Harris Won't Be Back...Pretty Much Official

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LakeLions
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Very good comments, CardiacKid, and I agree wholeheartedly.

We've spent the offseason going on about the team's need to create a buzz and stay relevant...and yet again, one of the most recognizable names is gone. See ya. Thanks for nothing.
Geroy, Angus Reid, Andrew Harris in recent years. Obviously Angus retired on his own terms.

I get that Wally has a reputation for "knowing when to cut ties", but I'm starting to question when it comes at the expense of familiar faces who can still contribute a tad.
Is there not something to keeping those guys around? I still think trading Geroy was a shocker that the casual fanbase hasn't wrapped its head around.

It's great that Jonathon Jennings is here. The casual fan doesn't know him. They know Lulay and Andrew Harris. Now one is gone.

I'm rambling a bit - but I guess I just don't have the confidence that Wally will find a guy to replace Harris. Simple as that. And that hurts the Lions in many ways
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WestCoastJoe
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CardiacKid wrote:The question of how much money is a guy worth as well as attitude has come up in regards to Harris' leaving.

Some have mentioned that Harris was too selfish and had a bad attitude that could have infected the dressing room. And yet we have the Manny Show back in town with his propensity to create copy for the opposing team's bulletin boards and completely uninspired play in the first half of the year. Yes, he turned it around and when he is on, Manny is great to watch. But what are we going to get next year? Jeckyll or Hyde?

As for $, what is too much to pay a quality player? If the paradigm for running backs always going to be "a dime a dozen for International running backs" then why not simply sign some kid from Division II or lower for 2 years at the entry level salary and then jettison him when his contract is due for the next rookie. And keep that cycle going in perpetuity? The club will save a lot of money that way....

Some offensive linemen are making $300,000 a year and yet a guy who puts points on the board is not worth 2 thirds of that amount? And while Harris is older and nicked up (show me a starting running back from the past 5 years who hasn't spent time on the doctor's table), I don't think a 2 year extension would have been at all crazy.

If this team had a personnel guy with the ability of a Chris Jones or a John Murphy, I would be less inclined to be pissed as I would have faith the team could find that diamond in the rough. But as it stands, I don't the Leo's brain trust has any idea of what direction they wish to go in regards to replacing Harris. Maybe Rainey? Well by all accounts he is out the door as well. So what about mini-Shaq? Well, with Harris gone why keep a sophomore National who was probably only here to keep the ratio should Harris go down.

No when I hear the Riders are going to have 20 scouts on the payroll this year, I fear the Lions are going to get lost in their wash as the good ship Riderville sails the ocean of US and Canadian university plucking up the stars of tomorrow.

How many scouts do the Lions' have? Bet it isn't anywhere near 20.

Which leads to my point (thank God some of you are saying)! I don't think the Leo's are in a position to jettison quality players when they have shown a decided history of hit and miss in finding replacements. Until the Leo's make a concerted effort to bolster their scouting staff and infrastructure and hire guys whose forte is personnel (like Chris Jones who, while a good coach, I think his true strength is his personnel chops) then at least make an effort to retain the quality you have.

Anyhow my two bits as an Andrew Harris fan. I will miss the guy.
Well said, CardiacKid.
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Blitz
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There are a lot of factors in the discussion of Andrew Harris including salary, age, non-import status, backup tailback, attitude, etc.

I don't believe salary is the main factor. Lulay will be signing for a lot less money and we could afford Harris at $200,000 and he probably would have signed for less. His age at 29 is a factor but we could have signed him for two years and an option. Harris, as a non-import is an asset that positively impacts the ratio. We have been able to start an additional import offensive lineman or an additional import receiver with Harris as a starter - its been a tremendous advantage. We have always had a backup tailback on the roster, should Hrris get hurt. If an import tailback gets hurt, the situation is the same.

While a number of factors may be at play, I really believe that the main reason that Buono does not want Harris back is quite simply he has not liked his criticism of the offensive system we have used (through three different offensive coordinators) or specific play calling in some games. He has expressed that dissatisfaction on occasion publicly and he has also shown it by body language at specific times.

That was obviously not going to go over well with Wally, who I believe thinks that Harris is a negative, in terms of team chemistry. I don't believe Buono would want Harris back if Harris offered to play for $100,000 a season, if Harris was 26 years old, or even if we had a very good Canadian backup tailback.

Buono, I believe, basically wants Harris out of B.C. Its as simple as that.
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DanoT
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I think the Lions are making a big mistake letting Harris go. The Lions should have used him as a RB/pass receiver and also have a INT RB/FB who would do most of the blocking. Kinda like when they had both Logan and Harris in the backfield only with a bigger FB type than Logan. Then you don't need a back up Nat RB so if Harris were to get injured, then you replace him with a NAT slot back and still have a INT RB.
LakeLions
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I think it's hilarious that Paris Jackson can have a spot til he's barely able to move almost solely because he's Canadian, but Andrew Harris can't stay.
To me, as Blitz said, this is all about Wally imposing his will.

I need to get off this site, I'm getting really steamed up here ;)
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I agree with Blitz. This is all about Wally getting rid of someone he doesn't like.

