drifting not continue. I also think Wally is very close to walking away (at this stage of his life, he doesn't need this situation.)

[Jim Mullin]

It's not speaking to the converted. It's trying to get a storyline started with those on the outside by promoting personalities. You guys are already in the door!

Braley is in no hurry to sell and my guess is he will wait until at least the end of the 2017 campaign in hopes of a BC Lions Grey Cup.

Good ad campaign Jim? Not sure if you were being serious, ironic, or facetious. Several (including me) have posted in the 2017 Marketing thread that it's beyond brutal. An insult to the players. The Solly radio ad, "is he an Achilles tendon waiting to explode?" just might be a new franchise low point.

To each his own I guess.


DH

[Jim Mullin]

Early candidate for post of the year.

The move into renovated BC Place really hid the problems that the Lions had marketing/business wise ever since bob died. The crowds were small at tempire. Lifting all the blackouts really started to impact numbers. As people outside Vancouver/Burnaby stopped coming to games due to traffic, etc. When they moved into BC Place again their SSH number went to 26000, and all the marketing people thought they were doing a great job.

On the sale of the club, Braley has already made alot of money off the move into BC Place.
- $7m 2011 grey cup and $10m from 2014 grey cup (massive jump in tix prices -- despite not being a sellout -- is largest gate in canadian history).
- Plus over $2M per year on regular season in first two season in BC place due to large crowds and big increase in ticket prices in premium sections.

Thats not replicatable.

Still, even with poor ticket numbers last year they only lost $300k .. which is basically breakeven on a $20M revenue operation. But the days off $2m+ profits are gone.

Only growth area for the club is trying to get a bigger TV $$$ out of TSN. right now the league gets $40-$45M a year. I note that TSN recently paid $30M to senators for 60ish games that do around 100k per game. CFL games do 600k+ for 84 games plus Grey cup game. Ordinarily that would result in a big increase for the league. But you have huge grey cloud over the entire cable tv industry with changing technology.

Its a tough situation QMan. In the past, our Leos would have gotten a kick-up in attendance with a winning or exciting team. That happened in 2004, when Casey Printers took over as our starter and his exciting style of play brought new fans, including young fans into the building, But even with an exciting quarterback like Jonathan Jennings and a vertical offence in which we led the CFL last season in big plays over 30 yards, we didn't draw the crowds.

Obviously the loss of Bobby Ackles had a huge impact. No question that our Leos marketing/business side suffered since that time. David Skulsky has taken most of the heat but it goes much deeper than that.

Certainly, Braley and Buono didn't view Skulsky as the problem.

“Dennis has been among the most accomplished executives in the history of the CFL,” said team owner David Braley. “He has led the Lions with incredible enthusiasm and expertise and I am very proud to have had him part of this great franchise since his days as a founding member of the Waterboys in 2003, in addition to his time as president. He is a tremendous leader and a dear friend". David Braley

“As a coach and a GM, I could not have asked for a better working partner than Dennis Skulsky,” said Wally Buono. “We have shared a common focus and goal of winning championships for our fans and I will miss his unequaled passion and support of our efforts to build great teams.”

Braley and Buono believed that Buono's return to the sidelines would result in a winning team and translate into larger crowds, with the hope of the team being sold at a higher price. It hasn't happened,

When the Lions closed Level 4 to create a more intimate atmosphere at home games in 2015, fewer fans showed up. When rookie Jonathon Jennings dazzled in relief of Travis Lulay, throwing four touchdown passes and catching another in a 46-20 win over the Saskatchewan Roughriders in his home starting debut, the focus was Buono. leaving the retractable roof closed on what was a very pleasant autumn Saturday.

There have been a plethora of reasons argued why Leos attendance is so low from competition for the sports dollar, the emergence of the Seattle Seahawks as a winner, an aging demographic, younger fans preferring the NFL, the Whitecaps, lifting of blackouts outside of Metro Vancouver, big screen televisions and a better quality television broadcasts, less leisure dollars, the cost of parking/beer, etc., David Skulsky, poor marketing stragegy, and the list goes on,

While all have been factors, the biggest factor, in my opinion, was the cheapness of David Braley, in terms of marketing. Braley has been notoriously cheap in this area in both Toronto and Vancouver.

Braley didn't become a CFL owner to save the CFL or the Argos or the Lions for that matter. Starting off with secret loans in Hamilton and Toronto, he purchased two CFL franchises dirt cheap with the hope of making money on their future sale. If he made an annual profit that was a good thing but he could also write off annual losses while waiting for the franchises to become more valuable. He also made big dollars hosting Grey Cups. Braley became a household name in Canadian sports and the most powerful man in the CFL. He basically ran the roost for years as the owner of two of the eight CFL franchises that were located in two of its three major cities.

