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Toppy Vann
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:52 pm

Religious person or not, professionally Wally is one cold, cold back stabber. He has consistently re-nigged on promises, coldly cut players without even a word of thanks, and has always asked "well paid" players to take salary cuts IMMEDIATELY if their play has fallen off, except Wally doesn't apply that same principle to himself or his friends. He has played "favourites" throughout his career with coaches, even to the extent of firing guys that have succeeded simply because they don't "do things" the way Wally wants, to the detriment of the franchise. Anyone could see that Kelly Bates was a guy with promise, and "out of position" he really helped this team as both our RB Coach and our Draft Coordinator...where is he now? Again, where is Geroy? Where is Jason Clermont? Where is Korey Banks? Where is Brent Johnson? This is how you create a family, and families learn to overcome obstacles, stick together, and get better. The BC Lions football club is ANYTHING but a family, it has become the private circus for a very clouded, private individual!

The culture of mediocrity seems to go hand in hand with the culture of religiosity with this outfit right down to their strengths coach - Boyko. I'm for separation of church and football (workplace).

https://twitter.com/chrisboyko -

I have worked with many very religious people but they didn't bring it to the workplace where those of other faiths also worked nor did it affect their judgment on people.

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WestCoastJoe
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:31 pm

I have been reluctant to comment on religion here.

Separation of church and state. JF Kennedy spoke about it.

Should be separate from work also methinks.

The Cowboys under Tom Landry had that reputation. I gather a lot of football teams have a strong affiliation with religion, particularly Christianity.

Vince Lombardi was a devout Catholic, but I think he kept religion separate from his football work.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

Dusty
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:40 pm

Blitz wrote:
Blitz wrote:
What a horrible performance....this is a ship that is badly listing, is taking on more and more water, and the deck chairs are sliding into the deep blue sea.
Its not the losing that is getting to me. Its how we are losing - with bland offensive and defensive systems and with little team spirit. It's very sad to watch.

Well said Blitz. All your points are well taken, but to me, it is the "how" we are losing that is the most upsetting. I was prepared for a poor season, but I thought that there would be some gradual improved play as new systems or schemes were introduced and the younger players got some experience under their feet. What is upsetting is that we are getting worse.... I am not sure that there is any team that we can beat, and if I have that feeling, then the players likely have the same feeling which is showing up in their attitude on the sidelines.... VERY disturbing......

I understand the thinking in bringing an OC with recent CFL experience when the HC is new to the CFL. What I do not get is sticking to an outdated system that IS NOT WORKING. A short week is hardly the time to make drastic changes, but nonetheless, as a long time STH, I can live with change..... even if the losing continues... I do have faith in Tedford, but not Cortez and Washington to make the changes needed. Change now, or after the season, but change needs to happen... The "HOW" we are playing is not acceptable.
The big question is "Would Tedford be allowed to jettison Cortez (an old Wally offensive coordinator who runs the old Calgary spread offence), Mark Washington, and Chuck McMann?

I'm not happy with Tedford but until he can actually run what he wants to run (eg: a pro style offensive scheme and an aggressive defence) we will never know what he can and cannot do as a Head Coach. I believe he deserves that opportunity first but it wouldn't surprise me to see Wally return to the sidelines.
I agree with you. I think that if Tedford is serious about this job and the BC Lions/CFL as a career, he will have to get the coaching staff of his choosing. He got Malone and Cortez as a package and likely jumped because of the familiarity of Cortez with the recent CFL and his own history with him. But if Tedford is going to be here long-term, he will need to put his team of like-minded coaches, chosen by himself.... Otherwise, he may view this job as a "One and Done" gig... I hope not, but it is possible..

Blitz
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:04 pm

I agree with you. I think that if Tedford is serious about this job and the BC Lions/CFL as a career, he will have to get the coaching staff of his choosing. He got Malone and Cortez as a package and likely jumped because of the familiarity of Cortez with the recent CFL and his own history with him. But if Tedford is going to be here long-term, he will need to put his team of like-minded coaches, chosen by himself.... Otherwise, he may view this job as a "One and Done" gig... I hope not, but it is possible..
Dusty
He certainly does need like minded assistant coaches Dusty. This is not working.