Wally is well past his best before date himself IMO.
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One nitpicky thing Blitz. Option years only apply to rookie contracts. Veteran contracts cannot have an option year attached.
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TheLionKing
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Solar Max wrote:I agree with Blitz. This is all about Wally getting rid of someone he doesn't like.

Wally is well past his best before date himself IMO.
X2
leo4life
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X3 on Bouno past his best before date.Also he said the team is going in a new direction yet he brings back Dorazio,retains a struggling DC and Jones back as OC.Wally wont be able to spin another bad season here. :dizzy:
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LakeLions wrote:I think it's hilarious that Paris Jackson can have a spot til he's barely able to move almost solely because he's Canadian, but Andrew Harris can't stay.
To me, as Blitz said, this is all about Wally imposing his will.

I need to get off this site, I'm getting really steamed up here ;)
Paris Jackson had a spot on the roster but spent much of his time stapled to the bench (watching a number of NAT and INT receivers out on the field who had half his ability). Harris at least was used regularly.
JohnnyMusso
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The Lions need to create a splash. Yes, maybe their season tickets is up a bit, but they lost so many fans, that they are still probably way down. Losing Harris I think hurts ticket sales. They need to sign Ted Laurent, the best free agent available, who is a difference maker and could end up in the NFL one day. Will they sign him? I doubt it. Personally, I don't think any of the Top 10 free agents are coming in. The Lions likely will finish last and they are more attractive places to go if you have a choice. Buono will try and I hope he lands one or two good players.
Blitz
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Solar Max wrote:I agree with Blitz. This is all about Wally getting rid of someone he doesn't like.
Wally is well past his best before date himself IMO.
When Andrew Harris was outspoken about our offensive play calling or his utilization in our offence some Lionbackers cheered. I wasn't one of them. I liked Harris. I liked his story, his enthusiasm, his National status, and especially his dual threat as both a runner and receiver. But I believed Harris was not smart in being outspoken, especially with a guy like Wally here. I anticipated the very strong possibility that Buono would want Harris gone at the earliest opportunity.

Wally's coaching staff reflects who he is. It reflects his rigid personality and his approach. Washington is back and Dorazio has returned. Khari Jones will run the old Calgary spread offence, as he did in 2014, as has every offensive coordinator under Wally from the time he has been a Head Coach/GM or GM.

Wally is back as HC because he couldn't let go. He really has been the HC since he retired, in many way, exerting tremendous influence. Buono looked at this team towards the end of last season and decided the time was right for him to take over. The key was Jennings. Buono sees a quarterback, as we all do, who can lead this team to success. Arsenault, Hawkins give us dangerous receiving threats. On defense, our linebackers are excellent, our defensive backfield is solid, and we have shored up the defensive tackle position very well. We were 7-11 last season but a lot of key pieces were put in place for future success.

Tedford is owed thanks for choosing and developing Jennings and for his offensive line decisions in 2015. Wally's plan for 2015 to have four starting Nationals on the offensive line, with Norman, Fabian, Valli, and Steward was ill advised. Wally's concept of moving Westerman outside and using an undersized rookie defensive end as a tackle was eventually abandoned by Tedford. Wally's only free agent signing in the off-season prior to 2015 was a disaster at the safety position. Tedford brought in Hawkins and the decision to use Hawkins outside and move Arsenault inside was a key offensive move. Tedford set the stage for us to have success this season.

Jennings is a quarterback who can execute from the spread. He goes through his progessions quickly, has a quick release, and an accurate arm. But Buono better hope that Dorazio (who had the worst record in the CFL for giving up quarterback sacks in his previous tenure in B.C.) will protect Jennings. Because without Jennings playing or playing well, Wally's plan to be the Savior will blow up in smoke.

Buono, I believe, saw that our Leos had the potential to have a very good 2016 season and decided to ride in on his white horse as the 'Savior'. But he better hope that we can protect Jennings from injury and that Jennings continues to play well or Wally's grandiosity 'ride to the rescue' may not be be in the cards.

Back to Andrew Harris. Whomever replaces him had better be either a) a good pass receiver or b) a good pass blocker or our offence will take a step back. Defenses paid special attention to Harris or spied him and that opened things up. That fact has not been discussed so far.
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I disagree that this is all about Wally reacting to Harris' media outbursts, though I agree that it is a factor. The bigger factor is the cost/benefit analysis relative to on field performance.

The difference between Harris' contract demands (200,000?), and what we would pay a decent international (100,000?) is much greater than it would be for a starting db, safety, ol, etc.. It's a lot of money for the passport factor. Also, Harris' performance as a rusher is average, definitely below the top rushers over the past few seasons, ol struggles notwithstanding. His pass catching ability is above average, but he complains to the media when put in a blocking or supporting role. He's not over the hill yet, but has carried the ball a lot over his career, and may be more susceptible to injury. In addition, without a viable backup national rb, any injury causes ripples throughout the team. It's not as simple as just subbing in a backup with a small dropoff in performance. The whole structure of the team needs to be rethought.

