The Ricky Ray Game, June 30, 2012

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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - How the deal went down ...

Postby WestCoastJoe » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:31 pm

Blitz wrote:I agree that you can win (and teams have) with both athletic quarterbacks and high efficiency pocket quarterbacks. I have a preference for the athletic type for the CFL.

I don't think Travis Lulay is one of a kind. We've seen quarterbacks like him many times before and will again and that's not taking anything away from Lulay. Henry Burris had a number of seasons similar to the one Travis Lulay had this season.


I had said that Lulay was a one of a kind QB at this time. I don't see his like anywhere else in the CFL. Of course there have been athletic quarterbacks before. Hard to say how much Burris has left, although he looks to be in good shape physically.

No, Tillman did not need to gamble and conventional wisdom would say that he should not have.


Agreed. :thup: Looks like I am with the conventional wisdom this time. LOL Oh well ...

Like you though, I wonder if Tillman got fair value in the trade. Toronto really needed a proven quarterback and like you I believe Edmonton could have held out for more or not made the trade.


Yes. We agree Tillman could have gotten more in return. :thup:

* We do seem to place a different value, however, on how much Ricky Ray brings to a team as its quarterback.

* We might disagree on whether Tillman could have built a Grey Cup contender around him.

* We might also disagree on whether Tillman has a QB in the pipeline who can lead the Schmos to the Grey Cup.

* And we might disagree on how likely it is for the Eskimos to have a dynamic passing attack next year, in the absence of Ricky Ray.

It's obvious I rate Ray very, very highly. Hall of Fame first ballot. Not easy to replace. At this time, IMO, the second most valuable player in the league, after Lulay. IMO Ray is very much a franchise quarterback, which to me, means that one could build a Grey Cup level team around him (Heck they have already done it twice with him).

I am very happy to have him in the East, one less danger in the West. The Argos will be interesting for a change.

Could Ray flop in Toronto? Seems very unlikely. He might be better. He might be the same. He might be somewhat less effective. I expect him to be every bit as effective as he has been.

Could Tillman pull a rabbit out of the hat? Find a top level quarterback? Sure. I do think though, that he virtually gave Ricky Ray away.

All of this, of course, is just IMO ...
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - How the deal went down ...

Postby TheLionKing » Mon Dec 19, 2011 9:07 pm

Ray will help the Argos providing they can keep him standing upright.
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - How the deal went down ...

Postby Blitz » Tue Dec 20, 2011 7:27 am

WestCoastJoe wrote:
Blitz wrote:I agree that you can win (and teams have) with both athletic quarterbacks and high efficiency pocket quarterbacks. I have a preference for the athletic type for the CFL.

I don't think Travis Lulay is one of a kind. We've seen quarterbacks like him many times before and will again and that's not taking anything away from Lulay. Henry Burris had a number of seasons similar to the one Travis Lulay had this season.


I had said that Lulay was a one of a kind QB at this time. I don't see his like anywhere else in the CFL. Of course there have been athletic quarterbacks before. Hard to say how much Burris has left, although he looks to be in good shape physically.

No, Tillman did not need to gamble and conventional wisdom would say that he should not have.


Agreed. :thup: Looks like I am with the conventional wisdom this time. LOL Oh well ...

Like you though, I wonder if Tillman got fair value in the trade. Toronto really needed a proven quarterback and like you I believe Edmonton could have held out for more or not made the trade.


Yes. We agree Tillman could have gotten more in return. :thup:

* We do seem to place a different value, however, on how much Ricky Ray brings to a team as its quarterback.

* We might disagree on whether Tillman could have built a Grey Cup contender around him.

* We might also disagree on whether Tillman has a QB in the pipeline who can lead the Schmos to the Grey Cup.

* And we might disagree on how likely it is for the Eskimos to have a dynamic passing attack next year, in the absence of Ricky Ray.

It's obvious I rate Ray very, very highly. Hall of Fame first ballot. Not easy to replace. At this time, IMO, the second most valuable player in the league, after Lulay. IMO Ray is very much a franchise quarterback, which to me, means that one could build a Grey Cup level team around him (Heck they have already done it twice with him).

I am very happy to have him in the East, one less danger in the West. The Argos will be interesting for a change.

Could Ray flop in Toronto? Seems very unlikely. He might be better. He might be the same. He might be somewhat less effective. I expect him to be every bit as effective as he has been.

Could Tillman pull a rabbit out of the hat? Find a top level quarterback? Sure. I do think though, that he virtually gave Ricky Ray away.

All of this, of course, is just IMO ...


I guess it all depends on how much one values the Ricky Ray brand. One either sees him as a cool, poised quarterback leader or one who seems to lack passion and dynamism.

