The Ricky Ray Game, June 30, 2012

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WestCoastJoe
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Tillman may come out of the Ricky Ray trade OK. He may, and he may not. It depends on how the Eskimos do this year. I don't think any fans are going to take a long term view. They never do. And it depends on how Ray does with the Argos.

If the Eskimos make the playoffs, that will take a lot of heat off Tillman. And if Ricky Ray has an ordinary season in Toronto, the anger of the fans and media will abate.

I would say the Eskimos might make the playoffs, based on how bad the Riders look as an organization. I would say it is unlikely the Eskimos will get All Star quarterbacking this year.

Could Ricky Ray have led the Eskimos to the Grey Cup in the next year or two or three? Well under Danny Maciocia and Rick LeLacheur the team ran off the tracks. Ricky Ray kept them respectable. A Grey Cup appearance with Tom Brady at quarterback was unlikely.

How will Ricky Ray do in Toronto? It is possible that he will take them to a Cup appearance. It is also possible that he will not make the transition to a different offence all that well. Milanovich's offence sounds complicated. Might have been better to build the offence around Ray's well known strengths. We don't know. But just look at his record, at his stats. Those are not make believe. Those are Hall of Fame credentials. Those are stats and Grey Cup wins to compare to any quarterback ever in the CFL. It is not smoke and mirrors. He can be one helluva quarterback. In a boring, cool as ice, persona. But that very cool can be misleading. He does give his team confidence. And he does have a burning desire to win.

If Ricky Ray leads the Argos to a Grey Cup win in the next year or two or three, the only way Tillman comes out of the trade OK, is if the Eskimos win one also. IMO ... Milanovich is unproven as a Head Coach. Barker has no glowing credi\entials. So if the Argos are to do it, it will be largely because of Ricky Ray.

And for those fans in Edmonton who say Ricky Ray cannot throw the long ball, I would disagree. And for those fans who say he is not mobile I would disagree and also laugh a bit.

One thing most people tend to agree on is that Tillman got very, very little in return.

And his comments justifying the trade were off the wall, not even serving himself well.
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Toppy Vann
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I don't disagree Blitz but even more so ET should have done this move with a back up who was ready to win versus some things he saw in Jyles some years back.

Of course the real games will tell the truth of the trade.

Is this building a stronger team? Yikes if I were an Esks fan or media person.
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WestCoastJoe
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http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Football/CFL/ ... 1-qmi.html
“I, as a coach, hope and pray Ricky gets a standing ovation. He deserves that for what he’s done for this franchise and community.”

Gene Principe of Rogers Sportsnet used the occasion, with Ray on the property, to ask a well-phrased question which effectively put Reed on the spot to answer, for once and for all, if it were his call, and not GM Eric Tillman’s, if would he have traded Ray.

“You know, Gene, I love you,” laughed Reed.

“Ricky has been an absolute professional. His numbers speak for themselves. It’s no secret I loved working with Ricky. The decision was made to trade Ricky Ray and as the head coach it was my job to look at what we have.

“Do I have the utmost respect for Ricky? Did I love working with him? Absolutely. No question about it. But as a part of this franchise my job is to make certain that the most important aspect is what we have to work with and to put a competitive product on the field.

“So ... I did the politically correct thing and avoided your question,” said Reed.

Actually, coach, I believe that does answer it.
I had suspected Reed did not want to trade Ricky Ray.
Reed also answered a question about Ray’s lack of mobility, one of the perceived reasons for Tillman trading him, which was eyebrow-raising.

“I think it’s under-rated. I think that’s one knock that a lot of people have given Ricky that really is unjustified. Ricky has good mobility but his penchant is being a pocket passer because he’s such an accurate quarterback. He can run when he has to. I anticipate the first play he’ll run tomorrow is to run with it himself because everybody said he can’t and that’s why we traded him.”
I share that opinion.

Ray said "I wish I could have finished here. This is where I wanted to be. I think that's every athlete's dream, to stay in one place, and not go anywhere else. Not too many guys get to live that dream."

IMO Ray would have taken a pay cut again, if asked. So once again it just seems to me this was a statement trade by Tillman. I am the face of the Eskimos, not Ricky Ray. Just IMO ...
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Rammer
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WestCoastJoe wrote:
IMO Ray would have taken a pay cut again, if asked. So once again it just seems to me this was a statement trade by Tillman. I am the face of the Eskimos, not Ricky Ray. Just IMO ...
I think that is a very insightful statement. Perhaps Tillman's ego is as big as that afterall. :shock:
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:pray: One game does not provide enough of a window to analyze a trade but the Edmonton-Toronto game on Saturday night continued to reinforce my thoughts that the Eskimos needed to move in a different direction at quarterback..and therefore I agreed with the Ricky Ray trade. The big question mark I had was whether Jyles was the guy they should have been looking at to replace him.