Add in Harris' negotiating in the media, publically criticising coaches, and me-first goals, and Wally's decision becomes very understandable.
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Hambone
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maxlion wrote:I disagree that this is all about Wally reacting to Harris' media outbursts, though I agree that it is a factor. The bigger factor is the cost/benefit analysis relative to on field performance.

The difference between Harris' contract demands (200,000?), and what we would pay a decent international (100,000?) is much greater than it would be for a starting db, safety, ol, etc.. It's a lot of money for the passport factor. Also, Harris' performance as a rusher is average, definitely below the top rushers over the past few seasons, ol struggles notwithstanding. His pass catching ability is above average, but he complains to the media when put in a blocking or supporting role. He's not over the hill yet, but has carried the ball a lot over his career, and may be more susceptible to injury. In addition, without a viable backup national rb, any injury causes ripples throughout the team. It's not as simple as just subbing in a backup with a small dropoff in performance. The whole structure of the team needs to be rethought.

Add in Harris' negotiating in the media, publically criticising coaches, and me-first goals, and Wally's decision becomes very understandable.
That's my thinking too. This is all about the economics of working in a cap system, determining the role of the player and how that and the money fit. You have to get full value from the salary. I don't know how accurate the $200K demand rumour is but that sort of money for a tailback is only justifiable if the offence is going to be built around that player. After watching Jennings last year and seeing his strengths and the style of game he plays I don't see the role of the running back being the focal point of the offence. To me if the tailback is going to be the focal point that means he's getting 15+ carries per game plus another 3 or 4 receptions out of the backfield. I don't think Harris has that sort of durability. He does well when he gets the ball in space but struggles when being asked to go between the tackles to get the really tough yards when the defence knows that's what's needed. Guys like Cornish, Sheets and Pringle seemed to be able to power through when a hole isn't there. Harris not so much.

I don't see Harris as being able to provide the sort of value that is absolutely necessary to pay in the $180K-$200K range Two very basic factors (in my opinion) jump out at me. 1) At this stage of his career (29 this year, 30 in 2017) Harris is not the sort of physical beast runner to excel as the offensive focal point over an 18 game schedule. 2) With Jennings at the helm this offence is going to change to be less reliant on a tailback to carry the team. From the combination of the two I'm saying Harris wouldn't deliver the sort of value that salary would command partly because I don't think he's the type of runner to do it and partly because I think the offensive scheme won't put him in the position to do it.
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Hambone wrote:
maxlion wrote:I disagree that this is all about Wally reacting to Harris' media outbursts, though I agree that it is a factor. The bigger factor is the cost/benefit analysis relative to on field performance.

The difference between Harris' contract demands (200,000?), and what we would pay a decent international (100,000?) is much greater than it would be for a starting db, safety, ol, etc.. It's a lot of money for the passport factor. Also, Harris' performance as a rusher is average, definitely below the top rushers over the past few seasons, ol struggles notwithstanding. His pass catching ability is above average, but he complains to the media when put in a blocking or supporting role. He's not over the hill yet, but has carried the ball a lot over his career, and may be more susceptible to injury. In addition, without a viable backup national rb, any injury causes ripples throughout the team. It's not as simple as just subbing in a backup with a small dropoff in performance. The whole structure of the team needs to be rethought.

Add in Harris' negotiating in the media, publically criticising coaches, and me-first goals, and Wally's decision becomes very understandable.
That's my thinking too. This is all about the economics of working in a cap system, determining the role of the player and how that and the money fit. You have to get full value from the salary. I don't know how accurate the $200K demand rumour is but that sort of money for a tailback is only justifiable if the offence is going to be built around that player. After watching Jennings last year and seeing his strengths and the style of game he plays I don't see the role of the running back being the focal point of the offence. To me if the tailback is going to be the focal point that means he's getting 15+ carries per game plus another 3 or 4 receptions out of the backfield. I don't think Harris has that sort of durability. He does well when he gets the ball in space but struggles when being asked to go between the tackles to get the really tough yards when the defence knows that's what's needed. Guys like Cornish, Sheets and Pringle seemed to be able to power through when a hole isn't there. Harris not so much.

I don't see Harris as being able to provide the sort of value that is absolutely necessary to pay in the $180K-$200K range Two very basic factors (in my opinion) jump out at me. 1) At this stage of his career (29 this year, 30 in 2017) Harris is not the sort of physical beast runner to excel as the offensive focal point over an 18 game schedule. 2) With Jennings at the helm this offence is going to change to be less reliant on a tailback to carry the team. From the combination of the two I'm saying Harris wouldn't deliver the sort of value that salary would command partly because I don't think he's the type of runner to do it and partly because I think the offensive scheme won't put him in the position to do it.
I agree too. I would have no problem with paying Harris $200,000 to $220,000 a year. Manny Arceneaux is in that range. I just think other teams are more willing to pay Harris what he's worth. Harris was the focal point of the offence in the past with Lulay at QB. Arceneaux is the focus now with Jennings at QB. A cheaper international RB who can pick up tough yards inside and help protect the QB is more in line with the Lions' needs in 2016. Ideally, some of Harris's salary can be redirected to Chris Rainey as a kick returner and backup RB who can get into space and make people miss.
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