I think Ricky Ray wil play better in Toronto. He has Milanovich there, who worked with Anthony Cavillo and he will design an offence around Ricky Ray's strengths, as he did with Cavillo. I see a quick passing offence for Ricky Ray being designed for Ray as was designed for Cavillo.

In Edmonton, I see their offence using the run a lot, with a lot of zone read by the quarterback,who will read the end and then either hand it off to Messam or keep it to boot outside, with a quarterback run/pass option, trying to put pressure on the edge.
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - How the deal went down ...

Postby Toppy Vann » Tue Dec 20, 2011 9:47 pm

Now it is coming out that Ricky Ray was shopped last year:

Last winter, Tillman had a deal in place to ship Ray and his $515,000 per season contract to the Tiger-Cats, one that was held up because Hamilton first wanted Ray's contract to be restructured. Ray agreed to take pay cut of more than $100,000 per season. But upon re-doing the deal, Ray's agent, Ken Staninger, asked for assurance that Ray would not be immediately traded out of town. Tillman kept his word and the deal to Hamilton died.

The Tiger-Cats were again at the table this time around before Tillman pulled the trigger on the deal to Toronto, but offered a less appealing package built around the rights to former Sherbrooke University receiver Sam Giguere, who has spent three seasons in the NFL but remains an unsigned free agent.

So like almost all conspiracy theories in sports, the CFL-forced trading of Ricky Ray to Toronto is pure bunk.


http://tsn.ca/blogs/dave_naylor/?id=382713
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - How the deal went down ...

Postby WestCoastJoe » Fri May 25, 2012 6:24 pm

http://www.cfl.ca/article/campbell-life ... takes-over

Campbell: Life after Ray, who takes over? Posted: May 22, 2012 11:00 AM

Dave Campbell

For the past decade, there was no such thing as a heated discussion about who would start at quarterback for the Edmonton Eskimos.

Simply put, it was either Ricky Ray or Jason Maas. But mostly Ray.

However, as we all know, Ray is currently over 3,000 kilometers East in Toronto, preparing to star for the Argonauts.

So, for the first time in a long time, fans of the Green and Gold will welcome in a new CFL season with a new starting quarterback. There is a vast amount of quantity, but how much quality is there to choose from?

Steven Jyles – who was dealt to the Esks in the Ray deal back in December, Kerry Joseph, Matt Nichols, Eric Ward and Jeremiah Masoli are the names fans should begin getting acquainted with. One of these guys will lead your Edmonton Eskimos onto the field come June 30 against a very familiar face – Ray and the Toronto Argonauts.


Believe me when I say that my Twitter interaction list has been filled with nervous football fans that all have a general feeling that the upcoming campaign will be an absolute disaster. Ray has been the face of the franchise 2002.


Nervous fans in Edmonton? LOL Cool. They should be nervous. But not as nervous as Tillman. He has gone all in on the deal.

He was the one player you could point to on the Eskimos roster and say “Because you have Ricky Ray at quarterback, you always have a chance to win.”


Absolutely right.

Some of the fans and media have made up their minds already that 2012 will be a bad year. Truthfully, it remains to be seen. General Manager Eric Tillman’s top reason for trading Ray was in his words “transition.”

Tillman wants to develop a new stable of quarterbacks and felt last December was the right time to do it, rather than waiting two more years.


Transition? I would say it was more like radical, experimental surgery.

IMO a better approach by the GM would be to keep Ricky Ray until he is beaten out at QB. That could be 3 or 4 more years or more. Re-negotiate him down again as his play slips, which IMO has not happened.

I have a hunch Tillman did not like Ray's cool style all that much, unemotional, not passsionate.

If Tillman was worried about not getting much in return for Ray in two or three years ... well he made that happen now. He got very little in return.

Tillman wants to develop a new stable of quarterbacks and felt last December was the right time to do it, rather than waiting two more years.

The Eskimos held a mini-camp last month and Jyles held his place as the top pivot on the depth chart. However, Tillman says that doesn’t mean he will automatically be the starter this season.

“We believe in Steven but at the same time it was made very clear before we made the trade that it doesn’t anoint Steven as the starting quarterback,” Tillman explained.

“I think people have made that assumption because of the trade. The best quarterback will play and the coaches will make that determination. We have some young on the team that can step forward.”


Slim pickings with these 5 IMO.

Transition is the name of the game, or the name of the trade. The plan is to have Nichols, Ward, or Masoli step up and be the new signal caller.

They question is: when will the club be comfortable enough to give the ball to one of the three? Not to start 2012 to be sure….you would think.


