The Ricky Ray Game, June 30, 2012

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Blitz
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B.C.FAN wrote::wink: :wink:
WestCoastJoe wrote:For me at least, as much as this is a discussion of Ricky Ray's merits as a QB, it is also a discussion of Eric Tillman's merits as a GM.

Along the lines of "someone's kind of quarterback," it must be obvious that I am no longer a fan of Eric Tillman. He is not "my kind of GM." He may well build a contender in Edmonton. He has built contenders and championship teams before. But his style with the media rankles for me. I don't buy what he is selling. So if the Ricky Ray trade blows up in his face, I am OK with that.

But there is a really good chance that he will build a contender in Edmonton and survive as a GM. I would say he has started to compile pretty good talent in Edmonton.
I don't like Eric Tillman. I would be happy to see this trade blow up in his face and for the Argos to have a successful season, for the good of the league and as a reward to David Braley for his willingness to bail out troubled franchises. I don't know whether that puts me in the majority or the minority. I've always felt like I was swimming against the tide on Lionbackers. Now that Javy Glatt has retired, Jacques Chapdelaine has won another Grey Cup and Anton McKenzie and Kierrie Johnson have been getting love on this site, I'll have to find another unpopular cause. :wink:
You stood in the face of adversity bold and courageous B.C. Fan, especially in your support of Jaques Chapdelaine. And probably there was no tougher critic on this board than myself regarding him...for a number of years I thought JC would send me to the psych ward. I see the metamorphosis of Jaques Chapdelaine last season as a miracle whereas you always believed that he was always made of the right stuff. Eiethe way, things are good right now...and I've become a big JC fan.

Your comment regarding Eric Tillman, I believe has a lot to do with the comments regarding the Ricky Ray trade. I think the fact that it was Eric Tillman who traded Ricky Ray impacts some football fans views.

I really don't think the trade was about Eric Tillman's ego. He's too smart a general manager to make a decision just based on ego. I don't believe Tillman wanted his Eskimos to just be respectable...he wants to win it all, as he has in the past and felt that the Ricky Ray era needed to end in orfer to do that. As for the trade, it wasn't great but it wasn't horrible either.

For WestCoastJoe I have a preferance in terms of quarterback style. I really believe the CFL game is best sutied to a mobile quarterback. When you look back at most of the outstandign ones..from Jackie Parker to Russ Jackson, Ron Lancaster, Joe Kapp, Warren Moon, Matt Dunnigan, Tracy Ham, etc. they could all break down a defense with their legs as well as their arms.

Of courser there have been some excellent pocket passing quarterbacks from Sam Etcheverry to Anthony Cavillo, Dave Dickenson, and Ricky Ray. However, pure pocket passing quarterbacks have to really excell at what they do. Quarterbacks like Anthony Cavillo and Dave Dickenson read defenses very quickly, had very quick releases, and threw downfield with high accuracyAlso, while not highly mobile, quarterbacks like Dickenson and Cavillo have also been cagy, smart runners who have shown the ability to take off with the football at critical times to make big plays.

Ricky Ray is not my style of quarterback because he does not read defenses quickly, does not have a quick release, and dumps off too often when he should go downfield. I see him now as a very good but not an exceptional quarterback.

Travis Lulay only completed 58% of his passes last season. But he is a more dangerous quarterback than Ricky Ray because he challenges defenses more, he can roll out and put pressure on the edge, and he can break a defense down with his legs.

Yes Ricky Ray won two Grey Cups for Edmonton. In 2003 he lead a very talented Eskimo team to a first place finish in the West and a Grey Cup victory over Montreal. That was the last time the Eskimos ever finished first in the West. In 2005, Jaason Maas replaced a struggling Ricky Ray to lead the third place Eskimos to a Western Championship win over our Leos and then Ray came back and played lights out in the Grey Cup game.

In the first half of the 2000's most defenses were not as sophisticated as they have been for the past six seasons. Defensive coordinators like Rich Stubler and Dave Ritchie led the way to new ways of playing defenses with multiple formations, zone blitzes, nickelbacks, dimebacks, and different personell packages.