The Lions pay no rent on the first $9 million in net ticket sales, according to their contract with the BC Pavilion Corp. They bring in approximately $4 million a year from the league’s TSN/RDS broadcast deal, which was extended through 2021. The league-imposed salary cap in 2015 was $5.05 million.

The cheapness of Braley, in terms of marketing, who had mostly relied on the skill and dedication of Bobby Ackles and a winning team, slowly and agonizingly took effect, as other factors also played their roles. Our Leos didn't market to younger fans nor did we market to females or families. There was no family firiendly ticket pricing nor was there any serious attempts to market our Leos as a social event as well as a sporting event.

It was an illusion that all we needed was the return of Buono to the sidelines and an exciting young quarterback and a winning team was all that was needed to get bums back in the seats and the value and price of our Leos franchise rocketing up the charts.

There is always a point of no return. Our Leos may have reached that point, where even spending a lot of dollars on marketing and also developing a great marketing strategy may not draw the fans back. Just like neglecting a girlfriend until she says goodbye, one can't always get her back after, no matter how hard one tries.

The dum things have also hurt, from Buono not opening up the dome on an stunning autumn day to our Leos closing the upper bowl to mitigate the unappealing look of empty stadium seats.and lend a more intimate feel but increasing the price of cheaper seats inside the stadium, which hurt sales. Our Leos could also throw away a million dollars on a cheap guaranteed win stunt but chintz our on hiring more people for the marketing department and utilize proven marketing strategies.

That our Leos can't draw huge home crowds with a young dynamic exciting quarterback lke Jonathan Jennings or a thrilling player like Chris Rainey or with the Manny Show says it all.

In 2010, the year our Leos played at decrepit Empire Field, with a less than exciting team we still averaged over 24,000 fans per game. We averaged more than 34,000 per game in 2008. Heck, we averaged over 20,000 fans per game in 1998, Braley's second season as our owner and it was a miserable season.

Our Leos lost one fan after another and now only the die hards remain loyal. Loyalty has to be earned and is easily lost.

We had the second worst attendance record in the CFL last year, and we were well below the league average while having the second best record in the CFL. Toronto, at least, had more legitimate reasons for its poor attendance last season than our Leos did.

For a time Braley was viewed as a savior in Toronto and Vancouver. Perhaps he was for a time. He sold the Argos for a profit but it was a franchise in tatters. Braley will also walk away from our Leos with a profit but not the profit he anticipated. When he does, he will have walked away from both franchises, while leaving them in a sorry state, fan wise.

What makes me sad, being such a long time Leos supporter, is that this Leos team of players really deserves being watched by huge crowds. I'm looking forward to watching them play as much, if not more, than any Leos team ever.

[Blitz]

I have great respect for Bob Ackles. I use one of his quotes from The Water Boy in my signature. But it's time to stop believing that all would be well if he were alive today and actively involved in the business. The biggest change that has affected Lions' attendance, and other sports to a degree, is the fact that all games are now on HDTV and fans can get a much better experience watching on their big screens at home for free than they can in the stadium. That's why many people have given up attending games but still like to watch them on TSN.

The challenges of marketing the team in this era, especially with the changing media landscape, are nothing like Ackles experienced. Dennis Skulsky has maintained strong corporate sponsorship for the Lions. What he, David Braley and others in the organization have failed to do is find a way to reach potential fans and attract them to the stadium by promising them an entertaining and affordable family experience. That requires doing everything possible to reach a new generation of fans. The Lions' social marketing efforts have greatly improved lately but I'm not sure the paid advertising campaign has reached its target market. Ticket discounts such as the $5 kids' tickets can be effective if marketed properly. The onfield product will take care of the rest.

There is no question that all football teams are dealing with the new reality of big screen TV's, PVR's, and the ability to pause a game, grab a snack from the fridge, and not miss a play. Instant replays, better quality football telecasts, etc.

However, why has our Leos attendance slumped so badly in comparison to most other teams?

Our Leos attendance problems are usually lumped in with Toronto's attendance problems but in many ways they have been different situations and Toronto's poor attendance numbers were more understandable.

Both Toronto and Vancouver have had one similarity, until thankfully, Braley sold the Argos. Both were Braley ownership situations.

Its tougher in Toronto than in Vancouver to win fan dollars and attention. They have the Blue Jays and the Raptors whereas our Leos don't have a professional baseball team and basketball team to compete against for fan season ticket holders dollars.

