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Sir Purrcival
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Some of this thread sounds very familiar to the Vic Rapp days but at some level I am having some trouble with it. Wally may be a religious guy, some of the people he hired may be religious too but I get the impression that there is always a fairly decent representation of that in the realm of football. Every time someone is hurt, one of the first things you see is the "down on one knee" group praying. You also see it after games. It is also pretty normal in most areas of business for those who do the hiring to pick candidates that they get along with, who may have things in common with, who tend to see things the same way. It doesn't necessarily mean that they are selectively hiring based on that trait. It is just normal human behaviour. In the Vic Rapp era, I remember that it devolved to the point of where guys who weren't especially religious were going to church on Sunday's in hopes of securing a spot on the team. I have never heard anything like that in all the Buono years. I am more inclined to the idea that todays football minds are more intellectual about the sport. The Wally method is perhaps getting a little passe and doesn't resonate as well with players of today's vintage. The days of blind obedience and sacrifice for the team have been tempered somewhat. Players and teams are by necessity having to look towards the part of life "after playing". They have had to learn that what comes twenty years from now does matter. Players and coaches also have to understand each other. Benevides is a younger guy but he was schooled by Buono and it seems that maybe the Buono era mentality just doesn't play all that well to the player of today.
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WestCoastJoe
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Mark W is doing pretty well, it seems to me. His defence is ranked quite high in the different categories. Vulnerable at times. Lacking pass pressure at times. But pretty effective overall.

Khari is struggling with the offence. Many offences are struggling at this time. Some of our stuggle must be attributed to his O Line coach, Dan Dorazio, it seems to me. Both run blocking and pass protection do not seem to be anywhere near the upper echelon of the league. Lots of reasons and excuses can be found, of course. But this O Line situation has gone on for a long time. Kevin Glenn seems very limited in what he looks for in the passing game. No doubt he feels pass rush pressure. But it seems inexcusable that we do not seem to plan adequately to include the wideouts in the offence. It seems to me we pretty much ran Andrew Harris into the ground, as he pounded against walls of gang tackling defenders, grinding him down. He was nicked and limping earlier this year. Serious injury seemed inevitable. Our offence without Harris, without Burnham, without effective use of the wideouts, is cause for great concern.

Now hope for the team and for the fans, is being held out for the return of Travis Lulay. His career is already in jeopardy. He is forgoing surgery on his shoulder to continue his rehab. It is his decision, with all the advice available to him. But it almost smacks of desperation. Will he not be snowed under by a swarm of pass rushers once again?

There was a lot of fan unrest by the end of last year. Benny, with the support of Wally, wanted to make some key changes. A big gamble. Our top two choices for OC turned us down. Khari was there with a relatively slim resume, and with very little experience as OC. With a new OC and DC, it certainly makes this Benny's team.

So here we are with 5 games left. All is still possible. But based on what we have seen so far, one would have to say that our chances of success in the playoffs do not look all that promising. We are pretty much middle of the road in our record, and in our overall performance. But ya never know ... Miracles do happen on the football field. 2011 kind of seems like that. An amazing turnaround and ultimate success. One has hopes ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
dupsdell1
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WestCoastJoe wrote:Mark W is doing pretty well, it seems to me. His defence is ranked quite high in the different categories. Vulnerable at times. Lacking pass pressure at times. But pretty effective overall.

Khari is struggling with the offence. Many offences are struggling at this time. Some of our stuggle must be attributed to his O Line coach, Dan Dorazio, it seems to me. Both run blocking and pass protection do not seem to be anywhere near the upper echelon of the league. Lots of reasons and excuses can be found, of course. But this O Line situation has gone on for a long time. Kevin Glenn seems very limited in what he looks for in the passing game. No doubt he feels pass rush pressure. But it seems inexcusable that we do not seem to plan adequately to include the wideouts in the offence. It seems to me we pretty much ran Andrew Harris into the ground, as he pounded against walls of gang tackling defenders, grinding him down. He was nicked and limping earlier this year. Serious injury seemed inevitable. Our offence without Harris, without Burnham, without effective use of the wideouts, is cause for great concern.

Now hope for the team and for the fans, is being held out for the return of Travis Lulay. His career is already in jeopardy. He is forgoing surgery on his shoulder to continue his rehab. It is his decision, with all the advice available to him. But it almost smacks of desperation. Will he not be snowed under by a swarm of pass rushers once again?

