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cromartie
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First of all, some of you have caused me to see Skulsky a little differently, which I appreciate. Even if he's only good at keeping the corporate portion of the lights on, he's at least good at keeping one portion of the lights on, and it's the high dollar version and for that he should be commended.

Let's set aside the anecdotal "my friends don't care (DOH!) anymore" and start with a basic premise. Television ratings are good locally, and merchandise sales are good locally (2nd in the CFL at one point, if memory serves). That's one immediate differentiator from the Toronto situation.

So that means interest hasn't waned, but attendance has. From this, what can we conclude?

1) The stadium experience could be a problem.
2) The team could be performing poorly enough that the potential product doesn't justify the cost (poor value proposition).
3) The logistics of getting to the the stadium could be the problem.
4) Inadequate marketing.
Some combination of all of the above.

If the television ratings out draw the Canucks, then awareness of and interest in the product on at least a casual basis has to be fairly high. If people are buying merchandise, to some extent, then, they're willing to invest emotionally and literally in the product. So to some extent the marketing of the product has to be both creating awareness and the product itself has to be worthy to some degree of investment.

So that leaves us with the gameday experience itself, which is probably the root problem. If I can acquire your product conveniently at a lower cost than I can inconveniently, why exactly am I going to choose the latter over the former?

This strikes me as the core of the problem, and it has two solutions:

1) Television revenue should be much larger than it is; probably enough to alleviate the critical need for gate revenue, since television is the primary reason gate revenue is such a challenge and

2) The club should do the best it can to focus efforts in these areas:
A) Market the personalities on the team. Humanizing the players helps broaden the team appeal and bridge the gap.
B) Enhance the gameday experience and make it more appealing while
C) Focusing its efforts on marketing to those for whom transportation to the games make them most likely to attend.
D) Leverage corporate marketing to create brand awareness to a larger audience that is less likely to attend.

The Argos are another category altogether, but the Blue Jays are a better comparison of how the Lions should approach this. Focused marketing on creating an event for people who are proximate to the stadium with an improved gameday experience yields more results and better attendance than carpetbombing Scarborough and Oshawa with billboards on the hope people will drive to a game. Carpet bomb the neighborhoods and public transport in Vancouver proper.

Winning is the best deodorant, of course. Win a Grey Cup and attendance goes up the year afterward. But if you want to be critical of marketing, I'd encourage you to look at it through this prism:

If I can acquire your product conveniently at a lower cost than I can inconveniently, why exactly am I going to choose the latter over the former?

And think again about your answer.

PS: On the core topic, I agree that the team needs to be sold, and I have great trepidation about the post Wally future, and I wish I had the answer there.
Last edited by cromartie on Mon Jun 19, 2017 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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David
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cromartie wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:34 am
"my friends don't acre anymore"
...said the dyslexic farmer. :wink: Sorry, couldn't resist.

Excellent points as usual Cro. There are likely as many answers as to why attendance has waned as there are players on the field. Likely a confluence of factors:

* cost of living on the Lower Mainland
* escalating ticket prices over the years
* traffic congestion to and around the stadium (thanks in part to Gregor's beloved bike lanes)
* presence of Whitecaps as competition for the entertainment dollar
* success of Seahawks and their superior game-day experience
* mediocre game day exp at BC Place
* insufficient marketing of club

These are all valid reasons, some more than others (i.e. I think some can hop on transit in less time than it takes to drive to the game, but they don't want to get out of their cars. Still, perception is reality).

To me, it comes down to how the club has failed to connect with the casual sports fan in this town. Exactly how they have managed to achieve this ignominious feat startles me. It's a tremendously exciting team with the most talented young quarterback in the league, and a supporting cast of highly skilled, character guys - many of whom are genuinely funny, charismatic, and likeable guys. How you can f**k up this recipe, I have no idea.