Since 2005, when they finished in third place the Eskimos have often struggled. For the first time in 35 years the Eskimos missed the playoffs in 2006 and missed them again in 2007. The Eskimos finished fouth in the West in 2008 but became the crossover team. The Eskimos finished third in the West in 2009 but missed the playoffs again in 2010 before finishing in second place last season and losing to our Leos in the Western Championship. While Edmonton's overall lack of success for a number of seasons can't all be laid on Ricky Ray, the fact is that Edmonton has not been able to return to those glory with Ray at quarterback for a number of seasons now...and last season, when they finally returned to having a good team, they did it on the back of Stubler defensee, as the Eskimo offence finished sixth in points scored in the eight team league.

Sometimes you have to turn the page. Edmonton could have stayed wth the status quo or taken a risk. They've taken a risk that could make things worse but the risk also offers a potentially greater reward than they were getting with Ray at quarterback and his salary was onerous to boot.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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Toppy Vann
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I really don't think the trade was about Eric Tillman's ego. He's too smart a general manager to make a decision just based on ego. I don't believe Tillman wanted his Eskimos to just be respectable...he wants to win it all, as he has in the past and felt that the Ricky Ray era needed to end in order to do that. As for the trade, it wasn't great but it wasn't horrible either.
Not sure what player back in a Ray trade would have made anyone happy with that trade and I do think that the public perception of Eric Tillman here doesn't help. Perception aside he has pulled rabbits out of the hat repeatedly with this type of move in Sask and he himself puts this trade in the same light of the things he did there.

Quite frankly the safest thing to have done was keep plodding along with Ricky Ray as their HoF destined QB and keep working on the other parts to get a winner.

Quite shocking was that Toronto didn't win with their marquee QB vs the guy many of us (ME too) trashed as not worthy of the trade.

The proof will be in the pudding. Will the Esks manage to keep winning and Jyles be good enough to make that happen? We will see.

I think (up until this trade) that ET is one of the top GMs in the CFL these days. Not sure about his HC and Rich Stubler parting ways but these teams dump AC's all the time.
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Blitz
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Toppy Vann wrote:
I really don't think the trade was about Eric Tillman's ego. He's too smart a general manager to make a decision just based on ego. I don't believe Tillman wanted his Eskimos to just be respectable...he wants to win it all, as he has in the past and felt that the Ricky Ray era needed to end in order to do that. As for the trade, it wasn't great but it wasn't horrible either.
Not sure what player back in a Ray trade would have made anyone happy with that trade and I do think that the public perception of Eric Tillman here doesn't help. Perception aside he has pulled rabbits out of the hat repeatedly with this type of move in Sask and he himself puts this trade in the same light of the things he did there.

Quite frankly the safest thing to have done was keep plodding along with Ricky Ray as their HoF destined QB and keep working on the other parts to get a winner.

Quite shocking was that Toronto didn't win with their marquee QB vs the guy many of us (ME too) trashed as not worthy of the trade.

The proof will be in the pudding. Will the Esks manage to keep winning and Jyles be good enough to make that happen? We will see.

I think (up until this trade) that ET is one of the top GMs in the CFL these days. Not sure about his HC and Rich Stubler parting ways but these teams dump AC's all the time.
I listened to Khavis Reed's pregame speech before his exhibition game with our Leos and I wanted to gag. You couldn't pull that sutff off with 13-14 year olds. The HC makes the call but Stubler is a very knowledgeable, innovative, and successful defensive coordinator...and has a hell of a lot more knowledge about defense that Khavis Reed ever will...so for Reed to not be liking what Stubler was doing in terms of executing the defense....when it was the reason for Edmonton's turnaround last season (and not the offence which finished sixth in scoring) you'd think he might have approached the situation differently.

However, Khavis Reed' alienating his defensive coordinator was our gain and I'm thrilled we have Stubler. Right now I think Tillman's only error in Edmonton was hiring Reed but then again I didn't think Kent Austin would be as good as he turned our to be in Saskatchewan so maybe Tillman has the HC decision right in Edmonton as well...but that isn't my view right now.
"When I went to Catholic high school in Philadelphia, we just had one coach for football and basketball. He took all of us who turned out and had us run through a forest. The ones who ran into the trees were on the football team". (George Raveling)
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WestCoastJoe
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http://www.edmontonjournal.com/sports/E ... story.html
Edmonton led 13-7 at halftime, then held on as Ray and the Argos ate into the lead in the final 30 minutes.