Is there a good one amongst Nichols, Ward and Masoli? Dunno ...

Nichols appears to be closest at being ready to take the job. He enjoyed a great mini-camp and Reed says he has a great shot of snagging the backup job for this season. Ward had a lousy mini-camp showing shoddy mechanics and lacking velocity on his throws. Masoli is a project; he won’t be a factor this season.


Nichols ... Hmmm ... maybe and maybe not.

Ward? Shoddy mechanics? LOL Oh my God. What the heck is he even doing working out if he has poor mechanics?

Masoli? A project? Oh my God. Worse than Ward.
............

For a B.C. fan this is kind of fun. If Tillman screws the pooch in Edmonton, that franchise can withstand a lot. It was the flagship of the CFL for decades. A bit of hardship will bring the city some humility. Maybe ...
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - Nervous fans in Edmonton

Postby TheLionKing » Fri May 25, 2012 7:55 pm

Bruce Lemmerman didn't have the greatest mechanics. He had a pretty good career
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - Nervous fans in Edmonton

Postby WestCoastJoe » Fri May 25, 2012 9:24 pm

TheLionKing wrote:Bruce Lemmerman didn't have the greatest mechanics. He had a pretty good career


True. Same with Joe Kapp, Tom Wilkinson and a bunch of others.

However, along with the shoddy mechanics the coaches said that Ward lacked velocity and had a bad camp also. Not promising ...

Is that the best group of QBs Tillman can come up with? Kerry Joseph and Steven Jyles and these guys in behind?

I just have this hunch that Edmonton is going to have quarterback play well below that of the contenders for the Grey Cup. Is Kerry Joseph capable at this stage of leading Edmonton to the big game? Is Steven Jyles going to suddenly show much more than he has shown so far with a few teams in the CFL? Kind of doubt it ...

And it comes back to trading Ricky Ray. If Edmonton has all the other pieces, they still need a top level QB. Tillman says he is not rebuilding; they want to contend now. Hmmmm ... dunno about that possibility. I would say Toronto is more likely to get to the Cup than Edmonton.

Apparently Tillman came close to trading Ray to Hamilton last year. So he didn't just suddenly have a brain fart, or get suckered by Jim Barker, he wanted to trade Ricky Ray for two years in a row.

The strangest aspects to me are: not getting much in return, and not having top level capable guys ready to step in in Ray's absence. So it seems to me he was pretty keen to trade Ray. It makes me think he really didn't like Ray's seemingly passionless approach to the game.
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - How the deal went down ...

Postby Toppy Vann » Sat May 26, 2012 1:11 am

cromartie wrote:
WestCoastJoe wrote:

An improved team next year. Nope. In the next few years. Maybe, but that would not necessarily have required the trading of Ricky Ray.

A savings in salary expenses. Maybe. Jyles ain't cheap either.

A team reflecting Eric Tillman's vision, with his stamp on it. Ummmm ... Yeah.

Just IMO, and I actually do think Tillman has had a remarkable career, building franchises. This is about the Ricky Ray trade, a trade which I obviously think was poorly considered and carried out.


The only point Tillman has is that they have a host of free agents coming up after next season and they need all the cap room they can get. This deal gives them over $200k in cap room with which to operate. That's not small potatoes. Ray already took one pay cut before last season and it likely would have been difficult justifying asking him to take another one.

It doesn't excuse the poor return on the deal, they could have and should have gotten help on the defensive or offensive lines and/or the secondary, but he is responsible for managing the cap ramifications of the franchise for longer than one year. Let's not pretend that EE doesn't have some significant roster deficiencies that need to be addressed.

It's not all about ego. (Certainly some, but not all).

About Tillman, remarkable is not the term I'd use to describe his tenure in Ottawa. He has his fair share of blind spots, loyalty to bad coaching being chief among them.



I think Ottawa and ownership has to be a Mulligan for this guy.

You touch on the key points IMO with the one key point in my mind - Why Jyles with his checkered past as a top QB? Reversing Barker's question about what ET might know about Ricky Ray that they don't (a la dumping Joseph) my question has been since this went down: What is ET and Reed seeing in Jyles that the rest of the CFL can't see?