But the Lions need to do 2 things. First, provide a value proposition to attending games and a differentiator over staying at home. They have addressed the former with the $5 kids tickets for 5 games this summer. :thup: But they need to make coming to the stadium more enticing than watching TSN (it doesn't help when Wally kept the roof closed last game, creating a sauna effect. :roll:). Concerts after the game? In game app for stats? Pregame tailgate parties? Collectable giveaways (giving bobble heads a rest). There are tons of ideas.

Second, keep pushing the personalities. I love the post-game 'game ball' camera in the locker room. Keep showing these guys in the community, without helmets. A half-hour TV show, although expensive to produce, would help immensely. Not a fan of the "Who Is" campaign, but at least it's getting the Lions' name out there and providing close-ups of the club's elite players (there needs to be a pay-off to find out who they are. For example, "Who Is Jonathon Jennings? Log into *****" (to see his amazing game-winning TD in the Western Semi etc).



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WestCoastJoe
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:cheer:
David wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:01 pm

But the Lions need to do 2 things. First, provide a value proposition to attending games and a differentiator over staying at home. They have addressed the former with the $5 kids tickets for 5 games this summer. :thup: But they need to make coming to the stadium more enticing than watching TSN (it doesn't help when Wally kept the roof closed last game, creating a sauna effect. :roll:). Concerts after the game? In game app for stats? Pregame tailgate parties? Collectable giveaways (giving bobble heads a rest). There are tons of ideas.
Good points, David.

How and Why are we in this position? Amongst many other factors ...

Marketing on the cheap.

No one with the vision and/or determination to make it happen.

Holding pattern attitude ... waiting on the owner, David Braley. Waiting on Wally.

.....

Agreed. I think it could be done. I think the makings are there for large fan support. As things stand, not likely. Open air game experience. Closing the roof on a summer's eve seems to be a Wally superstition. And he is the Boss. In stadium support has to be an event, beyond the game itself. Food. Entertainment. Internet stats live. Fun. I used to love Krazy George. Cheer leading. It has to be fun.

This fan would rather sit in the rain all bundled up, than in a sauna. At old Empire Stadium it was fun watching the cheerleaders slop and even flop deliberately in the mud. LOL

There is the football product. Wally deserves and gets credit.

Fan experience product? Maybe not so much. Blame to go around.

If Braley is no longer losing boatloads of money, I suppose he counts it a business success, as well as a football success. Plus sentimental and loyalty value for him.

Sports ownership on the cheap.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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WestCoastJoe wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:42 pm
Open air game experience. Closing the roof on a summer's eve seems to be a Wally superstition.
Closing the roof when it isn't raining like Friday is not going to draw in fans. It was muggy in there. Reminded me of the days of the closed stadium. :bang:
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When BC Place is as muggy as it was on Friday, I can't help but wonder that it can't be great for the players. Did anyone see how drenched in sweat Manny was when he was shown on the big screen? I was surprised we didn't see guys cramp up.

Yes, we were pissed about the roof being closed and felt we were made uncomfortable for no good reason. But if Wally wants to restrict the arguments re. open or closed roof to footballing ones, then maybe he needs to consider the health of his players.

As for overall fan experience, that contributed a huge :thdn:

I received an email to complete a post-game survey and took the opportunity to register my displeasure.
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Bosco
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The Lions and the CFL need to do a much better job to attract the millennials to games. Granted, the millennials are not the only group staying away from the CFL, but if they are attending any game in BC Place, it's on nights when the Whitecaps are playing - not the Lions.

I have two millennials at home (*sigh*) and although my older son has his own season ticket, he seems to be an anomaly - that is, someone in their mid 20's at a Lions game - let alone as a season ticket holder. The younger millennial in my house doesn't know of anyone his age who attends Lions games, but would easily attend an occasional Whitecaps games and especially a Seahawk game if given the opportunity.

I also work with a number of millennials and the CFL is not even a blip on their radar if choosing a weekend event.

Somehow / someway, the CFL and the Lions need to attract the 20 somethings. Us 50 somethings are the Lions season ticket base, but an ageing demographic is not the best demographic.
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B.C.FAN
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CardiacKid wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:25 pm
When BC Place is as muggy as it was on Friday, I can't help but wonder that it can't be great for the players. Did anyone see how drenched in sweat Manny was when he was shown on the big screen? I was surprised we didn't see guys cramp up.

