Damon Allen To Retire

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Robbie
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sj-roc wrote:I've gone back and re-read this whole thread again since its current resurrection and somehow it got me to thinking about our incredible 1994 playoff run.
And you may wonder whether I was the one who resurrected this thread in which I made lots of postings, and whether I'll always have to do a comparison of the 2000 playoff run as well.

Well first, no I definitely did not resurrect this thread, and I won't do a comparison of the 2000 playoff run although to answer your question that you posed, I did think about it. But I don't think the 2000 run will apply to your question because, while two of the QB players that I'll mention will likely be in the Hall of Fame and who played in the 2000 WDF and GC, a third QB player will not likely be inducted. And that third player is QB Nealon Greene who started with the Edmonton Eskimos in 2000 and in the WDSF after the Lions held a sizeable lead, Nealon Greene and the Eskimos valiantly fought back and threatened to tie the game late in the 4th quarter but kicker Sean Fleming missed a FG and the Lions held on the win 34-32.
sj-roc wrote:En route to our championship that year, we knocked off teams QBed by (in order) Allen, Doug Flutie and Tracy Ham, all of whom were starters for their respective teams and all of whom ended up in the HOF.

So my question is: other than the 1994 BC Lions, has any other team won the Grey Cup by eliminating three teams whose starting QBs during that same postseason all ended up in the HOF?
I also thought about the 2001 Calgary Stampeders - of all the Grey Cup wins that Wally Buono won, this is definitely the most Cinderella one. After knocking off Damon Allen and the defending BC Lions, Marcus Crandell and the Stampders managed to dispose the Eskimos in Edmonton 34-16 in the WDF and then Winnipeg Blue Bombers in the Grey Cup led by 2001 MOP Khari Jones. The Eskimos were quartered by Jason Maas at that time and it's unlikely he will enter the hall of fame and Khari Jones only has an outside chance.
sj-roc wrote:I haven't really thought through the answer to that one so it's possible there could be other teams. It might also be that there is a recent GC champion that doesn't yet have (but might eventually gain) this distinction because one or more of the defeated QBs in question isn't yet inducted or even eligible for induction.
Okay, the two players that are not in the hall of fame but will likely be inducted in the future are Dave Dickenson and Anthony Calvillo. And with that in mind, my answer is YES by using the 2004 Toronto Argonauts. In the 2004 EDSF, Damon Allen managed to avenge an individual from 10 years ago by winning 24-6 over the Hamilton Tiger-Cats who were quarterbacked by the now hall of famer Danny McManus. Then in the 2004 EDF in Montreal, the Argonauts managed to dispose future hall of famer Anthony Calvillo and the Alouettes 26-18. Finally we all know that in the 2004 Grey Cup the Argonauts managed to win 27-19 over future hall of famer Dave Dickenson and the BC Lions.

Now, if you make a possible prediction that Henry Burris will be inducted to the hall of fame in the future, then the 2005 Edmonton Eskimos can also apply when they defeated Burris and the Stampeders in the 2005 WDSF, then Dickenson and the Lions in the WDF, and then Calvillo and the Alouettes in the Grey Cup.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Robbie
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Robbie wrote:
sj-roc wrote:I haven't really thought through the answer to that one so it's possible there could be other teams. It might also be that there is a recent GC champion that doesn't yet have (but might eventually gain) this distinction because one or more of the defeated QBs in question isn't yet inducted or even eligible for induction.
Okay, the two players that are not in the hall of fame but will likely be inducted in the future are Dave Dickenson and Anthony Calvillo. And with that in mind, my answer is YES by using the 2004 Toronto Argonauts. In the 2004 EDSF, Damon Allen managed to avenge an individual from 10 years ago by winning 24-6 over the Hamilton Tiger-Cats who were quarterbacked by the now hall of famer Danny McManus. Then in the 2004 EDF in Montreal, the Argonauts managed to dispose future hall of famer Anthony Calvillo and the Alouettes 26-18. Finally we all know that in the 2004 Grey Cup the Argonauts managed to win 27-19 over future hall of famer Dave Dickenson and the BC Lions.

Now, if you make a possible prediction that Henry Burris will be inducted to the hall of fame in the future, then the 2005 Edmonton Eskimos can also apply when they defeated Burris and the Stampeders in the 2005 WDSF, then Dickenson and the Lions in the WDF, and then Calvillo and the Alouettes in the Grey Cup.
A few more possible examples:

In 1986 the Hamilton Tiger-Cats first won a best-of-two game series against the Toronto Argonauts to win the EDF. The Argonauts had future hall-of-famer QB Condredge Holloway. Then the 9-8-1 Tiger-Cats upset big time the 13-4-1 Edmonton Eskimos in the Grey Cup 39-15 in which both future hall-of-famer QB's Matt Dunigan and Damon Allen struggled.