But while it was especially tough in Toronto and tough in Vancouer, in terms of competition for sports fan dollars, Braley made it impossible in Toronto and much tougher in Vancouver than needed to be.

The Argos, in 2015, dealt with being displaced from Rogers Center for the Pan Am games and the Blue Jays playoff run with scheduling conflicts as well. Home games were played in Fort McMurray (3700 km. away) and in Hamilton, where local Hamilton fans could pick up dirt cheap tickets (attendance there was 3400 per game) and attend the game just to chant "The Argos suck".

But Braley had already almost killed the Argos in 2014, when he decided to sell the club. He had slashed the Argos marketing department and advertising for the Argos was almost non-existent (so much for caring about the CFL and 'his team (s)'.

Many long time staff of the Argos jumped off the Argos ship as if they were jumping off the Titanic. In Toronto, players and coaches had bounced between practice faciliites for years (the Argo's office portables at the U of Toronto actually burned down in 2011 and Braley would not fund a permanent place. The Argos meeting rooms had curtains as dividers and their budget would not allow the team to bring in NFL cuts.

Braley was notoriously known as being incredibly cheap in Toronto. Without anyone to market and sell tickets, both long time and causal fans both disappeared there.

Basically, Braley Braley bailed on funding the Argos, They were badly strapped for cash for years, as Braley injected less and less money ,while pricing them well above market value. But he could not find a sucker who would pay his price. The Argos were run like the old Renegades.

It was like watching a slow death while Braley offered no pain killers but instead Braley kept increasing the agony of it as well as prolonging it.

In Vancouver, Braley has also been cheap with marketing and there is no excuse for his doing so with our Leos. When we closed the upper bowl, ticket prices were raised. Our marketing has always been done on the cheap under Braley in Vancouver and gotten worse.

So, yes, B.C. Fan, I understand that the market in Vancouver is different than in Calgary, Edmonton, and Regina. But they also have big screen HGTV screens and pro hockey teams in Calgary and Edmonton and competition for the sports dollar there too.

Bobby Ackles, as you commented, would be having a tougher time in this market. But I highly doubt we would be in a situation as badly as we are now if Ackles was still alive and President of our Leos.

We have an absentee owner who is notoriously cheap, Buono is the face of the franchise, and Braley and Braley are the mutual admiration society. I don't think the linkage is beneficial to Buono, overall, these days.

I have my critical view of Buono, at times, in terms of football strategy, but we had an exciting quarterback last season, an exciting team, and this year's team looks to be both one of our most exciting and talented teams ever, no matter how good or not good our record turns out this 2017 season.

Buono has done a very good job in terms of creating a sense of confidence in this football team, as HC, in terms of both winning and an exciting product since he returned as HC last season.

But its an uphill battle now to get bums in the seats. We lost fans that we should not have lost and its proving difficult to get them back as well as bring new ones in. Every pro football team in North America is facing the same type of challenges as our Leos. Yes, some markets experience additional challenges, as do our Leos.

But most have spent more money, not less on marketing, have expanded their marketing departments, as well as developed more sophisticated and modern marketing strategies, whereas our Leos have not done so. That starts with David Braley but Skulsky, Buono, etc. also could have stepped up more at times too to help more in attempting to get this turned around.

I'm not going to let the lack of fan interest in our Leos spoil what should be an enjoyable season for me overall. I just think our Leos team and players deserve to be watched due to their talents. Wally will frustrate me at times with some of his game calls and strategies but this team has direction, team discipline, cohesion, and excitement.

With much better marketing, we could get more bums in the seats and once they watched this team, or watched this team again, they would be hooked. But our Leos are under the radar and there is much more to that than just big screen HDTV screens. This is not a well run organization, outside of the football team itself. That has hurt fan attendance more than anything.

Our Leos are basically a very good football team with a very seasoned and well known HC/GM and with many elite and talented players but most everything else, away from the practice field and playing field and scouting department is being done poorly, cheaply, or inadequately.

[almo89]

Growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I remember what it was like to have people not care about the Lions at all. It has the same feeling now except the team we have now is good and our QB is easily the most exciting we have had since Casey Printers. That to me is very alarming. At least those 90s teams were crap with exception to the 94 run. This version of the Lions feature a high octane offense and we can't get people to watch. I remember when Ackles came back in the early 2000s, within a few years we saw a lot of young people and teenagers walking around with Lions gear. I was like wow kids are catching on now. We saw 55,000 come to the Western Final in a NHL lock out year. All the stars seemed to align. But the last few years the fan interest has really dropped so fast that it's kind of unbelievable. Blitz you are right on when it comes to Braley. Besides the short time Ackles was in charge, most of Braleys tenure here is pretty much what we are experiencing now. Right now it just feels too much like the 90s when it comes to fan interest.