In the Toronto-Edmonton game Ricky Ray did what he alwasys seems to do...he threw for great percentage, he threw for over 300 yds, and he didn't put a lot of points on the board. His stats look great but Toronto only scored 15 points. Ray dumped the football off a lot, as always.

Ricky Ray has very good escapabilty but he is not that mbile nor is he aggessive as a quarterback. Travis Lulay only completed 60% of this passes last year but won the MOP, aided greatly by his touchdown/interception ratio. Lulay is mobile, can roll out effectively, break down a defense with his feet, and willing to take his shots downfield. He is a much more dangerous quarterback right now that Ricky Ray is.

With time running out in the Edmonton game Ricky Ray had an opportunity to drive his team downfield for the winning touchdown. Granted, he is playing with a new set of receivers in a new system and will get better. But still he dumped off in situations where he needed to attack. Quite frankly I don't think he deserves to be paid as the highest salary player in the league and the corresponding impact of his salary was also problematic for Edmonton.

Jyles may not be the answer in Edmonton and the key to their future at quarterback may be developing a new, younger quarterback as Calgary is trying to do in Tate, rather than going with a recycled one.

However, I still believe Edmonton has situated themselves better for the future with Ray gone. They got a great draft choice for him, a kicker ..and they needed one, and Jyles may yet provide them with good enough quarterbacking..but if he doesn't Ricky Ray was not likely going to get them to the Grey Cup game in Toronto this year. Tillman knew that and if he was going to beat our B.C, Lions the road to that goal was not with Ricky Ray at quarterback.

Hows that for continuing to go out on a limb on this thread?? :wink: :pray: :pray:
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B.C.FAN
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Blitz, based on one game at least, I agree with you. Jyles and Ray both performed about as well as can be expected for quarterbacks learning new systems and new receivers and playing behind new and inexperienced offensive lines. The difference in the game was the forgotten man in the trade, Grant Shaw, who went 4-4 on field goals for Edmonton while Noel Prefontaine went 2-4 for Toronto. If Prefontaine had hit his other two field goals (one of which was a chip shot that hit the upright), the score would have been 20-19 for Toronto.

The bigger issue I saw with the Toronto offence was Ray's tendency to dump the ball off to stationary Cory Boyd at the line of scrimmage. Boyd had 11 catches for 9 yards. Take away his 5-yard touchdown and the rest of the passes might as well have gone incomplete. If you're going to dump the ball to a receiver, make sure his feet are moving. Boyd is tough to tackle when he is in motion but is useless when he's standing still. Ray had success with dump passes in Edmonton because his running backs were good at sliding into an open area and making people miss.
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B.C.FAN wrote:Blitz, based on one game at least, I agree with you. Jyles and Ray both performed about as well as can be expected for quarterbacks learning new systems and new receivers and playing behind new and inexperienced offensive lines. The difference in the game was the forgotten man in the trade, Grant Shaw, who went 4-4 on field goals for Edmonton while Noel Prefontaine went 2-4 for Toronto. If Prefontaine had hit his other two field goals (one of which was a chip shot that hit the upright), the score would have been 20-19 for Toronto.

The bigger issue I saw with the Toronto offence was Ray's tendency to dump the ball off to stationary Cory Boyd at the line of scrimmage. Boyd had 11 catches for 9 yards. Take away his 5-yard touchdown and the rest of the passes might as well have gone incomplete. If you're going to dump the ball to a receiver, make sure his feet are moving. Boyd is tough to tackle when he is in motion but is useless when he's standing still. Ray had success with dump passes in Edmonton because his running backs were good at sliding into an open area and making people miss.
Agree completely with all your points B.C. Fan

When one looks at Lulay and Ray's stats last season Lulayès passing average was 58.7% to Ricky Ray's 65.2 %. Ray's quarterback effficiency average was better too at 99.3 to Lulay's 95.8. Obviously Lulay finished last season much stronger than he started and won the MOP.