I think ET is looking at this over the longer haul with the FAs and those issues. Secondly for as many Ray fans there are doubters and in some ways that was the deal with Damon Allen when Wally took over in BC. He decided to go with Dave D. and let DA move as the fan base were not in love with this QB and WB knew it was not DA's fault but the state of the entire franchise and its leadership.
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - Nervous fans in Edmonton

Postby Hambone » Sat May 26, 2012 12:04 pm

Perhaps Tillman is dumb like a fox with yet another dumping of a QB to Toronto at the right time. As BC GM he managed to flog a spent Kent Austin on the Argos. A few years ago it was Kerry Joseph he passed off on the Boatmen. Now Ricky Ray? Admittedly Ray has a lot more left in the tank than the others did but his game does seem to have stagnated or at best plateaued in the Garlic City. Could they have received more? Maybe. It all depends on where Tillman and Reed feel the Esks are in what has been a CFL version of Extreme Makeover. If they feel they are still in the early stages of rebuilding as opposed to simply retooling then the combination of a QB, Shaw, the high draft pick plus significant cap space that can be used for other impact assets is a good return. Certainly if the Argos had already paid Jyles a chunk on top of absorbing Ray's contract then that serves to reduce the player assets Going west. If they were retooling then this trade would never have happened.
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - How the deal went down ...

Postby sj-roc » Sat May 26, 2012 2:50 pm

Campbell: Life after Ray, who takes over? Posted: May 22, 2012 11:00 AM

Dave Campbell

For the past decade, there was no such thing as a heated discussion about who would start at quarterback for the Edmonton Eskimos.

Simply put, it was either Ricky Ray or Jason Maas. But mostly Ray.

However, as we all know, Ray is currently over 3,000 kilometers East in Toronto, preparing to star for the Argonauts.

So, for the first time in a long time, fans of the Green and Gold will welcome in a new CFL season with a new starting quarterback.

The opening of this article made me think of the last two times we went into training camp without a bonafide consensus starting QB: 1996 and 2011, with each of those teams having a decidedly different fate from the other (naturally the leadership from above, or lack thereof, factored into that). Will be interesting to see where on the continuum the Eskimos end up.
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - How the deal went down ...

Postby DanoT » Sat May 26, 2012 9:46 pm

sj-roc wrote:
Campbell: Life after Ray, who takes over? Posted: May 22, 2012 11:00 AM

Dave Campbell

For the past decade, there was no such thing as a heated discussion about who would start at quarterback for the Edmonton Eskimos.

Simply put, it was either Ricky Ray or Jason Maas. But mostly Ray.

However, as we all know, Ray is currently over 3,000 kilometers East in Toronto, preparing to star for the Argonauts.

So, for the first time in a long time, fans of the Green and Gold will welcome in a new CFL season with a new starting quarterback.

The opening of this article made me think of the last two times we went into training camp without a bonafide consensus starting QB: 1996 and 2011, with each of those teams having a decidedly different fate from the other (naturally the leadership from above, or lack thereof, factored into that). Will be interesting to see where on the continuum the Eskimos end up.


Lions ended 2010 with Lulay at QB and he was the consensus starter in 2011. Last time Jarious Jackson was the starting QB was I think 2007. Of course it depends on your definition of consensus (guess we will never get a consensus on that one :dizzy: ). Or maybe in 2011 there were a lot more J. Jackson fans than I thought.
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - Nervous fans in Edmonton

Postby Sir Purrcival » Sat May 26, 2012 11:20 pm

Tillman has always had a relatively short shelf-life and his time is due in Edmonton.

As for some of the other great deals he pulled off with QB's in the past. Joseph has never been a "great" QB. He managed to put it together enough to get one Grey Cup and even at that he had to have the other team go and lose their starting QB in the Eastern Final first. Facing the all impressive Ryan Dinwiddie in his first professional start and even then not trouncing them in the big game says a lot about the respective talents of Kerry Joseph.

I wouldn't mistake the Argo's total lack of prescience as brilliance on ET's part. Tillman is good to a point as GM but he seems to wear out his welcomes pretty quickly and has done so consistently since he became well known. This gamble with the QB'ing is going to be interesting. If they do better than expected, I am inclined to believe that their strength in the receiver department is going to have a lot to do with it. They have a stable of average QB's at best. That doesn't mean that it can't work out for them but it will mean that other parts of the team (Oline, D, and Receivers) are going to have to give the QB's good protection, short fields and a lot of spectacular variety catches.
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Re: Ricky Ray to the Argos - Nervous fans in Edmonton

Postby David » Sun May 27, 2012 3:56 am

While I'll stop short of calling Steven Jyles a Grey Cup calibre quarterback, I don't think he's as bad as some make him out to be.

Let's not forget that he never had the benefit of a full training camp with the Argos as he went on the 9 game IR to start the season due to a shoulder injury. Then we soon discovered that he had no one to throw to (okay, maybe "no one" is a bit misleading, but put it this way. Their leading receiver - Chad Owens - took a lot of swing passes for big gains).

I do think he's somewhat injury prone though.


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