Yes, we were pissed about the roof being closed and felt we were made uncomfortable for no good reason. But if Wally wants to restrict the arguments re. open or closed roof to footballing ones, then maybe he needs to consider the health of his players.

As for overall fan experience, that contributed a huge :thdn:

I received an email to complete a post-game survey and took the opportunity to register my displeasure.
There's no way the roof would be open on a cool, wet day, as Friday was. I drove through rain in Burnaby to get to the stadium. It cleared up nicely at game time and got warm inside by halftime but the Lions usually announce the roof status mid-afternoon so fans can plan accordingly. I don't think they're allowed to open or close the roof during the game.
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cromartie
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Counterpoint:
To me, it comes down to how the club has failed to connect with the casual sports fan in this town. Exactly how they have managed to achieve this ignominious feat startles me.
If television ratings are high, and merchandise sales are high, and corporate investment is high, and online hits/likes/views are high you are connecting with fans .

The problem is in your definition of connection. People connect differently in this day and age than they used to. Your primary definition of connection is gate attendance, while in other ways it's revenue. If anything, the Lions need to get smarter in their web presence. The app (or at least my version) hasn't been updated in quite some time, and lacks a sponsor. They're really falling flat on that. You've heard me, as someone who is a non-local fan, rail against the lack of online availability for equipment at the year end locker room sale for quite some time, and I can't be alone in that.

The paucity of the game day experience isn't something I'd debate with you guys. But the degree of connection I think requires viewing what that means a bit differently, and that may not be as bad as we think, though you can certainly argue the Lions, and the league, aren't deriving the revenue they should from it.
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David
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No, by "connecting" I don't just mean attendance, although in a gate-driven league that's a huge part of it.

I am talking about buzz generated, and it's one of those intangibles you'd have to experience by living here. Lions' games were the 3rd highest rated in the league on TSN last year, so by that measure I presume there is a decent number of people watching from this area. Sponsorship and merchandise? Would need to see their books. I am not going to take their word on something like that ("sponsorship is up over last year" MAY mean the number of sponsors increased slightly, but they're paying much less so overall revenue is down). I don't see a heck of a lot of merchandise on people walking the streets of Vancouver. Some, sure. But not a lot. It could be that they're selling to the same hard-core group of fans over and over.

By connecting, I am talking about what Bosco brought up. That the Leos aren't even a blip on most 18-34 year olds' radar. Sad but true. No disrespect to Whitecaps fans, but the Lions are a lot closer to the top league in the world than theirs is. It's all perception though, and the general sense I get is that the Whitecaps are fun and cool, and the Lions are a stale brand and rather 'small time.' That's the perception that needs to change, and it can. Look at Ottawa.


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B.C.FAN wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 11:02 pm
aklawitter wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:17 pm
I'm not buying the travel argument for Valley people. I had seasons tickets before the new Port Mann, talk about an actual nightmare
I drive from Langley but I grumble and curse a lot in Friday night traffic. If I can't make it or have extra tickets for a Friday or other weeknight game, I usually can't give them away. Most people I know in the Valley don't get home in time to turn around and head downtown for 7 p.m.

Saturday games are no problem and the traffic is a breeze.
With all due respect to northeastern and "south of the Fraser" residents, hands up anyone who seriously believes that attendance would increase if they moved to a stadium in, say, Coquitlam, Surrey, North Delta, or even Richmond? Maybe south or central Burnaby or New West, but where would they build a stadium there?
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B.C.FAN
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Coast Mountain Lion wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:04 pm
With all due respect to northeastern and "south of the Fraser" residents, hands up anyone who seriously believes that attendance would increase if they moved to a stadium in, say, Coquitlam, Surrey, North Delta, or even Richmond? Maybe south or central Burnaby or New West, but where would they build a stadium there?
I fully support downtown stadium locations in Vancouver and North American cities in general, as much as it frustrates me to get downtown from the Valley on a weeknight. As other have said, the club needs to do a better job of attracting people who live in the city of Vancouver, especially millennials and young families, if there are any any young families left in the city.