The Eskimos held the edge in field position in the first half while the Argonauts were undisciplined, taking 11 penalties for 61 yards.

The flags continued in the second half and proved costly early in the fourth quarter. Down 19-11, Ray threw a purrfect 18-yard rainbow touchdown pass to wide receiver Spencer Watt only to have it called back for holding.
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WestCoastJoe
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http://www.edmontonsun.com/2012/07/01/ray-can-get-away
With 2:09 left and the Argos down 19-15 at their own 18, Ray did all he could to make his team’s final drive a winner.

He ran for a first down, but the drive stalled with 22 seconds left when Chad Owens was stopped on a third-down gamble on the Eskimos’ 32-yard line.
“They were pretty patient all night, playing zone coverage and making us throw the ball underneath,” said Ray. “It was no different on that last drive. We made some plays to get it down there. They just kinda made us throw it underneath on a few plays, rallied up and made some good tackles.

“Hats off to them. They’re a good football team. They played us really well. We’ve got some things we have to clean up, like (16) penalties and doing a better job in the red zone, coming away with touchdowns.”
Everybody expected Ray to put up some pretty decent completion percentage numbers and he came through on that count.

Ray completed 29 of 39 attempts for 289 yards and threw the game’s only TD pass, to Cory Boyd in the first half.

The Eskimos defence did little to give Ray much of a welcome back home, sacking their former quarterback three times.
I've always thought Ray was a premier quarterback. IMO the best QB in the CFL in his time in Edmonton. And going straight into the CFL Hall of Fame. He wasn't along for the ride in those Grey Cup wins. He was absolutely instrumental in their victories.

He was not every fan's favourite. And for at least one GM, not his kind of quarterback.

I've been very happy with our QBs here in B.C.: Dave Dickenson, Casey Printers, Buck Pierce and Travis Lulay.

But I also thought Ricky Ray gave Edmonton a chance to win every time on the field. And that hasn't changed. He gave a weak Argonauts team a chance to win, on the road, against a team jacked up to play him. Just IMO ...
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IMO Esks and Argos will both end up in last place. Argos could have easily beaten Esks if they had taken a few less penalties.
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WestCoastJoe
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DanoT wrote:IMO Esks and Argos will both end up in last place. Argos could have easily beaten Esks if they had taken a few less penalties.
The league looks pretty even this year, after the Lions and the Stampeders. And the Esks and Argos are good candidates for last place.
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WestCoastJoe wrote:http://www.edmontonsun.com/2012/07/01/ray-can-get-away
With 2:09 left and the Argos down 19-15 at their own 18, Ray did all he could to make his team’s final drive a winner.

He ran for a first down, but the drive stalled with 22 seconds left when Chad Owens was stopped on a third-down gamble on the Eskimos’ 32-yard line.
“They were pretty patient all night, playing zone coverage and making us throw the ball underneath,” said Ray. “It was no different on that last drive. We made some plays to get it down there. They just kinda made us throw it underneath on a few plays, rallied up and made some good tackles.

“Hats off to them. They’re a good football team. They played us really well. We’ve got some things we have to clean up, like (16) penalties and doing a better job in the red zone, coming away with touchdowns.”
Everybody expected Ray to put up some pretty decent completion percentage numbers and he came through on that count.

Ray completed 29 of 39 attempts for 289 yards and threw the game’s only TD pass, to Cory Boyd in the first half.

The Eskimos defence did little to give Ray much of a welcome back home, sacking their former quarterback three times.
I've always thought Ray was a premier quarterback. IMO the best QB in the CFL in his time in Edmonton. And going straight into the CFL Hall of Fame. He wasn't along for the ride in those Grey Cup wins. He was absolutely instrumental in their victories.

He was not every fan's favourite. And for at least one GM, not his kind of quarterback.

I've been very happy with our QBs here in B.C.: Dave Dickenson, Casey Printers, Buck Pierce and Travis Lulay.

