Lions ownership discussion thread (Topics merged into here)

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SammyGreene
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Very interesting article by Mackin. Thanks for posting David. The only thing I would refute is the price tag for the team being dropped to $20 million. That's not what Mojo said a few weeks ago on 1040 when the Aquillini/Sidoo interest was revealed. I think if that was the case the team would be sold by now but Braley is still hoping for an offer closer to $30 million.

Moray Keith sure says all the right things and he certainly has had his finger on the pulse of the club over the years. Always saw him on the Operation Orange trips and is good friends with Skulsky. One of my concerns is could be too much of the status quo with even Skulsky returning to a more prominent role with a Waterboys led group — certainly that's what LU suggested about a year ago when Skulsky wanted to resign as club president. There really needs to be fresh ideas.

Having been at the Canucks Team Store at Tsawwassen Mills a few times over the course of the season, one of their longstanding offers is a free pair of tickets with the purchase of a customized jersey (imagine seeing that deal about 6 years ago?). Ironically, it goes for the same price as a Lions custom jersey, about $179.99. But always thought how great it would be to see at least 25 percent of the store dedicated to Lions merchandise and similar deals offered if the Aquillinis purchased the team.

Have to say I felt sorry for the Whitecaps Wednesday night for such an abysmal crowd (generously announced at 17,000) for what was considered the most important game in their MLS history at least. Even an open letter from Carl Robinson to the fans didn't help. Caps have done a very nice job selling the "best sporting atmosphere" in the city (cringe!) and limiting the seating configuration to somewhat create demand for tickets. But for year #7 in the MLS the actual interest for the on field product and results is weak at best.

This town has never been more fickle for supporting their local pro teams with fewer and fewer diehards. The cost of living, dramatic change in demographics and HDTV are three big factors but there always seems to be a list of excuses not to attend games. I'm not holding my breath expecting to see a jump in Lions attendance this coming season either.
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David
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SammyGreene wrote:Have to say I felt sorry for the Whitecaps Wednesday night for such an abysmal crowd (generously announced at 17,000) for what was considered the most important game in their MLS history at least. Even an open letter from Carl Robinson to the fans didn't help. Caps have done a very nice job selling the "best sporting atmosphere" in the city (cringe!) and limiting the seating configuration to somewhat create demand for tickets. But for year #7 in the MLS the actual interest for the on field product and results is weak at best.

It was 17K if they were counting hands and feet! Don't forget, many in the end zone (Southsiders) stand, giving the appearance of more people, plus they tarp of a significant portion of the lower bowl....and it still looked half empty. I'd say 12K or 13K was a more accurate count.

And not to derail this thread, but that Robinson column was a complete joke for a major metropolitan daily. Nothing against the guy - I admire his passion. He seems like a guy you'd want to share a pint with but c'mon, that was an embarrassing. The Province Sports gave a page of space to a Manager who had to explain to readers how important the match is and how "we need you to be loud." I'd love to know how that came together and received editorial approval (from Paul Chapman?). I think journalism in this town hit a new low.


DH :cool:
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chwk_lionsfan
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I trust Keith about as far as I can throw him. Look back at how he and his ownership group bungled the Chilliwack Bruins WHL franchise.
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David wrote:
SammyGreene wrote:Have to say I felt sorry for the Whitecaps Wednesday night for such an abysmal crowd (generously announced at 17,000) for what was considered the most important game in their MLS history at least. Even an open letter from Carl Robinson to the fans didn't help. Caps have done a very nice job selling the "best sporting atmosphere" in the city (cringe!) and limiting the seating configuration to somewhat create demand for tickets. But for year #7 in the MLS the actual interest for the on field product and results is weak at best.

It was 17K if they were counting hands and feet! Don't forget, many in the end zone (Southsiders) stand, giving the appearance of more people, plus they tarp of a significant portion of the lower bowl....and it still looked half empty. I'd say 12K or 13K was a more accurate count.

And not to derail this thread, but that Robinson column was a complete joke for a major metropolitan daily. Nothing against the guy - I admire his passion. He seems like a guy you'd want to share a pint with but c'mon, that was an embarrassing. The Province Sports gave a page of space to a Manager who had to explain to readers how important the match is and how "we need you to be loud." I'd love to know how that came together and received editorial approval (from Paul Chapman?). I think journalism in this town hit a new low.