One certainly has to ask why Washington went with an undersized Roh for 8 games while watching us being blown out with inside runs. Minter has really shored up the inside.

But Roh did lead us in quarterback sacks while playing an unfamiliar position. So it would make sense that Roh be given a chance to play defensive end, his natural position. But no, we pine him and continue with Smith and Bazzie alternating at defensive end. In another 8 games or so, we`ll probably see Roh get a chance at defensive end but I wouldn`t bet on it, the way things have been so far.

If Tedford wanted an H Back offence he should have insisted on one. Its mind boggling to see Tedford allow this...his knowledge of offence is just too high to be allowing this kind of stuff. You don`t win an OC hiring in the NFL, without impressive credentials.

But Tedford better do something quick. He coached up special teams last week. This week it had better be offence. I kinda feel sorry for him in some ways...he just doesn`t have the coaches he needs. Malone is very good and so is Johnny Holland. Robin Ross coached a couple of seasons at Oakland and knows his football and is probably getting up to speed with the CFL. But the rest of our coaching staff should be given opportunities to ply their so called skill sets elsewhere.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)

VictoriaFan
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:34 pm

Tim Brown was /is very religious and he got bounced. Dante Marsh as well

TheLionKing
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:10 pm

What's this talk about Buono and religion ? I have never heard or read anywhere with the exception of this forum that coaches are hired and kept on because of their religious leanings.

johnnycanuck
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:14 pm

First time poster, but a frustrated long time season ticket holder. Read this thread, agree with some comments, not with others. Here's my take:

1) The criticism of the defence is overstated. I thought the d had a great game overall, but when you're on the field for 42 minutes you're not going to stop anyone in the final 20 minutes of the game. In a perverse way, Solly's injury isn't the worst thing ... allows Biggie to move back to his natural middle slot and gives them the flexibility to rotate Hoffman-Ellis, Johnson, and Lokombo through the outside positions and that was pretty effective.

2) The criticism of the offence is understated. It's a heaping pile of ____. Lulay's shoulder is still not 100% and it was foolish to go into the season completely reliant upon it. He cannot hit the deep throw and the only Cortez's lame offence works is if the deep ball is a viable threat. The deep ball and Kory Sheets set up everything that the Riders did two years ago to win the Cup. If Lulay's shoulder was good and if they had a good deep threat receiver (eg. Hawkins) all season then this offence might have worked. However, they had to know the state of Lulay's shoulder all the way along and to have not planned accordingly is pure negligence.

3) Since Lulay hurt his shoulder against Montreal, Wally has done nothing to address the QB issue. Ricky Ray down? Trevor Harris. Mike Reilly down? Matt NIchols and when he proved to average, they had James Franklin. If Bo Levi goes down? Drew Tate. If something happens to Collaros, bet you Kent Austin already knows that Jeff Matthews can carry the freight. The bottom line is that this league requires that you have a QB option that can win games. The Lions haven't had that since Reilly left town (Buck's three games back don't count). That's on Wally.

4) Everyone can see that Manny doesn't care. Cut him. Everyone can see that Cortez is past his best before date. Fire him. Everyone can see that Andrew Harris is the only offensive player who cares, and he's still not got a contract offer for 2016? Inexcusable.

5) I see little hope for this year as is. But, we should see if Jennings or McGhee have the goods and not bother with more of John Beck. In any case, the Lions can expect me not to renew my tickets for next season unless they do something to address the OC position (I know asking for DD or Tommy Condell isn't going to happen, but I'd even take Dinwiddie at this point) and they throw serious starter money at Drew Tate or Trevor Harris to get them here (they're both going to be UFA's this offseason).

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WestCoastJoe
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:19 pm

Good post, johnnycanuck. Keep 'em coming.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.

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Toppy Vann
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:38 pm

TheLionKing wrote:What's this talk about Buono and religion ? I have never heard or read anywhere with the exception of this forum that coaches are hired and kept on because of their religious leanings.
I didn't ever say or suggest that. Not sure others are saying that either - no post I read here has EVER said that.