Only a two game playoff series for the 1990 Winnipeg Blue Bombers who finished first in the east with a 12-6 record but only had an average quarterback, Tom Burgess, who will likely not be inducted. But in the EDF they had to contend with Matt Dunigan and the explosive offence Argonauts who put in 689 points for. And content they did by allow them 17 points in their 20-17 win, and then easily handled Tracy Ham and the Eskimos 50-11 in the Grey Cup

The 1993 Edmonton Eskimos were not a bad team at 12-6, but placed second in the west and faced possible future hall of famer is Kent Austin who is a 4 time Grey Cup winner (2 times as a coach) and who had great passing yardage in a few seasons, for the WDSF. The Eskimos won the WDSF 20-13 against Saskatchewan, and then upset Doug Flutie and the Stampeders 29-15 in Calgary in a snowstorm, then won the Grey Cup against Matt Dunigan and the 14-4 Winnipeg Blue Bombers with a score of 33-23.
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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Robbie
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Revisiting this topic given the fact that BC Lions site have updated their BC Lions All-Time Individual Records to 2016
http://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.net/wp ... ecords.pdf

It looks when it comes to those rare occasions in which great positive statistics does not make one extremely popular, the additional information that I found reinforces the great example of Damon Allen.

I stated before that:
Robbie wrote:
Wed May 28, 2008 8:59 pm
Damon Allen played for six different teams in his long 23-year career. In 10, 20, 30 years from now, which team would you associate him with? I have a feeling that most people would remember him either as an Eskimo given the fact that he won his first Grey Cup (as well as his second), or as an Argonaut given the fact that he won his final Grey Cup as well as his first Most Outstanding Player with Toronto.

However, if you take a look at his various statistics many of them were #1 or at least #2 while he was a BC Lion. In some cases, I'm ranking him as a BC Lion compared to his five other teams. In other cases, I'm ranking him as a BC Lion comparing to other BC Lions. You can see that many #1 or #2 statistic occurred when he was a BC Lion.

Total Number of Seasons with his Team
1) 7 seasons - BC Lions
2) 6 seasons - Edmonton Eskimos
3) 5 seasons - Toronto Argonauts

Total Number of Games as a Quarterback as a BC Lion
1) Roy Dewalt, 125 games
2) Damon Allen, 120 games
3) Joe Kapp, 91 games

Total Number of Seasons as a Quarterback as a BC Lion
1) Roy Dewalt, 8 seasons
2) Damon Allen, 7 seasons (tied)
2) Joe Paopao, 7 seasons

Longest Pass Completion
1) 109 yards (tied with 2 others) - Damon Allen to Alfred Jackson on August 21, 2002 as BC Lions.

Total Yards Passing in a Season
1) 5082 - 2005 with Toronto Argonauts
2) 4840 - 2000 with BC Lions
3) 4653 - 1997 with BC Lions


Total Number of Pass Completions in a Season
1) 378 - 1997 with BC Lions
2) 352 - 2005 with Toronto Argonauts
3) 324 - 2000 with BC Lions

Total Number of Pass Completion Percentage in a Season
1) 64.8 - 1997 with BC Lions
2) 64.1 - 2005 with Toronto Argonauts
3) 61.7 - 2000 with BC Lions
(minimum 200 attempts, so not counting his 2007 season)

Total Pass Rating
1) 102.7 - 2005 with Toronto Argonauts
2) 98.4 - 2000 with BC Lions
3) 93.5 - 1997 with BC Lions

(minimum 200 attempts, so not counting his 2007 or 1986 seasons)

Total Rushing Attempts
1) 136 - 1999 with BC Lions
2) 129 - 1991 with Ottawa Rough Riders
3) 124 - 1990 with Ottawa Rough Riders

Total Rushing Touchdowns
1) 8 - tied with 1997 and 1999 as BC Lions and 1991 Ottawa Rough Riders
Here are some more positive Damon Allen individual Lions records he set:

First and foremost:

PASSING - YARDS
Damon Allen - 27,621
Roy Dewalt - 22,863
Travis Lulay - 17,165
Joe Kapp - 16,536
Dave Dickenson - 13,573
Joe Paopao - 11,508
Doug Flutie - 9,579
Casey Printers - 9,180
Buck Pierce - 8,964
Don Moorhead - 8,689
Matt Dunigan - 8,285

Despite the fact that Damon Allen is #1 in terms of Lions career passing, I dare say everybody would say he's not as popular than Dewalt, Flutie, Dickenson, and possibly Lulay, Kapp, and Dunigan as well with small possibilities of Paopao, Pierce, and Printers. The only definitely person who is not as popular as Allen in that list is Don Moorhead who holds #9.

RUSHING - YARDS
Willie Fleming - 6,125
Jim Evenson - 5,708
Sean Millington - 4,984
John Henry White - 4,715
Larry Key - 4,523
Cory Philpot - 4,459
Andrew Harris - 4,259
Damon Allen - 4,147
Nub Beamer - 3,662

Allen is 8th which is actually amazing for a quarterback. That's more yardage than many other Lions running backs. That said, when you think of great Lions QB scramblers do you think of Allen? No. You would likely think of Flutie, Dunigan, and possibly Dickenson which would explain why he would get injured so often while with all due respect, much older Allen rarely if ever was injured during his time as a Lion. And while Jim Evenson is at #2 when it comes to ranking memorable running backs I dare say nobody would place him in the top 10, let alone #2.