Ricky Ray has always been a high stat quarterback. However, the most important apect of leading an offence is how many points you're offence is able to score. Edmonton finished 6th in points scored last season, fifth in touchdowns scored, and sixth in most first downs. Ricky Ray had been putting up the numbers for years in Edemonton but was not leading Edmonton to wins in big games for a long time and he was very expensive. Ray is playing for a Head Coach in Toronto who has a brilliant offensive mind as well as a system that should suit Ricky's Ray's style. Ricky Ray has a lot of experience and a lot of tools but to me, he just doesn't have the dynamic to be the big difference maker at quarterback. anymore.
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WestCoastJoe
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Blitz wrote: However, I still believe Edmonton has situated themselves better for the future with Ray gone. They got a great draft choice for him, a kicker ..and they needed one, and Jyles may yet provide them with good enough quarterbacking..but if he doesn't Ricky Ray was not likely going to get them to the Grey Cup game in Toronto this year. Tillman knew that and if he was going to beat our B.C, Lions the road to that goal was not with Ricky Ray at quarterback.

Hows that for continuing to go out on a limb on this thread?? :wink: :pray: :pray:
LOL ... Well you have never been afraid to be in the minority.

Oh and if I see it differently than a couple of battleships like Blitz and BCFAN, who is in the minority now? LOL
B.C.FAN wrote:Blitz, based on one game at least, I agree with you.
Blitz wrote: Agree completely with all your points B.C. Fan
It was a narrow win for the Esks. Ray had a chance to make life very uncomfortable for Eric Tillman. Pretty close at the end. The Eskimos beat a very ordinary Argonaut team. The Argonauts certainly don't look like a threat to get to the Grey Cup.

Ray created offence for a team that without him might have been lucky to generate 200 yards total offence. He did the same for some weak Eskimo teams. How would the Ricky Ray Game have looked in retrospect if Ray had punched in a TD at the end. Maybe on a corner route?

Scott Milanovich is a new Head Coach. Unproven. The Argonauts do not look like they have all that much aside from Ricky Ray. I would not say this one game says that much new or different about Ricky Ray.

Steven Jyles did much better than I would have thought. But he did have some good games in Winnipeg.
..............

My questions for the Eric Tillman trademark trade of Ricky Ray are:

Would Ricky Ray have taken another pay cut to make life easier under the cap for the Eskimos?

Would Ricky Ray have given the Eskimos a chance for a Grey Cup appearance if he had stayed in Edmonton?

Couldn't Tiillman have eased Ray out of the job? Develop a QB behind him?

Did he get enough in return for Ray?

Was this an ego trade? Was this a statement trade?
............

It would have been safer for Tillman to keep Ray, at possibly reduced salary, and build around and behind him. The fact that he didn't do that tends to make me believe that he didn't really want Ricky Ray at any price. He wanted him gone.
............

The Ray trade is one thing. Another thing is will Tillman be able to build the Eskimos into a ocntender? Can they get to the Cup with Jyles as QB? Could they have gotten to a Cup this year or next or the year after with Ray?
...........

Well one thing is that beating the Argos, albeit narrowly, takes some heat off Tillman. And full credit to Jyles for performing reasonably well under a lot of pressure. Same for Ray.
...........

Part of this discussion is preferences in QBs. As Ricky Ray said, it seems he is not Eric Tillman's kind of quarterback. And that would seem to be the case for Blitz as well.

I feel we have been blessed with great quarterbacks in B.C. under Wally's leadership. A variety of types too. And yet Ricky Ray is a quarterback I would want as well. No mistake, he is my kind of quarterback. And so was Dave Dickenson. And Casey Printers. And Buck Pierce while he was healthy. And Travis Lulay.
...........
For me, and for many fans, the bottom line will be this: If Ricky Ray takes the Argos to a Cup appearance in the next year or three, the only way Tillman comes out OK is if the Eskimos make it there also.

The jury is out, awaiting more evidence.
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WestCoastJoe wrote:
Blitz wrote: However, I still believe Edmonton has situated themselves better for the future with Ray gone. They got a great draft choice for him, a kicker ..and they needed one, and Jyles may yet provide them with good enough quarterbacking..but if he doesn't Ricky Ray was not likely going to get them to the Grey Cup game in Toronto this year. Tillman knew that and if he was going to beat our B.C, Lions the road to that goal was not with Ricky Ray at quarterback.

Hows that for continuing to go out on a limb on this thread?? :wink: :pray: :pray:
LOL ... Well you have never been afraid to be in the minority.

Oh and if I see it differently than a couple of battleships like Blitz and BCFAN, who is in the minority now? LOL


..............