Back around 2005 or thereabouts there were some rumblings about the topic (and in the print media) but no one has ever gone so far as to suggest that a coach or player is chosen or let go for reasons like not joining Bible study etc. One player writing in The Sun mentioned it "What would Jesus do?" wristbands while these same players decried our socialized medicine as they saw it. That was in reply to Jason Jimenez's article.

I just think that there is something wrong in the culture of the organization.

My preference is that any team or organization not align their brand and leaders, coaches and players with religion as it never a good thing as not all internally would agree or their faiths are different. The Lions take a different view as you was seen in the BC Catholic:

http://www.bccatholic.ca/sports/3278-bc ... aith-night

Vic Rapp used to attend church socials as my parents got a chance to meet him at one but that was not a media event but just part of his personal faith and a bit of getting his BC Lions known.

Post game prayer circles with opponents. I'm not a huge fan of that either - but that is a CFL thing.

I saw this article based on this phrase that represents my view: You don't go to work to practise your religion.
http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/column ... r-religion

On a side note with Kim Davis there is a civil liberties lawyer in the USA who is not religious noting that under US civil rights laws, her employer is obligated to accommodate her (despite her 4 marriages to 3 husbands and two kids out of wedlock ...lol).

Remember this guy who I think is with the Als now or went there?
Reserve linebacker Yaser Elqutub prays to play for Lions


By Mike Beamish, The Vancouver Sun September 4, 2013
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Reserv ... story.html
Last edited by Toppy Vann on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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pennw
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:02 pm

TheLionKing wrote:What's this talk about Buono and religion ? I have never heard or read anywhere with the exception of this forum that coaches are hired and kept on because of their religious leanings.
I agree , this does keep coming up on this board with zero evidence to support it . It does not fit a pattern whatsoever , with firings and hirings of religious guys like Chap and hirings of non-religious coaches like Stubler only to be let go again also, ditto the christian coach Dave Ritchie . Only in the minds of certain posters here and it does come across as a prejudice in some . It would nice if it could just be dropped.If it's not intended that way , then why bring it up at all ??

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pennw
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:11 pm

Toppy Vann wrote: Post game prayer circles with opponents. I'm not a huge fan of that either - but that is a CFL thing.
Ya it happens all over the place , it is known as religious freedom , a value western culture and the free world have been known for . It's not allowed in some places like say North Korea , Communist China or the former USSR.

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Solar Max
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:51 pm

Blitz wrote:
Solar Max wrote:I think it goes deeper than OC and DC.

Wally still calls the shots on the field imo, and it cost Benevides. Now it's Tedford's turn, and unless Wally lets Tedford's bring in his own people (goodbye Chuck McMann) then nothing changes with Wally calling the shots.

Wally has been surpassed by modern coaches like Jones, Milanovitch, Austin. Campbell. There is no room for " playing not to lose " 1995 coaching imo. Either be the GM only or step aside completely. It's time.
I couldn't agree more Solar Max.

Our Leos team had continued to slide from our Grey Cup victory in 2006 and got off to another terrible start in 2011. But desperate, Wally allowed Chap to do more of his own thing rather than force him to stick with the old Calgary playbook and allowed Benevedes to go with a rotation on the defensive line - those changes plus the trade for Arland Bruce and the insertion of Harris, who had languished on the bench under Wally but got a chance due to an injury, got things changed around. Of course we had a lot of talent too but it was being misused. But Wally was viewed as genius again as he retired from the sidelines.

But Buono valued control over wisdom. He hired Benevedes, who had been 'mentored' by Buono for years for the top job. It was obviously a terrible job of mentoring. But with two experienced coordinators in Stubler and Chap, good player leadership, and good talent, our Leos played very well in 2012. But Benevedes was losing the team and should have been jettisoned at the end of 2013. Instead Wally chose to make Stubler and Chap the scapegoats. Instead we got Mark Washington and Khari Jones.

During this off-season, Buono thought he had gotten lucky by hiring Tedford. Tedford had experience in running a big program, had developed many future NFL stars, had a rep as a quarterback coaching geru, and he had also been hired as an offensive coordinator for an NFL team - and NFL teams do a lot of due diligence before hiring an offensive coordinator - they have a wide array of candidates.

But Buono saddled Tedford with a roster devoid of player leadership and had weaknesses in a number of positions that were not addressed in the off-season.