I couldn't help but notice how thousands, if not tens of thousands, of Canadian millennials went to Seattle a couple of weeks ago to cheer for the Blue Jays against the Mariners. The Blue Jays seem to be hot with young adults in Vancouver, as in Toronto. The Seahawks seem to have a passionate following locally in the same demographic, even though most surveys say the CFL/Lions fan base is bigger in the Vancouver area. The CFL's social marketing efforts have improved greatly in recent years and the Lions' team videos are among the best in the league. I don't know what else it would take to make a breakthrough with the under-40 crowd.
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Bosco
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B.C.FAN wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:26 pm
I couldn't help but notice how thousands, if not tens of thousands, of Canadian millennials went to Seattle a couple of weeks ago to cheer for the Blue Jays against the Mariners. The Blue Jays seem to be hot with young adults in Vancouver, as in Toronto. The Seahawks seem to have a passionate following locally in the same demographic, even though most surveys say the CFL/Lions fan base is bigger in the Vancouver area.
The Blue Jays invasion of Seattle is most certainly an example of how millennials have "bought in" to an event. I met millennials that weekend who slept in their car in Seattle, just so they could be a part of the experience.

Perhaps this is what the CFL and Lions need to market - "it's not just a game...it's an experience!"
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David
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Haha, I'd love to know the point at which Canada went soft on Toronto. It used to be despised (envied?). Hogtown. Centre Of The Universe. The epicentre of Canadian commerce. In the white collar world, all good jobs led there, and if you stayed in your hometown, you did so at your (career) peril. They couldn't understand why you wouldn't want to move there. Their teams signed every big name they could....and would still lose.

Millennials have no regard for the 'despise all things Toronto' tradition. It's been lost. Like sheep, they walk around every Canadian town now with Blue Jays hats and scruffy beards, totally succumbing to Rogers' corporate brainwashing.


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CardiacKid
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Bosco wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:08 pm
B.C.FAN wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:26 pm
I couldn't help but notice how thousands, if not tens of thousands, of Canadian millennials went to Seattle a couple of weeks ago to cheer for the Blue Jays against the Mariners. The Blue Jays seem to be hot with young adults in Vancouver, as in Toronto. The Seahawks seem to have a passionate following locally in the same demographic, even though most surveys say the CFL/Lions fan base is bigger in the Vancouver area.
The Blue Jays invasion of Seattle is most certainly an example of how millennials have "bought in" to an event. I met millennials that weekend who slept in their car in Seattle, just so they could be a part of the experience.

Perhaps this is what the CFL and Lions need to market - "it's not just a game...it's an experience!"
I can quite easily envision those same millennials jumping off the Jay's bandwagon en masse as soon as the team returns to scooping out the privies at Fort York....
This past weekend I spoke with a few American tourists who recognized my Leo's togs and they started talking CFL. They were all "yeah, we watch CFL. We love it! It is so fast paced, exciting" etc. Maybe those young Canadians resistant to the charms of 3 down football need to listen to the American perspective of our game.
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David
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CardiacKid wrote:
Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:09 pm
This past weekend I spoke with a few American tourists who recognized my Leo's togs and they started talking CFL. They were all "yeah, we watch CFL. We love it! It is so fast paced, exciting" etc. Maybe those young Canadians resistant to the charms of 3 down football need to listen to the American perspective of our game.
Isn't it amazing how many Americans speak glowingly of the CFL game? Especially NFL football executives (scouts, GMs etc.). There seems to be more respect down there for our game than many Canadians have! Americans seem more comfortable enjoying different forms of the sport - be it high school, college, pros. They take each for what it is. It seems in Canada, we have to choose one! :roll:

On a related note, did anyone catch the new Gruden video? In it, he's wearing an Argos hat and "talking up" Marc Trestman. Brilliant PR move by the Argos for a bit of name recognition cache. :thup:


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