My questions for the Eric Tillman trademark trade of Ricky Ray are:

Would Ricky Ray have taken another pay cut to make life easier under the cap for the Eskimos?

Would Ricky Ray have given the Eskimos a chance for a Grey Cup appearance if he had stayed in Edmonton?

Couldn't Tiillman have eased Ray out of the job? Develop a QB behind him?

Did he get enough in return for Ray?

Was this an ego trade? Was this a statement trade?
............

It would have been safer for Tillman to keep Ray, at possibly reduced salary, and build around and behind him. The fact that he didn't do that tends to make me believe that he didn't really want Ricky Ray at any price. He wanted him gone.
............

The Ray trade is one thing. Another thing is will Tillman be able to build the Eskimos into a ocntender? Can they get to the Cup with Jyles as QB? Could they have gotten to a Cup this year or next or the year after with Ray?
...........

Well one thing is that beating the Argos, albeit narrowly, takes some heat off Tillman. And full credit to Jyles for performing reasonably well under a lot of pressure. Same for Ray.
...........

For me, and for many fans, the bottom line will be this: If Ricky Ray takes the Argos to a Cup appearance in the next year or three, the only way Tillman comes out OK is if the Eskimos make it there also.

The jury is out, awaiting more evidence.
Well, you have always felt more comfortable with the majority WestCoastJoe!! :wink:

To me it comes down to Ray's intagibles. He's always been a high stat quarterback. Last season he finished with higher passing percentages and a higher quarterback efficiency average than Travis Lulay.

However, Rays quarterback stats only tell part of the story. Edmonton's offence finished sixth in first downs, fifth in touchdown passes, and sixth in scoring last year, in spite of Ray's great stats....and he had some very good receivers to throw to and a running game that was solid.

Ray always seems to pass for high percentage and put up a lot of passing yards. The game on Saturday night was a typical Ricky Ray night but the points on the socreboard were also a reflection that while Ray puts up great stats the scoreboard does not correspond to those stats the way they should.

Why not? Its not that Ray just dumps off...every quarterback needs to do that at times against the blitz but when Ray does. He thinks nothing of dumping a two yard pass to a back when he needs second and ten. There is a time to dump and a time to take that shot downfield, even if the percentage is less.

My responses to your questions are:

1. Don't know but highly doubt Ray would have taken a salary cut and probably if he did he would have been disgruntled.

2. I believe Tillman wanted Ray gone for two reasons 1) his salary as the highest paid quarterback in the league was very restrictive and 2) he didn't believe Ray was the quarterback who could be the difference maker in beating our B.C. Lions and winning a Grey Cup and I agree with him.

Is Jyles the answer? Probably not but who knows? Was Ray the answer? I think not. He would have kept Edmonton respectable but did not have the dynamic to be the differencde maker to get them over the top and at the same time Tillman would not have been able to sign players that he wanted to keep. I'm guessing that Tillman might have waited a year but was too tempted by a first round draft choice and a kciker and he got a quarterback that was mobile that was worth a shotl. Tillman thought that he could not get that much by waiting another season. Who knows.

I actually think Ray is better off in Toronto. In Edmonton he looked at his primary and scondary receiver and then dumped. In Toronto he's playing in a system that will better suit his style and learning to potentially use any one of his receivers on a given play.

Toronto could get to the Grey Cup out of the East and then who knows in a single game? However, Tillman pulled the trigger wanted to hafve the opportunity to win it all rather than just remaining respectable. I'd hopefully do the same thing but its defintiely more risky....and if we were gm's on different teams you'd probably keep your job longer.. :wink: :wink:
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Oh and if I see it differently than a couple of battleships like Blitz and BCFAN, who is in the minority now? LOL
B.C.FAN wrote:Blitz, based on one game at least, I agree with you.
Blitz wrote: Agree completely with all your points B.C. Fan
Part of this discussion is preferences in QBs. As Ricky Ray said, it seems he is not Eric Tillman's kind of quarterback. And that would seem to be the case for Blitz as well.

I feel we have been blessed with great quarterbacks in B.C. under Wally's leadership. A variety of types too. And yet Ricky Ray is a quarterback I would want as well. No mistake, he is my kind of quarterback. And so was Dave Dickenson. And Casey Printers. And Buck Pierce while he was healthy. And Travis Lulay.
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For me at least, as much as this is a discussion of Ricky Ray's merits as a QB, it is also a discussion of Eric Tillman's merits as a GM.