DH :cool:
saw on twitter it was closer to 7000 (including 2000 fans from mexico) for the biggest soccer game in this town in years.

yet another reason, we can't have weekday games Lions or whitecaps in Vancouver anymore. Canucks starting to feel it too (although a significant number of their premium ticket holders work downtown). Its just too hard to get around after work on weekdays for blue collar fans.
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Sir Purrcival
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I'm afraid the malaise is only going to increase. As our pop ages, as young people find it harder and harder to make ends meet, etc., etc., people are just not willing to spend the dollars, brave the traffic and parking and what not. I generally avoid the downtown like the plague. There is just nothing there that interests me. I think I was there 4 times last year. 3 of those times were for games. Just not that exciting for me anymore. There are few that I know that have any interest in attending and even my wife who will go with me does so only for my benefit. It is pretty hard to get excited about going under those circumstances.
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Sir Purrcival wrote:I'm afraid the malaise is only going to increase. As our pop ages, as young people find it harder and harder to make ends meet, etc., etc., people are just not willing to spend the dollars, brave the traffic and parking and what not. I generally avoid the downtown like the plague. There is just nothing there that interests me. I think I was there 4 times last year. 3 of those times were for games. Just not that exciting for me anymore. There are few that I know that have any interest in attending and even my wife who will go with me does so only for my benefit. It is pretty hard to get excited about going under those circumstances.
canucks are next ... you can get tickets for 50% of the cost on stubhub for most sections all the time. How many season ticketholders will they have in 2 years if they continue to charge the same prices as when they were president's trophy level, 5000-8000 maybe
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David
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I'm not going to hijack this thread into a hockey discussion, only to say I'm shocked at how many Canucks fans - and especially members of the media - were actively rooting for the team to blow leads and lose game-after-game down the stretch. For what? Just to get a shot at a slightly better draft pick in a year where there's hardly a really clear delineation among the Top 5 picks?

Be careful what you wish for.

Losing is insidious. A losing culture can take hold of a room, particularly with young players, and it becomes a mindset. A habit. It's very difficult to reverse it. I think too many Canuck fans have been falsely influenced by what's happened in Edmonton and Toronto and think, "that could be us." Forgetting of course, that both hit the lotto with "twice in a generation" players (McDavid and Matthews respectively) - completely disregarding the undeniable fact that both franchises have completely sucked for a number of years....especially the Oilers with all of those #1 overalls.


DH :cool:
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Hambone
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Sir Purrcival wrote:I'm afraid the malaise is only going to increase. As our pop ages, as young people find it harder and harder to make ends meet, etc., etc., people are just not willing to spend the dollars, brave the traffic and parking and what not. I generally avoid the downtown like the plague. There is just nothing there that interests me. I think I was there 4 times last year. 3 of those times were for games. Just not that exciting for me anymore. There are few that I know that have any interest in attending and even my wife who will go with me does so only for my benefit. It is pretty hard to get excited about going under those circumstances.
It's odd how all that works. I made 6 of 9 regular season games. I would've come down for the final vs SSK but opted to pass because they played the week before and had the WSF the following week. All tld I made 7 games flying down from either PG or FSJohn for 5 and driving for the other 2. Flying is expensive but so very painless. In a matter of less than 2-1/2 hours I can leave my place in PG and be checking into my hotel in Vancouver. This season it looks like I'll be working in 100 Mile House closer than I've been to BC Place and I think I might hate it because flying is so much less of an option given it's either backtrack more than an hour to Williams Lake or 2+ hours to Kamloops. Might as well suck it up and drive to Van.
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B.C.FAN
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Same old, same old story from David Braley, interviewed Monday by Rick Dhaliwal of News 1130 Sports:
Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports
#BCLions owner David Braley said reports that he is down to 2 candidates to sell his team are not true.
Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports
Braley says no decision has been made on selling the team and he continues to talk with 3-4 groups.
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Hambone
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B.C.FAN wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:44 am
Same old, same old story from David Braley, interviewed Monday by Rick Dhaliwal of News 1130 Sports:
Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports
#BCLions owner David Braley said reports that he is down to 2 candidates to sell his team are not true.
Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports
Braley says no decision has been made on selling the team and he continues to talk with 3-4 groups.
Selling a sports team isn't a simple transaction like selling a used car where you're happy to sell it to the first person who is interested in paying your price or close enough to it that you're willing to accept the offer. You don't really care who they are, where they live or how they're going to drive it once you have the money and they have the keys.

I think what complicates the sale of the Lions is how much Braley loves and respects both the CFL and the Lions. There's probably another Skalbania, Pezim, Schwarz or Chen out there he could sell the Lions to tomorrow. I think he sincerely wants to sell to the prospective ownership group that he believes truly has the same passion for the club and league and is also local . When I read the second quote I read less into the first part and more into the second part. While he hasn't decided to sell that he continues to talk with 3-4 groups tells me he's in the process. I think the decision to sell will happen the instant he concludes that yes this one group out of the four (maybe there are others yet to surface) is the right one to be the next owners of the Lions.
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Ravi
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Hambone wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 9:45 am
B.C.FAN wrote:
Mon Jun 05, 2017 8:44 am
Same old, same old story from David Braley, interviewed Monday by Rick Dhaliwal of News 1130 Sports:
Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports
#BCLions owner David Braley said reports that he is down to 2 candidates to sell his team are not true.
Rick Dhaliwal‏ @DhaliwalSports
Braley says no decision has been made on selling the team and he continues to talk with 3-4 groups.
Selling a sports team isn't a simple transaction like selling a used car where you're happy to sell it to the first person who is interested in paying your price or close enough to it that you're willing to accept the offer. You don't really care who they are, where they live or how they're going to drive it once you have the money and they have the keys.