But I also thought Ricky Ray gave Edmonton a chance to win every time on the field. And that hasn't changed. He gave a weak Argonauts team a chance to win, on the road, against a team jacked up to play him. Just IMO ...
I expect Ricky Ray to have a successful season in Toronto. He's playing for a Head Coach who was a very successful offensive coordinator in Toronto and has brought that offensive system to Toronto. Ricky Ray is the closest CFL starting quarterback, in terms of style, to Anthony Cavillo. Jasson Mass is his quarterback coach in Toronto..a perosn he was a great friend with in Edmonton and there is a lot of trust there. Ray has a much better offensive line in Toronto than he had in Edmonton. Boyd is a powerful back who can also catch the football out of the backfield. Toronto also lured away an outstanding defensive coordinator in Chris Jones and his defense should provide Ray with good field position and take a lot of pressure off the offence. Montreal is a weaker team this season, Winnipeg still has its offensive struggles, and Hamilton, while on paper, looks to be the most improved team in the East, still has to go out and prove it with a quarterback who is on the downside of his career. There is no reason why Toronto can't be playing in the Grey Cup game. Ricky Ray still has to adjust not only to a new city and new teammates. He also has to adjust to not being an Eskimo after so long and he has to learn a new offensive system which is very different than the one he was used to playing in, in terms of reads and approach.

Tillman wanted a more athletic, more mobile quarterback who can pressure a defense with his legs as well as his arm. He also wanted or felt he needed the $250,000 in capo space that the trade freed up. He needed a kicker and got one. He also got a first round draft choice in the 2012 draft that should bolster their non-import talent in the future.

I don't believe that we will be really able to assess this trade with enough perspective until the 2013 season has been completed. I like the trade for Toronto, which has struggled at the quarterback positiion for too long and a veteran starter was a good way to go. In Edmonton, for many fans, Ricky Ray was an icon who won them two Grey Cups, a future Hall of Famer, and a quarterback who had a high completion average who was poised in the pocket. A lesser number saw Ray as a one dimensional quarterback who was too laid back.

You're right WCJ...Ricky Ray was full value for his Grey Cup wins...but those wins took place many years ago now. Edmonton has not been to the Big Dance since 2005 and that year, they were a third place team that got hot in the playoffs and perhaps lucky too in being able to beat our Leos in the 2005 WDF...a game we should have won with the talent we had. Since then Edmonton has mostly struggled although they had a comeback season last year with a new HC, a revitalized defense, and a more solid running game.

There have been many excellent quarterbacks who have been traded during the history of the CFL and Tillman has not been the only one to pull the trigger on an experienced quarterback who had a successful track record.

I would have preferred Ray to stay in Edmonton...I feel it would have been better for our Loes....we knew what we were facing in Ricky Ray...and that made it easier to prepare defensively.
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WestCoastJoe
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This post is about Ricky Ray, not the trade.

Ray completed 29 of 39 for 74.4%, for 298 yards and one TD. His rating was 104.4. Despite pressure and 3 sacks. I would call that amazing. He got the team in position to possibly win the game at the end. For me, as a fan, of football, I could not ask for anything more from a QB. He was calm, cool and gave his team confidence. And this Argo team is not very good IMO. (Plus 3 carries for 24 yards for an "immobile quarterback")

Just the stats of a losing quarterback? I would argue strongly against that view.

http://www.cfl.ca/article/despite-loss- ... gos-huddle
Despite loss, Ray brings sense of calm to Argos' huddle July 03, 2012 09:00 PM

Jeff Krever CFL.ca Staff
It’s not easy to convince any sports fan, let alone one from Toronto, to find comfort in losing. But with Saturday’s 19-15 loss at Commonwealth Stadium, Argos fans should try to do just that.

The reality is this: one dropped pass in the end zone, two missed chip shots, and a holding penalty stood in the way of an Argos win. All of those are correctable issues, including the biggest one of all – team discipline.
Ray gave his team a chance to win. As he has done over the years with some weak teams in Edmonton, in the latter years of the Danny Maciocia regime.

And if his team had pulled it out, many fans would still not buy into what he brings to a team.
“It came down to a couple plays in the red zone where we weren’t able to make one play, and another one got called back,” first-year Head Coach Scott Milanovich told reporters after Saturday’s game. “In a close game like this when you’re on the road, you’ve got to make those plays, and we weren’t able to do that today.”

Considering that the Argos were flagged 18 times for a total of 118 yards, it seems remarkable that they out-gained the Eskimos on offence by a net of 57 yards. Actually, it’s remarkable they even made a game out of it.