There was a lot of fan unrest by the end of last year. Benny, with the support of Wally, wanted to make some key changes. A big gamble. Our top two choices for OC turned us down. Khari was there with a relatively slim resume, and with very little experience as OC. With a new OC and DC, it certainly makes this Benny's team.

So here we are with 5 games left. All is still possible. But based on what we have seen so far, one would have to say that our chances of success in the playoffs do not look all that promising. We are pretty much middle of the road in our record, and in our overall performance. But ya never know ... Miracles do happen on the football field. 2011 kind of seems like that. An amazing turnaround and ultimate success. One has hopes ...



I am not one who likes to be negative, but I hope the lions do not make the playoffs or get knocked out early as a successful run in the playoffs would cover a lot of things up for this team in the future . this needs to be rectified know for the future of this team.
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Lions4ever
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David wrote:
Lions4ever wrote:
pennw wrote:Jcalhoun ,To your question regarding Beck , that guy couldn't even complete a pass to a wide open receiver 10 yards in front of him with out hitting the ground 5 yards up field.
I get the impression his arm is just flat-out shot.
Actually, no. Ironically, Beck might have the liveliest arm among all 4 BC quarterbacks (including a healthy Travis). It's just that between the practice field and when the stadium lights get turned on, something goes horribly wrong.
Maybe it's his vision then. Maybe the receiver appears to be 5 yards closer than he actually is.
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Only way stubborn Wally's hand is forced if Leos flop in last 5 games which could easily happen but again thats why they play the games....or a off season of excuses "Injuries to Lulay,Harris,Taylor, Oline...new cordinaters...yada yada
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Rammer
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Lions4ever wrote:
David wrote:
Lions4ever wrote:
I get the impression his arm is just flat-out shot.
Actually, no. Ironically, Beck might have the liveliest arm among all 4 BC quarterbacks (including a healthy Travis). It's just that between the practice field and when the stadium lights get turned on, something goes horribly wrong.
Maybe it's his vision then. Maybe the receiver appears to be 5 yards closer than he actually is.
Just like preseason, Beck was more concerned about launching the ball than he was about getting set properly. His foot work either displayed happy feet or feet that weren't set while he was throwing. Not a good trait for a jr football QB, let alone a QB that has made it to the professional level.
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Blitz
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Just like preseason, Beck was more concerned about launching the ball than he was about getting set properly. His foot work either displayed happy feet or feet that weren't set while he was throwing. Not a good trait for a jr football QB, let alone a QB that has made it to the professional level.
I agree Rammer...thought the same. I preferred Partridge coming out of training camp/pre-season.
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WestCoastJoe
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Rammer wrote:
David wrote: Actually, no. Ironically, Beck might have the liveliest arm among all 4 BC quarterbacks (including a healthy Travis). It's just that between the practice field and when the stadium lights get turned on, something goes horribly wrong.
Just like preseason, Beck was more concerned about launching the ball than he was about getting set properly. His foot work either displayed happy feet or feet that weren't set while he was throwing. Not a good trait for a jr football QB, let alone a QB that has made it to the professional level.
My impression of this ...

He is a throwing mechanics coach in the off season. He is not a good, functional QB under the pressure of game situations. At least not now, and probably not ever. He is the opposite of a guy with "poor" mechanics who can get the job done under heat (Possible examples: guys like Tom Wilkinson or Joe Kapp).

And perhaps Beck has too much stuff in his head, affecting his mechanics.

We see this in all sports. Too much stuff in the head negatively impacts performance. IMO top performance under pressure comes from athletic instincts at a lower, deeper level than the analytic brain.

This is similar IMO to what happens to our O Linemen under the tutelage of the extremely detail oriented Dan Dorazio. They are thinking of technique and assignments in the heat of battle. Not good. It has to be instinctive.

Just IMO ... (No pro here, but I've played many sports, and coached many sports.)