I think what complicates the sale of the Lions is how much Braley loves and respects both the CFL and the Lions. There's probably another Skalbania, Pezim, Schwarz or Chen out there he could sell the Lions to tomorrow. I think he sincerely wants to sell to the prospective ownership group that he believes truly has the same passion for the club and league and is also local . When I read the second quote I read less into the first part and more into the second part. While he hasn't decided to sell that he continues to talk with 3-4 groups tells me he's in the process. I think the decision to sell will happen the instant he concludes that yes this one group out of the four (maybe there are others yet to surface) is the right one to be the next owners of the Lions.
Sometimes if you love something, you have to let it go and that is what Braley needs to do. The Lions have been stagnating for years now under him and his ownership is slowly strangling the life out of the franchise. This can't afford to go on much longer.
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Jim Mullin
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Given the season ticket number I was told, this operation is far closer being worth $2-million than $20-million.

Braley has struggled with this operation since Bob passed away. Whichever group makes an ego and passion play on buying this better have deep pockets because it will take millions and years to rebuild it back to the level where it should be at.

The team already starts in a significant hole:

- Does not control revenue from secondary events in facility.
- Does not accrue revenue from concessions.
- Does not accrue revenue from parking.
- Is limited to the number of discounted tickets through deal with building.
- Pays rent.

The biggest mistake (and I said it at the time) was retrofitting that stadium in that location. Unless the sugar plum fairy drops a 140-million dollar bare bones facility on the other side of the bridge, this team will continue to struggle in an urban setting where polarized economics have driven potential customers far away from the downtown core. Good football teams reflect solid communities, and Vancouver - at least the downtown - does not have that value anymore.

The unconventional mind might seek a Milwaukee-Green Bay type of solution here. Given another Commonwealth Games bid for Victoria is in the offing, a 22,000 stadium with some atmosphere could be a good landing spot for four of the 10 games. Given the lack of loyalty, but a chance to rebrand six events in the "event city", perhaps that's a way to concentrate crowds at BC Place. Maybe I'm grasping at straws, but the status quo doesn't look like it's set up for success any day too soon.

I know David Sidoo from my university travels, and there is no questioning his passion for the game. If he ran shotgun with Aquilini, it's probably the best chance the team has for any kind of future in this market.
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The move into renovated BC Place really hid the problems that the Lions had marketing/business wise ever since bob died. The crowds were small at tempire. Lifting all the blackouts really started to impact numbers. As people outside Vancouver/Burnaby stopped coming to games due to traffic, etc. When they moved into BC Place again their SSH number went to 26000, and all the marketing people thought they were doing a great job.

On the sale of the club, Braley has already made alot of money off the move into BC Place.
- $7m 2011 grey cup and $10m from 2014 grey cup (massive jump in tix prices -- despite not being a sellout -- is largest gate in canadian history).
- Plus over $2M per year on regular season in first two season in BC place due to large crowds and big increase in ticket prices in premium sections.

Thats not replicatable.

Still, even with poor ticket numbers last year they only lost $300k .. which is basically breakeven on a $20M revenue operation. But the days off $2m+ profits are gone.

Only growth area for the club is trying to get a bigger TV $$$ out of TSN. right now the league gets $40-$45M a year. I note that TSN recently paid $30M to senators for 60ish games that do around 100k per game. CFL games do 600k+ for 84 games plus Grey cup game. Ordinarily that would result in a big increase for the league. But you have huge grey cloud over the entire cable tv industry with changing technology.
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Jim Mullin wrote:
Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:46 pm
Given the season ticket number I was told, this operation is far closer being worth $2-million than $20-million.

Braley has run this operation over a cliff since Bob passed away. Whichever group makes an ego and passion play on buying this better have deep pockets because it will take millions and years to rebuild it back to the level where it should be at.

The team already starts in a significant hole:

- Does not control revenue from secondary events in facility.
- Does not accrue revenue from concessions.
- Does not accrue revenue from parking.
- Is limited to the number of discounted tickets through deal with building.
- Pays rent.

The biggest mistake (and I said it at the time) was retrofitting that stadium in that location. Unless the sugar plum fairy drops a 40-million dollar bare bones facility on the other side of the bridge, this team will continue to struggle in an urban setting where polarized economics have driven potential customers far away from the downtown core. Good football teams reflect solid communities, and Vancouver - at least the downtown - does not have that value anymore.
they would have had all these issues if a new stadium would have been built at bridgeview/scott road, Tsawwassen mills, or where the new hospital is going downtown.
Pavco would be the landlord and control all secondary revenue streams

Today bare bones would be $150M (timbit field)

Whitecaps have to same issues but are losing more than $5m a year.

Unless the caps/lions get together and put in $75M a piece thats not going to change. but they both have 20 years left on their leases.
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SammyGreene
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Bleak picture guys. Let's not forget to give credit to Braley's sidekick Skulsky as well. Helped run the Sun/Province into the ground before turning his attention to the Lions. Season tickets now hovering around 10,000 I imagine.
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