Along the lines of "someone's kind of quarterback," it must be obvious that I am no longer a fan of Eric Tillman. He is not "my kind of GM." He may well build a contender in Edmonton. He has built contenders and championship teams before. But his style with the media rankles for me. I don't buy what he is selling. So if the Ricky Ray trade blows up in his face, I am OK with that.

But there is a really good chance that he will build a contender in Edmonton and survive as a GM. I would say he has started to compile pretty good talent in Edmonton.
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WestCoastJoe
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Blitz wrote: He's always been a high stat quarterback. Last season he finished with higher passing percentages and a higher quarterback efficiency average than Travis Lulay.

However, Rays quarterback stats only tell part of the story. Edmonton's offence finished sixth in first downs, fifth in touchdown passes, and sixth in scoring last year, in spite of Ray's great stats....and he had some very good receivers to throw to and a running game that was solid.

Ray always seems to pass for high percentage and put up a lot of passing yards. The game on Saturday night was a typical Ricky Ray night but the points on the socreboard were also a reflection that while Ray puts up great stats the scoreboard does not correspond to those stats the way they should.

Why not? Its not that Ray just dumps off...every quarterback needs to do that at times against the blitz but when Ray does. He thinks nothing of dumping a two yard pass to a back when he needs second and ten. There is a time to dump and a time to take that shot downfield, even if the percentage is less.
Ray has had amazing regular season stats. But he has also come up huge in two Grey Cup victories, being the MVP of both. That is clutch. To me this discussion would seem to come down to whether Ray is my kind of quarterback or your kind of quarterback. Well he is my kind of quarterback.

And a quarterback's style can be short passes like Dickenson and Ray, or bombs away like Casey Printers, or a combination of both like Travis Lulay. Just get the job done.
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:wink: :wink:
WestCoastJoe wrote:For me at least, as much as this is a discussion of Ricky Ray's merits as a QB, it is also a discussion of Eric Tillman's merits as a GM.

Along the lines of "someone's kind of quarterback," it must be obvious that I am no longer a fan of Eric Tillman. He is not "my kind of GM." He may well build a contender in Edmonton. He has built contenders and championship teams before. But his style with the media rankles for me. I don't buy what he is selling. So if the Ricky Ray trade blows up in his face, I am OK with that.

But there is a really good chance that he will build a contender in Edmonton and survive as a GM. I would say he has started to compile pretty good talent in Edmonton.
I don't like Eric Tillman. I would be happy to see this trade blow up in his face and for the Argos to have a successful season, for the good of the league and as a reward to David Braley for his willingness to bail out troubled franchises. I don't know whether that puts me in the majority or the minority. I've always felt like I was swimming against the tide on Lionbackers. Now that Javy Glatt has retired, Jacques Chapdelaine has won another Grey Cup and Anton McKenzie and Kierrie Johnson have been getting love on this site, I'll have to find another unpopular cause. :wink:
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B.C.FAN wrote::wink: :wink:
WestCoastJoe wrote:For me at least, as much as this is a discussion of Ricky Ray's merits as a QB, it is also a discussion of Eric Tillman's merits as a GM.

Along the lines of "someone's kind of quarterback," it must be obvious that I am no longer a fan of Eric Tillman. He is not "my kind of GM." He may well build a contender in Edmonton. He has built contenders and championship teams before. But his style with the media rankles for me. I don't buy what he is selling. So if the Ricky Ray trade blows up in his face, I am OK with that.

But there is a really good chance that he will build a contender in Edmonton and survive as a GM. I would say he has started to compile pretty good talent in Edmonton.
I don't like Eric Tillman. I would be happy to see this trade blow up in his face and for the Argos to have a successful season, for the good of the league and as a reward to David Braley for his willingness to bail out troubled franchises. I don't know whether that puts me in the majority or the minority. I've always felt like I was swimming against the tide on Lionbackers. Now that Javy Glatt has retired, Jacques Chapdelaine has won another Grey Cup and Anton McKenzie and Kierrie Johnson have been getting love on this site, I'll have to find another unpopular cause. :wink:
I am not sold on JC completely BCFAN ;), if that helps, continue the cause for him. McKenzie has found his groove and I was at the end of my rope with him and our start last season, I was wrong on that front. :cool:
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If they had better field goal kicking and less penalties, Argos could have won that game so they actually looked better than their eastern rivals. Argos are best in the East after week one.lol
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