That’s just what 32-year-old Ricky Ray brings to the table, and it’s something the Argos have been missing since Damon Allen closed the book on his illustrious CFL career in 2007.
"Considering that the Argos were flagged 18 times for a total of 118 yards, it seems remarkable that they out-gained the Eskimos on offence by a net of 57 yards. Actually, it’s remarkable they even made a game out of it."

"That’s just what 32-year-old Ricky Ray brings to the table, and it’s something the Argos have been missing since Damon Allen closed the book on his illustrious CFL career in 2007."

:thup:
The way he stands so poised in the pocket; his sense of when he needs to get rid of the ball; his ability to float passes over defenders and into the hands of his receivers with just the purrfect amount of touch – it’s all so amazing to watch. It just feels magical.
That is how I see it.
Despite a steep learning curve with an entirely different team, coach, city, and offence, Ray put all of those skills on display for Argos fans and the rest of the CFL on Saturday.

“He came out and played as I expected him to,” said Milanovich. “It’s a team game. That’s what we talked about this morning in our meeting and that’s what we’re going to continue to talk about during the season. Ricky did as well as he could do.”
"Despite a steep learning curve with an entirely different team, coach, city, and offence, Ray put all of those skills on display for Argos fans and the rest of the CFL on Saturday."

That is how I see it.
If one thing’s certain, it’s that not many fans at Commonwealth Stadium would’ve doubted him when the Argos took possession with around a minute left in the game trailing by four points. Esks fans know from experience that more often than not, Ray will burn you for even giving him the chance.
That is how I see it.
“I think everybody believed we could win it right up until the very end,” said Milanovich. He had a couple of big plays, I think we had to scramble on that first down when we had it down around the 35 yard line and we were trying to take a shot to the end zone. We hit a couple of check-downs and they did a good job of rallying to the ball, and they played good defence.”

So in his Argos debut, it just wasn’t in the cards.
Win or lose though, there’s one thing we can take from Saturday’s game: With Ray under centre, you know you have a chance to win every game, no matter what else does or doesn’t go your way. And that’s something Argos fans need to enjoy every second of, because it’s been a rarity in Toronto.
That is how I see it.
Ray said he takes responsibility for a number of those mistakes, but understands most of them will be eliminated as the offence grows and everyone becomes more comfortable. He also credits his former team for playing a great game.

“We did some things that we need to clean up,” Ray said following the game. “Obviously penalties, and doing a better job in the red zone – coming away with touchdowns. Hats off to them, they’re a good football team. They played us really well.”

In the meantime, as Ray tries to become more comfortable in the offence, Argos fans can already take comfort in knowing they’ll be cheering for one of the top passers the game’s ever seen. And what a pleasure that will be.
Esks fans showed on Saturday that Ray will always have a special place in their hearts, and they’ll never forget what he’s accomplished in nine seasons of memories since he joined the Eskimos in 2002 (he spent one year with the NFL’s New York Jets).

Starting next Saturday with their home opener against the Calgary Stampeders, Argos fans will get a chance to show the same kind of endearment. He’s all yours now, Argos fans – don’t take him for granted.
As a Lions' fan, I've always had the feeling that he gave the Eskimos a chance to win every time out.
..........

My comments are about Ricky Ray, as a CFL quarterback. IMO and that of the voters, Travis Lulay is the most effective QB in the league (and the one I would like for my team), but IMO Ricky Ray is right there, near that same level, still.
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Good insights WCJ. It is just one game of 18 in a long season that we know can start great and finish poorly or start bad and win a Grey Cup as the Lions did last year.

Too often the micro-analyzation (Geroy coined that term or some variant thereof ?) of a player in a game can lead to trashing your QB for the team's mistakes.

This is just one game but if you were a conspiracy theorist about the CFL wanting Ray in Toronto and the Eskimos saying 'oh yeah- we'll toss in the towel for next season and just give you our QB for whatever you want to send our way' then this loss to the Esks would add fuel to the fire. Esks win as Toronto had to make the trade look good to the Eskimo fans. How is that for helping the conspiracy theorists? ( I AM NOT SUCH A THEORIST).