I#m guessing that Tedford assumed the CFL would be a less stressful and less challenging gig. Kown for working horrendous hours, Tedford thought he could hand over the reins of the offence to experienced coordinator George Cortez and continue letting Mark Washington ('a brilliant guy according to Buono) run the defense while super special teams coordinator Chuck McMann ran special teams. Tedford's role would be to guide the team with his experience, do some quarterback whispering, and lean on Wally's sage advice from time to time.

Well, it hasn't worked out that way. Cortez has been stuck in his boring spread offence for a long time and has never adapted, Washington is a Wally clone who thinks you can play defense like it was played in the 1990's, and Chuck McMann has always been mediocre.

Tedford has had an awakening. The CFL is not the CFL that Tedford coached in the 1990's. The spread offence in Calgary in those days was very innovative and defenses were slow to adjust. Today's CFL, as WCJ and others point out, has a lot of very good coaches and its sophisticated. Defenses know how to stop a simple spread offence. Defenses don't sit back and play passive zone defense like they did in the 90's.

We have an antiquated GM who can't sign free agents or bring in talent to key positions and whose fingerprints are still all over this team from assistant coaches to players. We have an antiquated offensive coordinator running an antiquated offensive scheme and a young defensive coordinator who runs an antiquated defensive scheme. We have a special teams coach who constantly looks confused.

We don't have an impact rush end or an impact offensive receiver. We have a starting quarterback with a history of shoulder problerms and a 34 year old backup. We are not developing quarterbacks anymore, as we did in the days of Chapdelaine. We don't have player leaders who can help set a winning attitude and help create team chemistry.

We are losing fans in droves. Buono is past his due date. Complacency has set in and he is living off his rep while still wanting to command and control the ship. But the ship is hitting icebergs and he won't change course - too set in his ways. He has let vet coaches go and let vet players go without considering the ramifications. Its like he thinks he can do anything and all will be fine because he is Wally Buono. That kind of thinking only leads to disaster.
This.

Even worse, Wally no longer has Obie or Roy Shivers to find talent for him.

Wally must go for the good of the franchise.

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KnowItAll
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Mon Sep 14, 2015 11:37 pm

Toppy Vann wrote:
I saw this article based on this phrase that represents my view: You don't go to work to practise your religion.
http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/column ... r-religion
Christianity is life to be lived everywhere you go and in every thing you do. Being a Christian is a full time occupation. For the Christian, it does or should supercede every thing else. It should be part of everything you do all the time.
Every day that passes is one you can't get back

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Toppy Vann
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Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:43 am

KnowItAll wrote:
Toppy Vann wrote:
I saw this article based on this phrase that represents my view: You don't go to work to practise your religion.
http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/column ... r-religion
Christianity is life to be lived everywhere you go and in every thing you do. Being a Christian is a full time occupation. For the Christian, it does or should supercede every thing else. It should be part of everything you do all the time.
I might have just avoided my comment on the things I 'm not a fan of ...lol... I don't like orchestrated celebrations either.

It's unique to football as I can't think of any game where it exists as part of a team.

But clearly religion is NOT one of the BC Lions problems unless we can pray for a change in the Cortez mind set - ie. that his playbook gets stolen as he sleeps and replaced by a book with misdirection, screens, fly sweeps, dual backs to get Harris unkeyed on and if the Good Lord is listening - an enlightening in the Lions organization that more of what the fans are seeing now isn't going to sell.

I honestly think that getting a future QB developed is a must and maybe that will force them to run plays to strengths.

By the way has Harris re-surfaced? I'd like to see him used with another back at the same time to avoid the keys on him.

Just think though -----the record could be the Riders - some awesome offensive numbers and just 1 win. Lions have 4.

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Solar Max
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Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:39 am

Interesting seeing discourse on what alis the BC Lions, but the opponent Sunday was not the one many fans feel they are. Ottawa has lost 4 games in 2015, to Calgary and Edmonton. Those are two excellent football clubs. The RedBlacks are vastly improved, and were a tough opponent. Had they converted some of those FGs into TDs, or had Chris Williams not dropped three passes, it could have been far worse.

It's bad, yes, but Ottawa came to play, and Wally's outdated coaching philosophy cannot match modern game planning IMO.

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