Career Pass Attempts
3,421 - Damon Allen
2,898 - Roy Dewalt
2,137 - Travis Lulay
2,044 - Joe Kapp

Attempts by itself may not be a positive record, but everyone remembers Doug Flutie's 730 attempts in the exciting 1991 season.

Career Completions
2,037 - Damon Allen
1,705 - Roy Dewalt
1,350 - Travis Lulay

Completions, season
466 - Doug Flutie - 1991
378 - Damon Allen - 1997
371 - Jon Jennings - 2016

Pass completions is certainly a good positive record. But when it comes to discussions about great QB-Receiver tandems Damon Allen is rarely discussed. Off the top of your head can you remember a great receiver during Allen's time as a Lion? Probably not. Perhaps it's because his receivers came and gone frequently. Ironically though I'm sure you all remember Ray Alexander, Darren Flutie, Matt Clark, Mike Trevathan, Jay Christenson from 1991 receiving passes from Doug Flutie.

Career TD passes
136 - Damon Allen
129 - Roy Dewalt
103 - Travis Lulay
98 - Joe Kapp

Aside from maybe the 109-yard TD pass to Alfred Jackson in 2002, was there any particular TD pass that was so memorable from Allen?
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
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DanoT
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Great post Robbie.
I just wanted to make one observation. The reason that we don't think of Allen as a great scrambler like Flutie, is because Allen wasn't so much a scrambler as he was a runner and that is why he ranks up there with the RBs.

Allen=best running QB in CFL history.
maxlion
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2 reasons for his relatively lower popularity:
1. Personality
2. Lack of outstanding performance in any given year. Much like Kevin Glenn, he was consistently "pretty good" for many years. Consistency doesn't excite or inspire fans. His years here were marked by so many 200 yard passing games. No question that he was an excellent rusher. But long passing plays are more exciting than a bunch of 8 yard runs.
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squishy35
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If anyone has a video of that 109 yard pass to Jackson from the 2002 Alouettes game......, It would be great to be posted to this thread.....
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Robbie
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DanoT wrote:
Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:22 pm
Great post Robbie.
I just wanted to make one observation. The reason that we don't think of Allen as a great scrambler like Flutie, is because Allen wasn't so much a scrambler as he was a runner and that is why he ranks up there with the RBs.
Yes, that's a good point in that scrambling is different from rushing, although statistically they are still recorded as rushing yardage. In the all-important 2000 Grey Cup game Allen rushed for two touchdowns in the red zone, which is much better than say Buck Pierce who couldn't get into the end zone after so many good chances in the 2008 WDF.
maxlion wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 1:25 pm
2 reasons for his relatively lower popularity:
1. Personality
2. Lack of outstanding performance in any given year. Much like Kevin Glenn, he was consistently "pretty good" for many years. Consistency doesn't excite or inspire fans. His years here were marked by so many 200 yard passing games. No question that he was an excellent rusher. But long passing plays are more exciting than a bunch of 8 yard runs.
I guess personality is harder to measure and observe, unless it's too obvious such as a player having disciplinary problems all the time. It's way too subjective to ask....."what is a good personality?"

I suppose only players with "good personalities" will win the Tom Pate Memorial Award as the criteria is: A player with outstanding sportsmanship and someone who has made a significant contribution to his team, his community and Association. The award winner must display these qualities such that it distinguishes him from his peers.

And in his long career Allen never won that award even as a long time veteran.
squishy35 wrote:
Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:21 pm
If anyone has a video of that 109 yard pass to Jackson from the 2002 Alouettes game......, It would be great to be posted to this thread.....
That play is ranked as one of the top-10 plays in Lions history (from 2007), but unfortunately the video link to this page is broken: https://www.bclions.com/2007/07/10/grea ... _number_8/
That said...will the receiver of that great play, Alfred Jackson, be considered one of the best receivers in Lions history? Not likely. :roll:
祝加拿大加式足球聯賽不列颠哥伦比亚卑詩雄獅隊今年贏格雷杯冠軍。此外祝溫哥華加人隊贏總統獎座·卡雲斯·甘保杯·史丹利盃。還每年祝溫哥華白頭浪隊贏美國足球大联盟杯。不要忘記每年祝溫哥華巨人贏西部冰球聯盟冠軍。
改建後的卑詩體育館於二十十一年九月三十日重新對外開放,首場體育活動為同日舉行的加拿大足球聯賽賽事,由主場的卑詩雄獅隊以三十三比二十四擊敗愛民頓愛斯基摩人隊。
祝你龍年行大運。
恭喜西雅图海鹰直到第四十八屆超級盃最終四十三比八大勝曾拿下兩次超級盃冠軍的丹佛野馬拿下隊史第一個超級盃冠軍。
maxlion
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It has been said that Damon was somewhat distant and reserved with fans and teammates. I don't know him personally, so can't say if this is true. But, generally, people who are thought to be distant and reserved will be less popular among fans than those who are outgoing and embrace a relationship with fans.

It is not so much a personality flaw as a characteristic which does not lend itself to a particular outcome.
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