It was a good win though for the Esks as at the end of the year when playoffs come only a few fans will do the analysis or even recall how many wins were due to the other team dropping balls in the end zone or missing chip shot field goals. If you were ET you had to be sweating bullets in that game especially as the score was so close.
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Toppy Vann wrote:Good insights WCJ. It is just one game of 18 in a long season that we know can start great and finish poorly or start bad and win a Grey Cup as the Lions did last year.

Too often the micro-analyzation (Geroy coined that term or some variant thereof ?) of a player in a game can lead to trashing your QB for the team's mistakes.

This is just one game but if you were a conspiracy theorist about the CFL wanting Ray in Toronto and the Eskimos saying 'oh yeah- we'll toss in the towel for next season and just give you our QB for whatever you want to send our way' then this loss to the Esks would add fuel to the fire. Esks win as Toronto had to make the trade look good to the Eskimo fans. How is that for helping the conspiracy theorists? ( I AM NOT SUCH A THEORIST).

It was a good win though for the Esks as at the end of the year when playoffs come only a few fans will do the analysis or even recall how many wins were due to the other team dropping balls in the end zone or missing chip shot field goals. If you were ET you had to be sweating bullets in that game especially as the score was so close.
Conspiracy? LOL ... Nah I don't buy that either, Toppy.

Tillman made the trade for his own reasons. But there is no way I believe it was part of a league mandated conspiracy.
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The Argos will be better with Ray at the controls once they settle down and eliminate the mental mistakes. His first game though, was terrible. Ray squandered countless opportunities to pick up first downs by dumping the ball off to a stationary Cory Boyd at the line of scrimmage. Boyd had 9 yards on 10 catches, most of which led directly to punts. I could not imagine poorer play design, execution or QB decision making. Take away the 5-yard touchdown catch and the other 9 passes might as well have been thrown out of bounds. Take away those 9 meaningless completions and Ray was effectively 20 for 39 or 51.3%. Ray had opportunities to make plays and win the game and he failed over and over and over again.
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B.C.FAN wrote:The Argos will be better with Ray at the controls once they settle down and eliminate the mental mistakes. His first game though, was terrible. Ray squandered countless opportunities to pick up first downs by dumping the ball off to a stationary Cory Boyd at the line of scrimmage. Boyd had 9 yards on 10 catches, most of which led directly to punts. I could not imagine poorer play design, execution or QB decision making. Take away the 5-yard touchdown catch and the other 9 passes might as well have been thrown out of bounds. Take away those 9 meaningless completions and Ray was effectively 20 for 39 or 51.3%. Ray had opportunities to make plays and win the game and he failed over and over and over again.
The 2nd and long production of RR has always been at question, even in his good years with the Esks. That is stat padding, which looks good on the resume (limited INT's and a solid completion record), but doesn't translate into great football to watch. Now conversely, Durant utilized that dunk pass to his SB and RB's vs the Tigercats and had great success, especially against Knowlton surprisingly. The main difference was the Rider receivers were getting the ball in stride, not so much for the Argos.
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WestCoastJoe
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Once again this post is about Ricky Ray, not the trade, which is a huge issue on it's own.

1 TD called back. 2 chippie FGs missed. Driving the field at the end.

If the Argos had won, those that don't like Ray as a QB would still make light of his contributions and ability it seems to me.

Yardage. TDs. Scrambling. Durability. Coolness under fire. Leadership. So what? Still don't like him. Two Grey Cup MVPs. So what? LOL

It doesn't diminish my acknowledgment of what I see as his great ability that he oftentimes beat the Lions. That is where the recognition started.

Said my bit. I would just go back to the comments made by Kent Austin in evaluating Ricky Ray. Those mean more than anything I could say.
Kent Austin, when asked to evalutate Ricky Ray, said: "How much time do you have? He's mature. He's composed. He really understands what it takes to win. He understands defences. He understands the offence they're running against the defences they play. He makes great decisions. He's accurate. He's tough. He's durable. He doesn't get hurt. He's got a knack to get out of trouble. He can break tackles. He's stronger than he looks. Is that enough for you?"
As I see this differently than Blitz and BCFAN, and as I've said my bit, I will leave the last word to them, if they choose to take it. :beer:

After Travis Lulay, I would rate Ricky Ray the next best QB in the league. Anthony is getting too old. Durant has had some bad years. Tate hasn't done much yet, in his brief time.

And it is not as if I want any quarterback except the one we have. Just acknowledging an opponent.
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