[Qman]

Growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I remember what it was like to have people not care about the Lions at all. It has the same feeling now except the team we have now is good and our QB is easily the most exciting we have had since Casey Printers. That to me is very alarming. At least those 90s teams were crap with exception to the 94 run. This version of the Lions feature a high octane offense and we can't get people to watch. I remember when Ackles came back in the early 2000s, within a few years we saw a lot of young people and teenagers walking around with Lions gear. I was like wow kids are catching on now. We saw 55,000 come to the Western Final in a NHL lock out year. All the stars seemed to align. But the last few years the fan interest has really dropped so fast that it's kind of unbelievable. Blitz you are right on when it comes to Braley. Besides the short time Ackles was in charge, most of Braleys tenure here is pretty much what we are experiencing now. Right now it just feels too much like the 90s when it comes to fan interest.

your comparing attendance with blackouts vs no-blackouts. Excluding the post-reno BC Place surge. BC lions attendance was 20-25k for last 10 years ... Tempire to now. Braley never adjusted his pricing structure to free TV era, infact made it worst by raising his prices drastically in last 10 years. No one east of New West comes to games any more ... too easy to watch on TV. Traffic issues in GVRD have contributed to this as well. Skulsky has pointed this this out -- vast majority of lions season ticket holders are Vancouver and Burnaby.

Lions TV viewership is among the highest it has every been. Saw a news items last season BC Lions games had more TV viewers than canucks games by a wide margin (canucks horrible season contributed it to this).

[Sir Purrcival]

Growing up as a teenager in the 90s, I remember what it was like to have people not care about the Lions at all. It has the same feeling now except the team we have now is good and our QB is easily the most exciting we have had since Casey Printers. That to me is very alarming. At least those 90s teams were crap with exception to the 94 run. This version of the Lions feature a high octane offense and we can't get people to watch. I remember when Ackles came back in the early 2000s, within a few years we saw a lot of young people and teenagers walking around with Lions gear. I was like wow kids are catching on now. We saw 55,000 come to the Western Final in a NHL lock out year. All the stars seemed to align. But the last few years the fan interest has really dropped so fast that it's kind of unbelievable. Blitz you are right on when it comes to Braley. Besides the short time Ackles was in charge, most of Braleys tenure here is pretty much what we are experiencing now. Right now it just feels too much like the 90s when it comes to fan interest.

No one east of New West comes to games any more ... too easy to watch on TV. Traffic issues in GVRD have contributed to this as well. Skulsky has pointed this this out -- vast majority of lions season ticket holders are Vancouver and Burnaby.

Sadly this is something I've been banging on about for the last couple of years. Having to go downtown for games becomes a great big drag unless you live someplace close. I live in Port Moody which isn't even that far and by the time it is finished door to door, we are looking at 5 - 6 hours with driving time, parking and so on. That doesn't even factor in the costs that go with that. I can't imagine what someone from Maple Ridge or South Surrey or Langley would have to deal with. I know that some think that having a Stadium in the downtown core is hip, contemporary, sort of jet setish, but in reality, logistically is a big eater of time and an expensive proposition. Can't imagine trying to get 8 an year old to and from a game while living in Langley. And realistically where are most young, potential fans living these days? Most young families cannot afford much of anything north of the Fraser. To me, the location of BC Place was a bad idea from the get go all those years ago and that coupled with some of the other factors that people have already mentioned is going to be a continuing challenge. However it is what it is. It isn't going to change so I guess I should stop yammering on about it.

[Hambone]

I live in Port Moody which isn't even that far and by the time it is finished door to door, we are looking at 5 - 6 hours with driving time, parking and so on. That doesn't even factor in the costs that go with that.

Does that new Evergreen extension that goes through Port Moody and into Coquitlam not alleviate some of the travel issues to BC Place Sir P? Not for everybody but it must make things a lot easier for many versus the alternatives.

[aklawitter]

I'm not buying the travel argument for Valley people. I had seasons tickets before the new Port Mann, talk about an actual nightmare

[B.C.FAN]

I'm not buying the travel argument for Valley people. I had seasons tickets before the new Port Mann, talk about an actual nightmare

I drive from Langley but I grumble and curse a lot in Friday night traffic. If I can't make it or have extra tickets for a Friday or other weeknight game, I usually can't give them away. Most people I know in the Valley don't get home in time to turn around and head downtown for 7 p.m.

Saturday games are no problem and the traffic is a breeze.