I read recently where Pete Carroll said what he has been teaching and identifying with his players throughout his career is grit and competitiveness. To me those qualities are necessary to perform under pressure. Technique without those qualities will not cut it, it seems to me.
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
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Rammer
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WestCoastJoe wrote:
Rammer wrote:
David wrote: Actually, no. Ironically, Beck might have the liveliest arm among all 4 BC quarterbacks (including a healthy Travis). It's just that between the practice field and when the stadium lights get turned on, something goes horribly wrong.
Just like preseason, Beck was more concerned about launching the ball than he was about getting set properly. His foot work either displayed happy feet or feet that weren't set while he was throwing. Not a good trait for a jr football QB, let alone a QB that has made it to the professional level.
My impression of this ...

He is a throwing mechanics coach in the off season. He is not a good, functional QB under the pressure of game situations. At least not now, and probably not ever. He is the opposite of a guy with "poor" mechanics who can get the job done under heat (Possible examples: guys like Tom Wilkinson or Joe Kapp).

And perhaps Beck has too much stuff in his head, affecting his mechanics.

We see this in all sports. Too much stuff in the head negatively impacts performance. IMO top performance under pressure comes from athletic instincts at a lower, deeper level than the analytic brain.

This is similar IMO to what happens to our O Linemen under the tutelage of the extremely detail oriented Dan Dorazio. They are thinking of technique and assignments in the heat of battle. Not good. It has to be instinctive.

Just IMO ... (No pro here, but I've played many sports, and coached many sports.)

I read recently where Pete Carroll said what he has been teaching and identifying with his players throughout his career is grit and competitiveness. To me those qualities are necessary to perform under pressure. Technique without those qualities will not cut it, it seems to me.
Mnay years back now, perhaps 25 or so, I was attending a seminar in Calgary, where an ex-Rider OL (can't recall his name) made a point on playing professional sports. He said that the best are the players who aren't thinking out there, in fact when you see a player thinking while the play is going on, he has lost a step. His analogy was to ask the audience to picture themselves driving their nice sports car, not taking note of the speed on a smooth gently winding highway, with the windows down, the sun shining and one hand on the wheel, purely enjoying the moment. Then to take that same ride, only now with a police officer in the passengers seat. You start off by checking your mirrors prior to starting, putting on the seatbelt, and so on....a much different drive mainly because you are thinking about every move that you do.

I agree with you WCJ, that Dorazio is doing the same instruction to the OL as this police officer and that Beck isn't processing the instruction instinctually. He is just way too far off his mechanics, and I am not sure how he reached this level given how awful he has looked. Some people are born to play, others are teachers.
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After the game with the Bombers, the one where the Lions running game took over in the 4th quarter, Vali, in a radio interview stated that they simplified the blocking especially in the 4thQ and instead of having to think too much they were quicker at engaging the block.

So why do the Lions continue to go away from stuff that works? :bang:

I believe that Partridge is the Lion's QB of the future or more accurately, he could be the QB of the future. With Lulay facing a possible early end to his playing days, Glenn being adequate but not comfortable and not too many years from retirement, and Beck looking less than capable so far, so maybe it is time to make Partridge #2 and get him some playing time.

I sure like the way the TiCats last year had a package of plays for Dan Lefevor (sp?) as it was a great way to get him some game time experience. Now Partridge is not a runner like LeFevor but I would still like to see him go in instead of Beck.
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WestCoastJoe
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Rammer wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote:
Rammer wrote:
Just like preseason, Beck was more concerned about launching the ball than he was about getting set properly. His foot work either displayed happy feet or feet that weren't set while he was throwing. Not a good trait for a jr football QB, let alone a QB that has made it to the professional level.
My impression of this ...

He is a throwing mechanics coach in the off season. He is not a good, functional QB under the pressure of game situations. At least not now, and probably not ever. He is the opposite of a guy with "poor" mechanics who can get the job done under heat (Possible examples: guys like Tom Wilkinson or Joe Kapp).

And perhaps Beck has too much stuff in his head, affecting his mechanics.

We see this in all sports. Too much stuff in the head negatively impacts performance. IMO top performance under pressure comes from athletic instincts at a lower, deeper level than the analytic brain.

This is similar IMO to what happens to our O Linemen under the tutelage of the extremely detail oriented Dan Dorazio. They are thinking of technique and assignments in the heat of battle. Not good. It has to be instinctive.

Just IMO ... (No pro here, but I've played many sports, and coached many sports.)

I read recently where Pete Carroll said what he has been teaching and identifying with his players throughout his career is grit and competitiveness. To me those qualities are necessary to perform under pressure. Technique without those qualities will not cut it, it seems to me.
Mnay years back now, perhaps 25 or so, I was attending a seminar in Calgary, where an ex-Rider OL (can't recall his name) made a point on playing professional sports. He said that the best are the players who aren't thinking out there, in fact when you see a player thinking while the play is going on, he has lost a step. His analogy was to ask the audience to picture themselves driving their nice sports car, not taking note of the speed on a smooth gently winding highway, with the windows down, the sun shining and one hand on the wheel, purely enjoying the moment. Then to take that same ride, only now with a police officer in the passengers seat. You start off by checking your mirrors prior to starting, putting on the seatbelt, and so on....a much different drive mainly because you are thinking about every move that you do.

I agree with you WCJ, that Dorazio is doing the same instruction to the OL as this police officer and that Beck isn't processing the instruction instinctually. He is just way too far off his mechanics, and I am not sure how he reached this level given how awful he has looked. Some people are born to play, others are teachers.
That is a terrific example, Rammer. Pressure from the observer, and focus on too much detail.

Picture a tennis coach kind of shouting at a young player: "Turn your hips. Turn your hips." And then the kid cannot hit the ball over the net.

Let's say a coach is harping on stuff like: "Eyes. Eyes. Eyes." "Left foot first." There is a great risk of paralysis by analysis. For me, for the O Line, I would try to get the focus on hard, solid, athletic contact. Forgedabout the technique if it interferes.

Of course technique matters. Want to hit the golf ball a long way? You better have good technique. But touch is more important in stuff like chipping and putting. In a battle such as LOS play, the play had better be instinctive. The techniques have to be instinctive. There is just too much stuff happening. Too fast.

IMO ...
John Madden's Team Policies: Be on time. Pay attention. Play like hell on game day.

Jimmy Johnson's Game Keys: Protect the ball. Make plays.

Walter Payton's Advice to Kids: Play hard. Play fair. Have fun.
TheLionKing
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DanoT wrote:After the game with the Bombers, the one where the Lions running game took over in the 4th quarter, Vali, in a radio interview stated that they simplified the blocking especially in the 4thQ and instead of having to think too much they were quicker at engaging the block.

So why do the Lions continue to go away from stuff that works? :bang:
That is the million dollar question that Lion fans have been wondering. Extremely frustrating to see them stop doing what has proven to be successful.
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notahomer
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WestCoastJoe wrote:......Of course technique matters. Want to hit the golf ball a long way? You better have good technique. ...
Agree that thinking gets peoples way. "Keep your head down" is this type of coaching/mumbojumbo that gets tossed in by pseudo coaches trying to 'help'. Lifting your head MAYBE a flaw in some peoples golf swings, but IMO, its one of those things that gets tossed out there all the time.

This is NOT the first time Lions O-line guys have admitted that simplfying made things easier. I hope the O-line can build on some success instead of continuing to struggle with a complicated system.....
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SammyGreene
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leo4life wrote:Only way stubborn Wally's hand is forced if Leos flop in last 5 games which could easily happen but again thats why they play the games....or a off season of excuses "Injuries to Lulay,Harris,Taylor, Oline...new cordinaters...yada yada
With all these mounting injuries I have been thinking the exact same thing leo4life. Wally could almost do his year end press conference now. Blaming all the injuries for the Lions shortcomings and how the coaching staff did a commendable job under the circumstances.

It looks good on paper. Too bad the lack of execution and god awful offensive football a lot of the time came when most of those players were healthy too and with a veteran QB that led another team to a 1st place finish a year ago.

If Wally serves up these excuses and it's basically status quo going forward then the Lions will be in for a rude awakening when it comes to season ticket renewal. A lot of ST holders I know are pretty steamed at how this season has unfolded and more importantly the quality of entertainment on the field, especially at home.

The scary part too is there is no future Buck Pierce or Mike Reilly in the wings waiting to take over if this indeed the end for Lulay. Beck seems like nothing more than a washed up NFL journeyman who has never got it done at the pro level.
Even though he showed his inexperience with some very poor reads, Demarco looked far better last year and he was 24 not 33.
Are the Lions also missing Chapdelaine's work with young QBs that someone like Partridge would benefit from?
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